Development Cycle Archive

Thread: IT 7-4: Experimentation Resource Quality

Phetro
Fri Mar 05, 2004 11:39 am
#66

No one asked for this change. No one needs this change. No one wants this change.


Simple enough? Get it together, or you're gonna find a LOT of empty servers soon, as your players migrate to games with developers that LISTEN to them.





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"Those of you who benefit others are merely average, and deserve no praise. Those of you who benefit others, and do so for no reward whatsoever, and do so regardless of cost to yourselves...you are the ones that are worthy."
Eola
Fri Mar 05, 2004 12:25 pm
#67






TouYuan wrote:



And for some reason it is ok for you all to insist, expect and feel you deserve reports from the unpaid players on TC... and you do not see that as a problem? Also, the players Audio is asking for reports from, just happen to be the same ones he comes by and flames on a rather constant basis in their own forum, what wouldgive him a inkling of a clue that these people would want to even take part in the same community as him, nevermind something more?





Yes, it's okay for us to insist on getting reports from people who play on TC. Forget that Audio has flamed people he's ONE person, he's not the entire contingent of board followers. The point of playing on the TC is to TEST game aspects, I can't reproduce my character on TC, I'm not going to grind him out again.


Does that make me less than you? Because I'm not a full time Tester? Does that make me part of an inferior community to you?


We're ALL the same community SWG players, and if you'd come around to that point of view maybe the interactions between Testers and those people who feel the final affects of your testing, would be smoother.





Eola Lasmy -- Master Weaponsmith, Master Artisan, Master Merchant
Part of Weyland Yutani Corporation
Ahazi Server: Tranquility, Theed: -3115, 5795
Force Sensitive Crafting my Behind
I've got 1 Million Monkeys and 1 Million Keyboards bet you they
integrate JTLS more smoothly than the Dev Team will.
Tensalis
Fri Mar 05, 2004 2:22 pm
#68

I just joined TC so not sure if the new publish weapons have filtered into vendors yet. Anyway, the weapons I've seen so far on test center have been pretty darned close to the standard we now enjoy in live. Durability is slightly down and ham is slightly up. Admittedly, those were all novice weapons though. Maybe the top level stuff (ie, with gated resources) will come down, but that's probably a good thing. As long as they don't drop below the power of the top novice weapons, is there really a problem? The pre-publish stuff won't be around forever and publish or no publish, the required level of super-elitism for effective pvp isn't going to be changed through a crafting system adjustment. I still haven't read any posts about people dropping their prices to compete with better weaponsmiths. Whatever happened to regular economics? Supply and demand folks.



----------------
Cowev Onun - Bloodfin. The Quenker Slayer 2000.
Also a 145th generation clone, drunkard, spice abuser, and pharamacuticals addict.
ak420
Fri Mar 05, 2004 3:58 pm
#69






SWG-Runesabre wrote:


Greetings!


I have reviewed this thread thus far. From what I have evaluated, here are the top concerns with the changes to experimentation in Publish 7:


1) Quality and frequency of certain rare resources. Certain resources spawn very infrequently and when they do they are usually low quality.

2) Variety in the crafting market. There aren't enough meaningful attributes that people buying crafted goods care about thus making it so every crafter will be experimenting on the same attributes for weapons, armor, etc. producing clone products.


The crafting designers will be evaluating the experimentation changes next week. I would greatly appreciate feedback based on actual testing on Test Center; that will provide the most meaningful feedback we can use for our evaluations.


Thank you!





annnddd....



the half dozen or so multi billionaire master 12 point armor and weaponsmiths will simply stock up on "pre patch" items... and the stuff they already sell for 750k will inflate further...


making the disgustingly rich get richer and the poor get poorer. New crafters just wont have a chance at all.





Syclya
Vendor in Eternal Springs Mall, Dantooine (685, -6770 near agro outpost, look I-rie Composite on Planet map)
79% kinetic, 68% elec, 60% base Composite Full sets stocked at 300k
80% energy, 71% elec, 63% base Composite Full sets stocked at 300k
I'm looking to hire mining contractors and hide hunters
I-rie Composite Armor
vonbloodworth
Fri Mar 05, 2004 4:59 pm
#70

maby they want to bring the #'s on weapions and equipment down to a more reasionable level?


the #'s in this game are starting to read like some FF title....


"you have hit for 99999"


im starting to think this is for one reaion only...to lower the bar.


thuss making content more challanging...and i bet they have some more changes comming to better the game to.like armor...could this be step one to making comp NOT the end all be all of armor?


im thinking yes....





