Development Cycle Archive
Thread: IC 1-5: Combat Roles; Commando
I understand the arguments that commando under the current implimentation uses more skill pts. The problem with this argument is that by saying this and creating the ultimate warrior, you might as well eliminate all other combat professions because they are clearly inferior.
I agree that curently there are not enough hard targets, but there should be tons of hard targets where the commando should shine.
I don't mind that commandos are powerful, but they shouldn't be invincible vs everything.
"I understand the arguments that commando under the current implimentation uses more skill pts. The problem with this argument is that by saying this and creating the ultimate warrior, you might as well eliminate all other combat professions because they are clearly inferior."
This is one of the big misconceptions with alot of the ideas out there... we aren't asking to be made the ultimate, invincible combat profession - only the most well-rounded and versatile one. In a one-on-one match a skilled commando should give a skilled member of any other elite combat professions a serious run for their money, the bonus for the commando's extra investment in combat skill pointsbeing that they aren't weak against any particular elite proffesion, unlike some of the other elite professions are right now.
A commando should be balanced so it's about even with a master pistoleer, carbineer, and rifleman,meaning that in one on one with any of those professions the two should be about even. While the commando wouldn't be able to out-shoot any one of those professions at their own game, their handbag of other skills, certifiations, and abilities would even the playing field. See where I'm going with this? The elite professions would be ideal for those who want to specialize in a certain aspect of combat, with the abiltiy to pick up multiple other skillsets as well, wheras the commando wouldn't have the options when it comes to mastering complimentary professions, but they would still be just as potent as any one of the other elite ranged professions - for those individuals who like to be prepared for any kind of encounter, and prize versatility.
Their power gained from their mastery of the marksman professionwould be in their ability to adapt to a different situation and fight as well as other elite ranged combat professions in any given situation, where an elite profession on it's own might encoutner some difficulty.
Here's an example: A rifleman is on a hill sniping at someone, but is then ambushed by a pistoleer that comes charging up while he's focussing somewhere else. In this close range, the rifleman is pretty much dead (or he should be, when things are balanced out) as his accuracy will be terrible, and the pistoleer will be in his 'hot spot'.
Now bring a commando into the picture: He's firing at someone with his rifle-type weapon (that under my idealogy would be implemented) and he's then charged by a pistoleer as well. He's in a bit of trouble, but unlike the rifleman, he has a few tricks up his sleeve -skills in using pistols and carbines. If he tries to beat the pistoleer at his own game, he'll hold out for a bit, but eventually loose due to inferior skills; however, he has the option of attempting to drive the pistoleer into the range of his carbine weapon, which might give him an edge needed to equalize the advantage the pistoleer would normally have, so they are about even.
This is the sort of balance I'm envisioning with the commando. Not balance thrrough power - balance through versatility and adaptability.
Honestly the Commando is a jack of all trades for ranged and unarmed combat. The role of command is to provide an all around feel to combat. Is sort of advanced marksmen, but with the addition of heavier weapons.The problem that arises is that commando and bounty hunter are in a power struggle. Bounty Hunter is and even more complex class that should expand on the commando. Commando should work and expand on the other ranged and unarmed combat classes but not take away from the other Elite classes only enhancing. Flame thrower is a unique weapon that no other class has and its damage and usage is unique. Acid rifle has a direct rival of Light Lightning Cannon which seems that it should be a commando weapon because commando has the Heavy Lightning Cannon. Commando's unique attribute is that ithas no real Special attacks that do like Knock down etc. It has Big PowerfulWeapons that inflict different types of damage. Commandos only trust their weapons and their ability the hit targets with their weapons. Riflemen relies on long range attacks,taking out targetswith themnot knowing until it is too lateand mind attacks. Carbineer relies on combat while in motion, area attacks, and doing Action damage fast. Pistoleer relies on generally close range attacks to the health,cause many status effects, and defend them selves from many status effects. Tka uses a conjunction of status effects,different HAM damage,and being able the take care of them selves to eliminate the effects of the other classes. Bounty Hunter is a conjunction of Ranger, Marksmen, and Commando.
