Development Cycle Archive
Thread: Friday Feature Jan 23rd Jedi Revamp
vysira
Sun Feb 01, 2004 9:57 pm
#794
Most mixed feelings on the whole thing. Good and bad are these ideas. First thing about the permadeath. I saw this from the start as a mixed thing. One permadeath is good in the way that if you accualy live to master jedi, your a god among players. Major bragging rights. Bad cause you could spend 6 mts, getting there then have a game crash or computer lockup and lose it. There for bad. As far as an over welmed Jedi Population, permadeath wouldn't have ever keep this down. You die, you make a new jedi character, you die make a new one and on and on. You only lost your current character, not the slot to make one with. So the population wouldn't have been affected by this at all. The skill drop I accualy see as a good punishment or what ever you want to call it for dieing. I have seen the XP requierments for each box, and WOW is all I can say. As for the those that think it should be worse. Mostly Bounty Hunter I mite add, would flip out if they lost a box in Bounty Hunter, I me throw a fit. So skill loss a good thing all the way around as I see it. Save for no more big time braging rights. On a side note to this too, No one seems to worry about the Bounty Hunter population growing out of hand? That is a little strange on its own. Soon we will here some one say "Call it Bounty Hunter Wars" sorry but the flaming and all that is very funny to me.
As for the part witch seems to plage everyones mind, is all the holo grinding for nothing. I am on that road myself. Worries me a little. But I do not belive SOE would just say "ha ha" you did all that for nothing! It would be like shooting yourself in the foot. So everyone that was along on the holo path will get fair compinsation I belive.
This is all assuming that the path to opening the Slot is changed. Becoming a Jedi is done after the Slot is opened. The slot only gives you potential to become a Jedi. What was the quote "No a Jedi you are not yet" Something along those lines, that Yoda spoke to Luke. So everyone assumes to much here. I don't assume to know one way or the other. Could mean either or, I will have to wait to find out.
Now if the quests are to open your slot. I have VERY mixed feelings about this one. First being this. Quests are mostly I would say 95% all combat related. So if thats the case there will be a flood of Bounty Hunters, Commandos and the like all over doing said quests.
How ever a nice possabiliy or medium if you will. Would be if these quests, simply pointed you in the right direction to witch classes to master. I belive I saw someone else mention this. And it could be a great way to do things. Though in realilty not much diffrent then the holocrons. Professions I do belive are the BEST way to open the slot, as it truely gives everyone a chance to play a Jedi. And lets face it EVERYONE that wants to open the slot bad enough will given enough time. Maybe 2 years, maybe 10. Sooner or later everyone who wanted it bad enough will have it, reguardless of the way it is done.
As for population control. Come now. This just is NOT possable. The only way it could happen is to limit the number allowed. And again this would be like shooting yourself in the foot. Not to mention VERY unfair. Everyone should have the ability to do what everyone else can do, so long as they worked just as hard to get it. Saying ok you 10% over there can have it, but you 90% over there can't. Is discrimination. Alot will more then likly disagree with that. But thats the nature of things. You have the ability and right ro disagree with it. And I praise you for it. In short nothing is perfect, things change agressivly sometimes dangerously. But if not for change we would all still be living in Caves grunting at each other. I will just go about my gaming, enjoying myself as best I can and hope for the best. I encoarage everyone else to do the same. What comes comes, what happens happens. So be it.
And the world keeps turning.
Catch you all on the flip side!
As for the part witch seems to plage everyones mind, is all the holo grinding for nothing. I am on that road myself. Worries me a little. But I do not belive SOE would just say "ha ha" you did all that for nothing! It would be like shooting yourself in the foot. So everyone that was along on the holo path will get fair compinsation I belive.
This is all assuming that the path to opening the Slot is changed. Becoming a Jedi is done after the Slot is opened. The slot only gives you potential to become a Jedi. What was the quote "No a Jedi you are not yet" Something along those lines, that Yoda spoke to Luke. So everyone assumes to much here. I don't assume to know one way or the other. Could mean either or, I will have to wait to find out.