Trucegore vonbloodworth,wonderhome
Mayor/guild master

Pikeman, Polition, Merchant,Master Artisan
***** Im easy to talk to once people get to know me, but holding my personal audiences on a throne of bloody skulls tends to put them off at first. *****
Ainwyn
Sun Mar 07, 2004 9:09 am
#71

Does anyone else find it "interesting" that the last post by Thunderheart on this topic (in the thread in the weaponsmith forum) was on the 2nd and was in defense of his suggestion that all us informed crafters should keep quiet about this and stockpile current stuff in light of the upcoming changes. In that post, Thunderheart claimed he was trying to be chatty (paraphrasing) and so maybe he should jsut be dry and informative instead. That was the last he said on this topic at all (that I can find).

I haven't been on test and tested how this is going to change armorsmithing. I am not quite a master (4/3/4/4) on live and -hate- a never ending grind so am not rising to armorsmith in a day even on my main character (novel concept, I want to -enjoy- playing her). If I could copy her as she is to TC, I would happily run the not quite master tests and see how it stacks against what I am doing on Live.

Without exact duplication of resources and skill level (including any cloth attachments) between a Live armorsmith and a Testing armorsmith, there really is no substansive way to quantify how the changes to experimentation will really affect final quality. The resources on TC are different than the ones on the Live servers. Under the present system, the armorsmith skill levels would likely be different as well since it is highly unlikely a single player would have gone through the expense of getting clothing attachments on both servers.

From all I have read, this crafting system will reward the character with more money, the one which has been in game longer or the one whose player has spent real-life money to purchase in-game credits and/or resources.

I recently left another SOE game because of my utter disgust at the prevalence (and complete disregard for the presence of) RL money running the game, not just in the guise of "dedicated" vs casual player (and I was one of the pretty obsessive players, playing on average probably close to 80 or 90 hours a week) but in the specific of what one player is willing to pay in RL money for items, currancy, and even characters or their "skill" increases.

The thing I have enjoyed most about SWG has been the crafting system. This will likely destroy a large portion of that enjoyment because I will (again) refuse to compete with the RL money thrown around and thus will be relagated to a very very very small portion of the game (and in-game will likely only have those customers come to me out of A) pity and loyalty to a friend or B) because they can't afford any better (and I would reduced to pricing at about the cost of acquiring the resources to make my goods even attractive at all). It would be more lucrative to harvest resources for the "real" armorsmiths, those whose only virtue is having been around longer or using RL money to augment their in-game economics.

-Tess Ainwyn
Temenos Island, Naboo
Kettemoor



Tess (Ainwyn) Dle'kkar
12 point, RIS certified, Master Armorsmith
Wild Side Armor
Rogues Landing, Corellia (4404,2619)
Kettemoor
http://www.rogueslanding.com/wildside/
Pahbi
Sun Mar 07, 2004 1:17 pm
#72

I wish SOE could do something other than nerf.... nerf.... nerf.... nerf.... nerf..... What really makes it disgusting is they nerf then use Blunderheart to try and convince us that WE asked for said nerf and as is Thunderduds habit, usual, he uses ZERO evidence to support the claim.


I've gotta hand it to SOE for having the nerve to implement nerf after nerf after nerf in the face of growing MMO competition. City of Heroes out soon, Lineage 2 out next month, and of course the big daddy World of Warcraft out sometime this year.


- Pahbi
HighGround
Sun Mar 07, 2004 7:30 pm
#73

There is nothing wrong with the current crafting system. Itis very fun, enjoyable, rewarding, and allows each crafter to produce unique custom made products which gives individual crafters a sense of pride in their work. Many of my close crafting friends areplanning to leave the game shortly after this nerf goes live because they forsee crafting to no longer be fun. By the way, the patch notes say nothing of fun or better crafted items, it says "more interesting, challenging, and easier to understand." - sugar coated wording for NERF.


I'm really dissapointed with all the nerfs I've seen in this game. This crafting nerf serves one purpose, to reduce the power of weapons and resists of armor all in preparation for the upcoming combat revamp -and just the sound of "revamp" scares me. I imagine masters of elite combat professions shouting "kaadu hunting party forming" in theed. Groups of 15+ elite members just to solo the borgle bat cave, and krayt dragons? Impossible. It seems like with each balance and revamp comes MOBs with higher HAM and players with weaker weapons & armor.


I'd suggest leaving the crafting system alone, with a few exceptions. Keep the reduction of critical failures for masters as stated in publish 7. Crafters keep any and all components from a critical fail; so only thing we'd lose is the resources.


The crafting community does not want nerfed; the combat community does not want nerfed. Nerfs make the game less fun to play, and a game that is not fun is boring. Whatever happened to taking polls? This ner...er revamp should be voted on by the entire swg community. Announce the poll and let us decide if it goes into effect or stays as is.


I have said my peace.
Chickenlad
Mon Mar 08, 2004 5:22 am
#74

Utess is not a good representation of craftspeople, TH. I mean, Artisan experimentation for swoops is a single line craft! That means, I only have one thing to put all my points in!


