Development Cycle Archive
Thread: I'm out of my cave!
qui-lighter wrote:
Excuses, Excuses, Excuses and promises, promises, and promises. I've heard it all before Haden and I'm sick of it. You Flamed the Player based community that is fustrated about the game and the lack of progress. These are the same people that try to communicate wtih you devs on how to make the game better. But you just bit the hand the fed you.
I'm a long time player since launch, and I've followed the game through development for years. I'm a Community Leader like most people that is responding to this thread, and I've had enough.
I'm sick of this damn combat rebalance delay. I've heard this preach, "wait until the combat rebalance" since December 2003 by Thunderhart. Now this???? Combat rebalance will not fully get address until JTL?? It will be almost a year you guys should have addressed this and fixed the balance in the game!
I pay you. I am your customer. I've been paying to you people for over a year and mostly what I get is promises and excuses. I don't want that, I want you to fix your product!!!!
I had enough, today I cancelled my account after a year+, and Yes I'm that fustrated with the lack of progress by the devs and the unbalance of the game.
Goodbye.
LORD Hub-Ja *your friendly Colonel Tusken Imperial*
(Master Bounty Hunter & Rambeling Gambler. Just give me a blaster and a chance cube and I'll win everytime)
lol. i will have my 3 canceled within the month. This is the only way to send a clear signal. 
RougeSmuggler wrote:
BaalZamon wrote:
Haden, now that you've had the opportunity to view everything related to your comments and the repurcussions of said comments why did you not address your artful dodge to the magazines about the combat balance? We have threads documenting each and every time a developer promised the combat balance. What was the date on them? At least as far back as October. In Dec/Jan we were told it would only be a couple months. I'm sorry but couple months does not equal a year afterwards. The devs had a plan, and the plan kept getting bigger until THEY made it all encompassing. WE didn't do anything but ask why things were broken, or why the devs broke them on purpose until the CB. If you truely want to resolve everything that came from your interview, please address this.
P.S. Kurt does have a responsibility to the community he was the assistant manager for, and the same community he was promoted to manager for. Silence was what the community got. On the 23rd he told us you would address us that week. It wasn't until Sunday that we even got out of him that he had a few conversations with you regarding the issue. Silence is not a way to address the community.
P.P.S. Darn. I was in that camp.
I just have to say that there has never been a concrete date for any upcoming revamp. The only thing close to a date would be "soon".
But by now, we should all know that "soon" could mean, next month, 6 months, or a year. Everytime they talked about the Revamp TH would put alot of disclaimers about how nothing is concrete, and no dates are planned. That's just the way online development is.
-red
This was in no way intended as a slight against the community, or even those community members who posted "negative" comments or sent IGNPC negative letters about the combat revamp timing. I was (poorly) trying to articulate a common phenomenon that basically boils down to "happy community members are generally quiet community members." This has been true for us since launch.
What about the feedback asking for combat to be fixed first? It's seems that the majority of the community wants the current game working before you start releasing expansions.
Shug_Ninx wrote:
JTL is a high priority for us not only because it's something we believe that players really want (based on focus testing, press reviews and previews, forum posts, in-game feedback, PMs we receive, feedback from events such as Fan Fest Comic Con, surveys, etc.) but also because it is setting a tone for quality going forward. We also feel that we need to have JTL out there before we tackle the full-blown Galactic Civil War revamp because a large portion of the content is faction-based.
Shug_Ninx wrote:
We are NOT shifting a huge number of people over to working on JTL. JTL's progress is such that we will probably only need to pull 1-2 designers (out of 9) from Live. The one area where JTL will impact us is in testing - most of our Testers will likely be working on JTL in the weeks prior to its launch.
This is probably your biggest problem.
I, like many others on the boards, was EXTREMELY disappointed with the timeline change. This game is freaking awesome. But, without a doubt their are several problems with it. The combat balance (and the publish 10/profession grind fix...god I can't wait for that publish) is REQUIRED to make most of the problems go away. Jump to Lightspeed is definately going to be cool, and I have no doubt that the game will be better for it, but it will just be another feature-set that will have it's own set of bugs/patches/testing, further delaying the combat balance. I understand your desire to get Jump to Lightspeed to us, and I can't wait to see it and fly in SPACE, which is what I have been waiting for since before release... But if I had a choice between flying in a spaceship today, and waiting a month or two for the combat balance or vice versa, I would wait on JtL.
SWG is the world I live and play in. I don't post much on the forums because I am just too busy playing the game. I have both hated and loved the game (10 minute shuttle times!! Please tell me I can shoot down the shuttle driver that takes off right as I get to the ticket taker in JtL!!! I will buy ten copies!!
) but unless you address the overwhelming problems in the combat system, I fear there will be too many people who just don't stick around to see the cool new features in JtL. The design docs that you have started posting are the absolutely coolest thing I have ever seen in a MMORPG. The interaction between the developers and the community in this game is amazing. You guys have demonstrated that you want to make this a very cool game. The care being taken with the Smuggler Revamp specifically is evident, and GreenMarine has been amazing in his design docs and with his ear to the communities concerns. If this type of thing is used in the combat revamp, I have no doubt that it will be the most successful publish ever. My only wish that it comes as soon as possible, and that JtL in no way impeeds the speed that you can deliver it.