Now if the quests are to open your slot. I have VERY mixed feelings about this one. First being this. Quests are mostly I would say 95% all combat related. So if thats the case there will be a flood of Bounty Hunters, Commandos and the like all over doing said quests.
How ever a nice possabiliy or medium if you will. Would be if these quests, simply pointed you in the right direction to witch classes to master. I belive I saw someone else mention this. And it could be a great way to do things. Though in realilty not much diffrent then the holocrons. Professions I do belive are the BEST way to open the slot, as it truely gives everyone a chance to play a Jedi. And lets face it EVERYONE that wants to open the slot bad enough will given enough time. Maybe 2 years, maybe 10. Sooner or later everyone who wanted it bad enough will have it, reguardless of the way it is done.
As for population control. Come now. This just is NOT possable. The only way it could happen is to limit the number allowed. And again this would be like shooting yourself in the foot. Not to mention VERY unfair. Everyone should have the ability to do what everyone else can do, so long as they worked just as hard to get it. Saying ok you 10% over there can have it, but you 90% over there can't. Is discrimination. Alot will more then likly disagree with that. But thats the nature of things. You have the ability and right ro disagree with it. And I praise you for it. In short nothing is perfect, things change agressivly sometimes dangerously. But if not for change we would all still be living in Caves grunting at each other. I will just go about my gaming, enjoying myself as best I can and hope for the best. I encoarage everyone else to do the same. What comes comes, what happens happens. So be it.
And the world keeps turning.
Catch you all on the flip side!
BanthaAbuser
Mon Feb 02, 2004 5:07 am
#795
The only sensible way to introduce Jedi (before the holo system)was therandom 'lottery' (force surge?) giving that profession to some players. No grind, stupid running from one profession to another in 2-3 days. Limited number of Jedi's, limited by the devs. And the Force would be unpredictable, just like in the movie.
Instead of that, we've recieved a way to become a Jedi (it's marketing, all right...).
Well, IMO whole idea of allowing players to become Jedi by hologrind was wrong. Hologrind system was probably designed as hard, but no one expected that macroing/grinding can be that effective. And that players will be so focused on the 'Jedi quest'. Seriously, I see more people here annoyed by the fact, that they can loose 3-4 stages of their hologrind, then about the balance of game.
My theory is that SOE counted all the players who are changing the professions fast and created prediction, what would happen in 3-4 months...
The only way possible for devs is to change rules - while new rules for playing Jedi were somehow explained, we still don't know, how would new "Jedi quest system" look like. And only logical way is to make it almost impossible to finish. Like collecting the 10+ artifacts that are dropped 1/1 000 000 by Dark Jedi Master, then reaching at the exact time (and only exact time - if not, reach it one month later 
) some location, doing a lot of things solo (Jedishould not be achievable by groups)...and that's only a begining.
) some location, doing a lot of things solo (Jedishould not be achievable by groups)...and that's only a begining.Current system simply failed by allowing players to reach Jedi too fast. The fact we don't see them often is only due to the fact, that they are easy prey for BH.
PS. To hologrinders - please, don't tell me about your 'sacrifice'... You pay for the game, you are (?) adults - if you want to play professions you hate and grind/macro 24/7/365 just too get flashy stick, instead of enyoing it - it's your game. Just don't tell me you need special attention.
vysira
Mon Feb 02, 2004 5:24 am
#796
Some of you, not all but some seem to be forgeting that fact. That maybe some of us enjoy grinding professions. And seeing what each has to offer. I myself am enjoying it a great deal. Yes my end goal is Jedi, but I am going to enjoy each profession as I go along. I Try to play out each profession as best I can. I am having fun with it. And I am sure others are as well. Thats the problem with the game. Everyone has diffrent ideas what they want out of it. And are going to rant and rave, threaten to quit whine and moan. Untill they get what it is they want out of the game. Sadly this isn't possable. Everyone can have everything they want. So I myself will make do with what is there, and enjoy it as it is. And enjoy it still once the dice rolls again and I am delt a new hand. Thats the nature of things.
And the world keeps on turning.
And the world keeps on turning.