...and, it relies ononly 2resources (non-Fe and Fe metal) and...those resources need to haveonly 1high quality! Shock resistance! That is not a great representation of every other crafting profession! Sub-components? Multiple resource stats? Those are the epitome of most crafts.


Scrap this "enhancement" to the crafting system. You've done a GREAT job with other aspects of combat to prevent people from doing things like soloing Krayts. Ham increases, resistance changes, to name 2 (although the bleed nerf sucks - I mean, 4 years ago, Verant was able to program DoTs so that druids couldn't kite for full damage. In this time, you've actually LOST the ability to create coding where people running from bleeds cause the bleed tohave 1/10th the effect? Impressive. Mos...nfm.)


I am sure you can find another way to equalize the game without resorting to destroying the crafting professions. Please?


-Snift


Eola
Mon Mar 08, 2004 10:03 am
#75






vonbloodworth wrote:

maby they want to bring the #'s on weapions and equipment down to a more reasionable level?


the #'s in this game are starting to read like some FF title....


"you have hit for 99999"


im starting to think this is for one reaion only...to lower the bar.


thuss making content more challanging...and i bet they have some more changes comming to better the game to.like armor...could this be step one to making comp NOT the end all be all of armor?


im thinking yes....






I'm thinking you don't understand crafting.


This change will hurt Composite, it will also Hurt Ubese, Bone, Mibari and Special Furry Loincloths. Comp will still be the end all be all. It's just that the end will be far closer.



Eola Lasmy -- Master Weaponsmith, Master Artisan, Master Merchant
Part of Weyland Yutani Corporation
Ahazi Server: Tranquility, Theed: -3115, 5795
Force Sensitive Crafting my Behind
I've got 1 Million Monkeys and 1 Million Keyboards bet you they
integrate JTLS more smoothly than the Dev Team will.
Gyopi
Mon Mar 08, 2004 11:50 am
#76

I can't really comment on how the new crafting changes actually work because I hate grinding and I really don't feel like grinding a master crafter on testcenter. What I do know is that all of the sweeping changes every patch are horrible for the player economy. It sounds like the experimentation changes are going to make creating good pets almost impossible for me, but I should be able to make even better tissues. The vendor changes are going to make it so that I have to rely almost completely on doing special orders, and I won't even be able to put those special orders on a vendor because I won't be able to group things together in a bag and put them on a vendor anymore. Since publish 7, the tailor economy seems to be dominated by quest schematics and the loot which is required to make them. Both of these are impossible for many of us to get ourselves and those who were not rich before the patch have no chance of participating in this part of the economy. This is what I see happening with the experimentation changes too. Those who have old pre-patch items and people who have been able to stockpile the best resources will completely dominate the market and no amount of grinding to master will be able to help new players. For the majority of crafters, it is like going through a great stock market crash every publish and they have to struggle to survive until they see how the market settles out (which only usually lasts a week or two before the next big change). The "big time" players with huge stockpiles of cash and resources have enough of a buffer to smooth out some of the instability, but most crafters don't. I guess what I am saying is that is impossible to have a workable player economy when it is drastically and forcibly changed so often.







Momoko--Master Tailor near Kaadara on Lowca--
Come to Sitateya boutique at (5083 5804) on Naboo for elegant fashions, accessories, cute outfits, uniforms or any other clothing needs.
Eimi -- Master Bioengineer - Master Image Designer on Lowca--
Eimiko--Master Image Designer on TestCenter--

xxsyrusvb
Mon Mar 08, 2004 12:41 pm
#77

TH why did Logix Post get deleted? Tryin to silence what we all think? Its just he was smart enough to make it make sence to everyone. THis is a horrible "enhancement" I am really begging to see this game as 1 step forward, 2 steps back. For every INSANELY GREAT thing you guys give us your ruin or **edit** up 2 others...jesus you guys need to listen to your own ideas and actually think about them. Do devs ever write down PROS of this change and CONS of this change? Maybe you should



---Syrus'Odin Awa---


--Master TKM, Master Doctor--

Helping the world, one buff at a time...
Phetro
Mon Mar 08, 2004 2:14 pm
#78






Jumas wrote:




Some (not so) quick notes (apparently) :


I dont play on test center, so I haven't tested anything myself . . .






All of the crafters that HAVE tested it agree that it is a huge and unjustified nerf, plain and simple. You are one of the few people taking guesses at the outcome that are far too optimistic. ALL crafters will need more experimentation points to achieve what they do now with less. Is that difficult to understand, or to interpret? There are no two ways about this change--it is being forced on the player base against their will, and will greatly decrease the enjoyability of the game.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Those of you who benefit others are merely average, and deserve no praise. Those of you who benefit others, and do so for no reward whatsoever, and do so regardless of cost to yourselves...you are the ones that are worthy."
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