Commando is needed on all battlefields as the focus of the enemy attacks. The enemy fears the commando because of the well rounded abilities for Long to Short range and their ability to take as much damage as they dish out.Commandos are generally the ones that get hit the hardest and give the other classes the ability to shine.The commando's arch rival is the commando, or the Elite Commando the Bounty Hunter. The other classes need the commandos to take damage and give support fire so that they can fight the way they were meant to. All combat professions should be able meant for PVP and PVE but each profession is only part of an aspect of the combat. Riflemen takes one part to the extreme while Commando isn't an extreme on any one part it is a medium on all parts so that it becomes a sort of an extreme.
Unfortunately the only weapon that makes the commando any use is the flame thrower. The commando artillery ability is poor because the support weapons don't hit and do little damage for what it costs for the commando to get them. Grenades need to hit their target and their area damage is poor. Commando's have no demolition abilities like HE weapons like demo packs. Acid rifle needs to be thrown out or be put into the heavy weapons tree because it and the Light Lightning cannon are too similar and their are corresponding weapons to them in the heavy weapons tree. All the abilities that a commando needs to become a commando aren’t expanded. The Bounty Hunter has carbine and pistol and for some reason a heavy weapon while commando doesn't expand on unarmed or rifle.
The best way to kill two birds with one stone is to redesign Commando and Bounty Hunter.
Commando's Skill trees should be Grenades and High Explosives, Artillery and Ranged Support,Flame and Incendiary devices, and Battlefield Tactics.
Commando shouldresetas listed Battlefield Tactics 1 "Unarmed bonuses plus the ability to use a wrist blaster which runs on the stats of unarmed but doesn't use the unarmed attacks." Battlefield Tactics 2 "Pistol bonuses plus the ability to use a Flechette Pistol." Battlefield Tactics 3 “Carbine bonuses plus the Flechett launcher which is considered as a carbine but can't use any carbine attacks." Battlefield Tactics 4" Rifle bonuses plus the ability to use a armor pirceing high velocity slug thrower that is sholder fired and uses the rifle mods but can't use anyrifle special attacks. Grenades and High Explosives should have an area attack varying to the weapons power, and should not need to hit to do damage. Damagevaries on if the grenade fails because it is a dud or if the target moves out of the grenade’s blast radius. Grenades should be able to be placed on stationary targets like turrets and set to detonate in a certain time, but another commando or weapon smith can disable the grenade if they get to it before the timer runs our. Grenades should do area damage to all everything in the blast radius friend or foe or even the commando that is using it; this also applies to grenades used as demolition devices. Grenades that are set on a object as a demolition charge have a timer that can be set for 1minute or 5 minutes and should do double or triple the normal damage to the target. Artillery and Ranged Supportshould have a light and heavy weapon and all the artillery weapons use Heavy weapons accuracy and speed. For instance their should be a heavy lightning cannon that has limited shots and a Light lightning cannon. The Heavy work as the artillery that is already set up but the light have the standard set up like Single attack 1 and Cone attack 2. The heavy weapons should do from 4000-7000 damage but their accuracy for no stationary objects is very poor and the Light weapons should do from 500-800 damage and be better for hitting moving targets. Flame and Incendiary Devices should stay as is but their should betteraccuracy and speed.A new stat for flamethrower needs to be added flamethrower accuracy while moving. Their should be also different types of flame throwers like high power but slow and have high HAM costs and one that is fast but low damage and high HAM costs and one that is well rounded and a wrist flamethrower. Master Commando should have the ability to place and use a E-WEB and it uses the Heavy Weapons mods for the accuracy and speed it should be set up like the musician’s omni-box where you can set it but it has an unpack and a packing delay. Their should be the wrist Rocket. Mitigation should be for melee and ranged but isn't as high as the mitigation for the elite classes of melee and range. This will allow the commando to go up against all types of fighters and hold their own but not be too powerful against any one class.