BanthaAbuser
Mon Feb 02, 2004 5:40 am
#797
I actually respect those, who find fun in playing different professions. In 1-2 months I'll probably start moving to different class...
It's just very annoing when someone whines about his 'sacrifice'... You don't like cooking - don't play it.You hate holo for saing "Taylor" - ignore it. Game is so rich with opportunities to do something fun, that reaching Jedi in 2-3 months is simply not worth it.
Too bad Jedi were introduced asnon-randomclass. Really.
vysira
Mon Feb 02, 2004 6:01 am
#798
Also on a side not. Everyone that is saying there should be some sorta limit or cap on Jedi are all forgeting one thing. I will quote that line now.
"There should be a limit of Jedi characters on each server say 10 per server or maybe even 10%. So long as *I* and part of that small number so I can laugh at and tease everyone else"
There I thought I would just add that little tid bit.
And the world keeps on turning.
"There should be a limit of Jedi characters on each server say 10 per server or maybe even 10%. So long as *I* and part of that small number so I can laugh at and tease everyone else"
There I thought I would just add that little tid bit.
And the world keeps on turning.
TheWhaleShark
Mon Feb 02, 2004 10:14 am
#799
I've said it before, I'll say it again, and I'll keep saying it till I get banned.
Remove the Jedi.
They don't belong in this time period. There were 4 Jedi alive during Ep 4, 3 during Ep 5, and only ONE Jedi at the end of Ep 6.
Get rid of it completely.
Remove the Jedi.
They don't belong in this time period. There were 4 Jedi alive during Ep 4, 3 during Ep 5, and only ONE Jedi at the end of Ep 6.
Get rid of it completely.
LordRevanOfTheSea
Mon Feb 02, 2004 10:26 am
#800
As for completely removing Jedi, that would have to be a "No."
1) There were (technically) more Jedi than were in the movies. It's a big galaxy. Thousands of planets. There would be Jedi out there (continuity's sake).
2) If SOE removed Jedi, they'd have aflatline game. Next to no players. Compared to now, maybe, MAYBE (this is overexaggerating) 5% would keep playing. MAYBE. (Dev's sake).
You can't remove Jedi.
R2DADROID
Mon Feb 02, 2004 6:48 pm
#801
http://swg.stratics.com/content/news/archive/arc4-2001.php
Tuesday May 15 2001
"Shug Ninx, the LucasArts Content Supervisor, has also been spotted on the forums and he has written a huge reply to a thread by Bajeezus entitled "What price rarity?", the link is in the title if you want to read the original thread. Shug decided to open up a new thread for his reply. Here's an excerpt from what he had to say:
Tuesday May 15 2001
"Shug Ninx, the LucasArts Content Supervisor, has also been spotted on the forums and he has written a huge reply to a thread by Bajeezus entitled "What price rarity?", the link is in the title if you want to read the original thread. Shug decided to open up a new thread for his reply. Here's an excerpt from what he had to say:
3) Are Jedi too rare? Not rare enough?
Again, this is something that will really come out in Beta, but it's currently the one thing that keeps me up at night...
There will, without a doubt, be people who buy this game because they want to become Jedi and the fact that those players can't choose a "Jedi" class out of the box is worrisome to me. I never really think "Gee, I hope we're not making Jedi too common" (although Raph probably does), but the thought that we're making them too rare makes my stomach tie itself into knots."
First of all, it never did "come out in Beta," since no one unlocked a Jedi then, and no one tested Jedi but the devs "internally."
First of all, it never did "come out in Beta," since no one unlocked a Jedi then, and no one tested Jedi but the devs "internally."
We never got to decide what was too rare or not rare enough. Beta was abruptly ended so the game could come out.
Second of all, I wish Shug Ninx, aka Haden Blackman, Lucas Arts Producer, was able to make up his mind.
Most of the quotes I've found from him before the game came out said that Jedi will be "rare and mysterious."
He emphasized in many quotes that Jedi will "*NOT*" (direct quote) be running around all over the place because they will be rare and Jedi will "*NOT*" be playable right out of the box.
He seemed pretty confident when he said this sort of thing.
Yet here he says making them too rare was tying him up in knots.
I appreciate seeing his human-ness. I have trouble making my mind up about stuff all the time myself.
However, sometimes when you make a decision, what's done is done and you should live with it.
For years he and the other devs communicated loud and clear the Jedi will remain rare.
Yet as soon as the game finally came out, they started quieting down about that a fair amount.
Launch time was the time they should have been most committed to getting the word out to all the players and potential players.
After the first Jedi players started showing up, the Devs have hardly ever breathed a word about wanting to keep Jedi rare.
Jedi rarity is something many people accepted long before they bought the game. Jedi rarity was a REASON why many people bought this game. People knew they might be able to become one, but knew they might not.
People even spoke about how the way the devs were handling this and not caving in to everyone who wanted to be a Jedi and maintaining their convictions showed how much integrity the developers had, and to many people, that spoke volumes about what kind of game this would be and how faithful they the true spirit and character of Star Wars.
That the developers had so much love and respect for Star Wars that they were willing to not give many players what they wanted most right away.
The box itself seemed to contradict their original principle, enticing people by telling them they could become a Jedi too.
Now the new marketing site spells that out even further.
So is this new decision completely based on marketing?
If so, that may have sold out this game.
Sounds like a Faustian bargain (ok, that's a bit over the top).
Sometimes you need to stand up for your principles and not cave into the concerns of marketing.
I've seen it happen so much with many entertainment "products."
In the first place, the word "product" should NEVER be used to describe something that can so move the hear and go right into your soul.
So many games/movies/books/albums would have been SO much better if the people with the imagination were allowed to go all out.
Sometimes it's just about taking risks.
Think of the Lord of the Rings movies.
New Line / Warner took a HUGE gamble on that.
MASSIVE gamble.
One of the biggest, if not the very biggest, ever in entertainment history.
They gave a multimillion dollar budget to a director who'd never had a huge worldwide success, someone who's never had a big budget to work with, but someone with a huge, powerful, wild, wide ranging imagination.
They signed him up not to do one mediocore movie, but 3 all-out extravaganzas, sparing no expense.
And look where it got him.
Tons of Golden Globe Awards. Tons of best picture of the year reviews, Several Oscar nominations and a major chance of getting one for best picture.
Oh, and they made millions and millions of dollars.
They took a huge gamble. They had confidence in the vision. They stuck with it (Peter Jackson said it took six years of his life to make them). And it worked.
This game: Sony or Varant (not sure who ran it at first) took a huge gamble. They had confidence in the vision.
They stuck with it for a while, then started chickening out.
The game got rushed to release. It hasn't gone so smooth so far, but the potential remained.
It seemed empty, but as the months go on, we see more and more things being put into the game.
We see the developers making great strides to become the great communicators they were before the game came out in some areas.
Yet they haven't spoken all that much recently about the things that would keep this game alive.
I still had tons of hope for this game, until this Friday Feature.
Now, I don't know what to think.
If the developers end up staying true to what they wanted for this game, then ignore everything else I've said.
However, unlike a movie, a game like this is never finished.
That's part of the beauty of it.
Things can always get better.
Unfortunately, they can always get worse.
When I see more than ever in many different parts of this game that things will indeed get better, this gets sprung on us.
Things always change in these games.
It's never too late to remove bad changes, or never make them if they were bad ideas in the first place.
Some things should never change, like the central core that keeps them together.
So what it really comes down to for me is:
Has this game sold out?
I really hope not.
I'm even bothering with saying any of this because I see SO much potential in this and I want to help it get as good as it possibly can be.
I looked forward to playing it for over 3 years, and I've been playing it now forover 8months.
I plan on playing well into the future (unless the devs get sick of seeing posts like this one and decide to ban me forever).
I think the devs really do have the best interests of this game at heart.
I would like to be able to continue to think so.
The eggs are starting to show signs of become golden.
Don't kill the hen that lays them.
Hopefully the devs actually still intend to keep Jedi rare in some other way that we are not aware of yet.