These are just some ideas that can be taken as parts so that maybe a few ideas may be bad but others can be used.
munkeyp wrote:
right now the thing that I dislike about commando is that when you burn something. If the burn does more damamge then you do you can not loot the body. I would like the chance to get something for my trouble.
munkey
this will be fixed in next patch
The Commando is a versatile heavy soldier. He is heavy offense + decent defense + versatility. His downfall is time and money investment and his reliance on having to adapt to be effective.
What basic combat elements should they possess?
Commandos should have combat training versus vehicles, installations, and personnel. They need to rely heavily on tactics. Using anti-personnel weaponry against large beasts or vehicles will be ineffective. They also make a great support role due to their versatility.
What offensive abilities?
Weapons. Lots of them. Choosing the right weapon for the circumstances is the big learning curve of playing a Commando.
Anti-Personnel - weaponry designed to take out small, vulnerable targets quickly and effectively. These are generally burst-fire based, or area attack based. The rate of fire on these weapons is in the medium range. They pack quite a punch, and are designed to level the targets within just a few shots.
Anti-Vehicular - weaponry designed to damage machinery, punch through armor, and generally do heavy damage to machinery/armored targets. (Imperial walkers, speeders, ships within range?) These weapons have low rates of fire, but do incredible damage.
Anti-Installation - Weaponry designed to do structural damage. This includes charges and detonators, among other blast or explosive weaponry.
What defensive abilities?
Commandos are trained in combat and are no stranger to being in the thick of things. They have some defenses they can employ, but are not nearly as agile or good at blocking blows as Teras Kasi. (Damage mitigation + some block/dodge mods are probably good, but I'm sure someone could have a neat idea that would be balanced.)
What unique abilities?
So far as great weapons, the Commandos can do things no one else can.
* Lay Charge. "Chewy, toss me another charge!" This allows a Commando to place an explosive weapon in a location (on an installation, anti-personnel mine, etc). The charge can be placed with a timer, or connected to a control unit. When the timer ends, or when prompted by the control unit (Detonate Charge) the explosive goes off.
Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?
They are heavy hitters and make great support due to versatility.
How could/should they interact with other professions?
Their weaponry is complex and expensive. They also may rely heavily on armor as they see a lot of combat. Squad leaders love good Commandos.
What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?
With support allowing the Commando to get into the best position to use the correct weaponry, the Commando is a devastating advantage. He needs the support crew, however, in the form of Brawler tanks or controlling Carbineers or Bounty Hunters. A crew of Commandos could do well supporting each other while they take turns dealing the damage when they are best suited for it.
What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?
They should have many specific faction perks. After all, the Commando is the weapon master, and this is a war. The ability to take down bases is also a huge part of what the Commando does. Laying charges and destroying structures is a big part of taking out an enemy outpost. Also, in large scale battles, the Anti-Vehicular weaponry is huge.
All in all, the Commando is a weapon expert. He requires skill to play because of the versatility and options available. He is not a solo king, though, due to his relatively low rate of fire. He can hold his own if he uses the right equipment, but needs support for major engagements.
Those are my thoughts.
I'm Artisan 0000, Brawler 1000, Entertainer 0111, Marksman 4443, and Scout 4040.
Commando Concept Proposal
Traditionally commando's are not heavy weapon specialists. They are extremely highly trained soldiers. One definition of "commando" is 'A small fighting force specially trained for making quick destructive raids against enemy-held areas, or a member of such a force.'
As a former Marine infantryman I'm not quite sure what they mean by Commando in SWG. It is my experience that Heavy Weapons specialists are just that, they specialize in ONE heavy weapon. Flame throwers are illegal due to the Geneva conventions (But in game they are SOooo much fun!). Reading people's post it looks like people are confusing Commando's with Combat Engineers in some cases. But this post is not to compare them. This is a new concept for commando's, to put some idea's on the table.
Commando's are elite troops that used to raid, to operate behind enemy lines on various missions and to lead the way for regular forces. Designed to operate in small groups they rely on stealth. Alone, they are quickly overrun and destroyed. Their strength lies in hit and run tactics. See Marine Recon, Army Special Forces, Navy Seals, Army Rangers, Marine SOC units, etc. To this end here is a suggestion to be considered and improved upon.
The 4 skill trees of commando are:
Infiltration: Skills include the ability to 'fool' faction
scanners and player radar. The higher the skill, the longer the duration
or more powerful ability (ie at 1-covert's are not revealed by faction
scanners, 2-coverts appear as friendly overts, etc.)
Additionally the player 'appears' to opposing faction members as
an opposing member. Ie, a rebel commando infiltrating an
Imperial facility appears to be an Imperial faction member. If
the commando is so 'disguised' they can still be attacked by
opposing faction. For example, Jeb the Reb is infiltrating an
Imperial Base, Egon the Imp (who has fought Jeb previously and
knows Jeb's REAL faction) can instantly attack Jeb, revealing
him to everyone. Infiltrators might APPEAR to be friendly but
they can be attacked if detected or identified. This will allow
for scouts, infiltrators, etc. This would make the commando
very integral to the GCW, both PvE and PvP.
Special Weapons: Here are the Grenades and Launchers. Merging
the two existing commando branches.
Extra Weapons Training: Special attacks with regular weapons,
similiar to other branches but not near as powerful. These
attacks like Knockdown1 and Overchargeshot3, Concealshot,
(usable by pistols, carbines and rifles). To maintain balance these
must NOT be as powerful as Rifleman, Pistoleer, etc. Just enough to
make regular weapons useful to a commando.
Battlefield Tactics: Disarming Minefields, Terrain Negotiation,
Flame throwers, Heavy Acid Rifles, Ranged Defense, ability to
take cover and concealment etc. Damage Mitigation
REVIEW
Infiltration would give Commando's the ability to 'get close' to the enemy where their flamers work. Individually Commando's would be dangerous. In a group they would be excellent scouts with the ability to 'come out of the wood work in the middle of an attack. They would be extremely dangerous up close but against a dedicated rifleman, pistoleer, bounty hunter, etc. they would have a rough time because they don't have the high end specials of the other proffessions.
They could continue to be anti-tank and demo but then perhaps another profession of "Combat Engineer" should be investigated.
Thank you for reading my 2 cents.
Warcat
Wanderhome, Master Commando.
Give up Master Commando to be a Master Dancer? Ha - I don't think so!
I LIKE IT! Now if THAT were to be implemented, I might just keep Master Commando...
Wait, no I wouldn't... only way I'm staying is if commando meets it's definition, and devs can the idea of calling a Heavy Ordinance Specialist a Commando. Otherwise, I'm going TKA...
Dizzy/KD...
Meditation...
Powerboost...
Center of being...
FAST as hell...
and only 92 skillpoint cost!
Why would anyone waste their time on anything else?! Honestly, I can't undesrtand why we have anything but TKM's in this game except maybe that people have so many skill points left over. I wish every elite combat profession was this good! (*hint* - DON'T nerf TKA, FIX everything else).
I honestly hope that what happens here is that you guys balance Commando and ALL other combat professions according to skill point cost, and their specific function. I suspect that this is what you are going for, as the questions pertaining to where a class "belongs" are being posed, but I just want to stress the importance of this. In important part of this is NOT completely removing the ability to stack defenses and offenses, but rather working out a system of how to distribute certain modifiers atained from one profession into another when the providing class/profession isn't being utilized. This is absolutely pivotal to the whole concept of how professions work together to form a template in this game, and also is the primary thing that separates this game from other MMO's (in a GOOD way).
Sorry, just a poorly placed rant, but it is still pertinant to the combat revamp, so it kinda has a place here.
Thanks for reading.