If that's true, then they should disregard everything in this post.
My next post is about how they could possibly keep Jedi rare without Permadeath.
Pookie7
Tue Feb 03, 2004 1:01 am
#802
Remove Jedi? If that happens I'll go back to Everquest. At least there I got a Toon with an epic.
If everyone is so concerned with "too many Jedi", move the stinkin time line.
I'll admit, that I want a jedi too, and I'm grinding away at carbineer for it, but I really enjoy playing my combat medic. I'll probably split the time between the two after playing with the Jedi for a while.
Sorry just rambling...
Hey you Sony Guys! How about responding to the concerns expressed in these posts?
Noitcopa
Tue Feb 03, 2004 2:09 pm
#803
Ok.. probably no chance this will be read but here it goes...
For those of us still completeing our holos, should we bother? I doubt I will finish BE by the push (the crafting simply takes too much time), so will I get credit if I eventually finish it? Or will I get partial credit when the push comes? Or, is it simply a wasted effort (I do sort of enjoy it, but I'd rather be back to my commando self.)
PLEASE.. some communication on this!
Kapurnicus
Wed Feb 04, 2004 6:23 pm
#804
Lol, i just read 22+ of the pages of this thread, are the devs useless, what the hell is this here for if they are never gonna answer. im on profession 6, in know thats alittle behind the rest of you guys, but im a new player. If the devs did mention something about this in one of the pages and i missed it, please post a link, or email me it a [email protected] there is no way im reading any more of this. hehe, my eyes are started to bleed from the 48 hours of straight playing ive been doing anyway.
DonkeyBandit
Thu Feb 05, 2004 1:16 am
#805
I'm kinda new at posting in these forums and dont wanna waste all my time readin 35 pages so I'll just put in my input even thought its probably been mentioned already.
Making the Jedi quest base has its + and -
+ People will actually be having more fun because they will be working on skills they actually like and stick with them instead of grinding skill after skill after skill and so on...
- The quests....their gonna get camped like the holo drops used to get camped. I would suggest having multiple quests, maybetwo on each planet? One for rebels and another for Imps which would decide if the Jedi will be Imp or Reb. So.....I would have two diferent skill trees, Novice Jedi(Rebel) and Novice Dark Jedi(Imp). I would even go as far as having many different quests to reach Jedi which would be totally random. In other words if two players would go to the same npc they would not get the same quest, they would have to get different items or do different chores and what not.
Laeren
Thu Feb 05, 2004 7:03 am
#806
When I used to play MUDs we had a process called "Wizzing". What that meant was that it was possible for a player to ascend to the rank of Wizard, which was a game developer/programmer.
The process involved collecting a certain amount of experience in a certain category, and also collecting a certain number of certain kinds of items. And then you could make the attempt at becoming a wizard. What it really ended up being was a last roll of the dice by the computer. If you won, you became a Wizard. If you LOST, however, you were bapped back down to a Level 1 character and had to start all over again. You still kept your stuff (minus the items you collected for the Wizzing attempt), you just had to start all over again in terms of experience, including the special experience that could only be gained in certain ways.
I think such a system could be adapted for here. This will allow each player to make an attempt to become a Jedi, once they have achieved a certain number of experience points in a certain area. Once they have that (and possibly the need to collect certain artifacts, even possibly holocrons), they can attempt to become a Jedi. The jedi attempt can be some big flashy affair where the entire planet changes to rain, thunder, lightning, big booming this and that, etc. Everyone will know that someone is attempting to Jedi. They can cheer for their favorite person or boo them if they don't like them. Or it can just be a quiet thing, where you start the attempt and the only person who knows you're trying is you.
If you succeed, voila, force sensitive character slot. If you fail, you suffer the penalties associated with failing. I think the harshest would be revocation of all skill boxes and experience, but you get to keep your stuff, name etc etc.
Sure, there are going to be people who fail and continuously grind up the exp and items time and time again. And that's all well and good. There are others who may try once, fail, and never try again. And there will be those who are very happy with their character and don't want to risk it. These factors alone will keep the Jedi population down.