I know I am only one voice, and that this is hardly a democratic process, but if it was, my vote would be to wait on JtL, and deliver the revamp first. Thanks
- What do you plan to do to correct the current imbalance between mind and the other stats? I know mind healing is something, but will it be the only thing?
- What do you think of the current doc buff primary and secondaries? Do you plan to tweak them? and if yes, how and when?
- What do you think of the current lack of variety in armor avialable? 95% of AS build only compo and ubese. Do you have plan to change that? and if yes, how?
- What are your plan concerning droids in JTL? Will DE provide chassis and that's it, or will they finaly have a real needed product?
Thank you for your time.
PS : I do like the game. It has bugs and issues, you know one that doesn't?
It still have very good stuff, and most important, is fun.
Message Edited by Gavvot on 08-03-2004 12:34 AM
Q: Why is it going to take more than a year post-launch to make this happen?
A (from TH): It's not. We've been talking about things internally a lot. I've stressed the importance of these changes and everyone agrees. We've been going over the implementation details for a couple of weeks now so that we can get this back on track. JustG will be going into more detail in his next State of the Game letter which will be coming out in the next couple of days.
=====================
In December TH made this large Art of Combat post:
In a galaxy far far away, a galactic civil war rages on.War is about tactics and in a game about war, combat and tactical game play is vitally important.Over the next couple of months, many major game systems are getting overhauled and combat is right at the top of the list.
I want to take some time to go over all the upcoming changes and the challenges they are going to bring.Instead of tweaking an obsolete engine for short term gains, we are rebuilding the engine for long term success.
Where We Are
As it stands, SWG combat is pretty basic.Get the best pet, the best gun, a healer and go find your target.Pin the target down with your pet, send in the melee artists and start’a shootin’.Spam your best moves and get healers to prevent you from getting incapped as best they can.Players all expect more from MMO combat now the time has come to take things to the next level.
Where We Are Going
Combat has some problems right now. Creatures are tough to size up in combat, weapon differences are limited, HAM costs are inconsistent, enemy consideration (/con) isn’t always reliable in some cases and the player combat professions need more focus and specialization. Now that Player Cities, Mounts and Vehicles are in the game, we can go back to the combat system for a second pass and all of these changes are going to happen and some of these items are even in-progress.
Stage 1: Creature Balance
Creature armor, resistances, damage and all the things that make creatures and pets “tick” are being revamped from the first to the last so that all creatures have a good relationship from what they are to their level and the types of damage, armor and resistances they have.Everything will “make sense” in the greater scheme of things. The creature catalogue has been totally re-vamped and will be introduced into the game world with the next vehicle publish.
Now, for the next month or two, there are going to be a lot of creatures that are going to seem too easyto defeat and a few that will seem impossible to overcome.This is because that the creature balance is 1 of 4 parts of a larger overall change that’s coming in waves.When the weapon changes go in along with the HAM changes and finally the profession specialization, it will feel like a more logical system and a gameplay environment that will be even more fun to play.
Stage 2: Weapon Balance
The next phase of this massive combat balance is the Weapon Balance.When the game was originally designed, certain aspects of the weapon system like certifications and weapon types were meant to be unlocked as players opened the layers of their skill onions, opening up an interesting variety of weapons and having a good game challenge.What happened is very similar to what happens when you try to level off a wooden kitchen table with a hand saw.You take off a little bit off of this leg and a little bit off of that leg and by the time you get it finished, it looks more like a coffee table instead of a kitchen table.What happened with the combat system is that the certifications were moved, the combat and damage types were shifted and this has left the current system a little wobbly, so we’re getting a new “table”
In very basic terms, rather than making the T-21 and the FWG the end-all, be-all master weapons, we are “buffing” the system and putting in a full range of weapons at all levels.We’re going to be adding power progression levels for each type of weapon, a better damage progression for each specific power level, more weapon scalability and more weapons and certifications.We’re also putting in more swooshes and blaster bolts!
What this means is that there will be novice level T-21’s and master level T-21’s, novice level FWG’s and master level FWG’s.From novice to master, there will be a full range of weapons and certifications for each layer of the skill onions for the various combat professions.
In terms of gameplay, this second stage of over all combat balancing is going to bring with it a new wave of change; damage, to-hit, specials and the full scope of weapon combat will be out of whack for a little bit, but keep in mind, creature changes are in and at this stage, weapons will be falling into place; 2 of the 4 basic subsystems will be trued up with each other.
Stage 3: HAM
Some players saw a glimpse of the HAM changes on Test Center this month, but it was just too early to be released onto live servers. Since creatures have been rebalanced in this publish, players were dropping all of the creatures way too easily. It was a game stopper so we pulled it off the docket for this month’s publish with the intention of reintroducing the revised HAM changes after the weapon balance. This gives us more time to fine tune the HAM changes and also balance them against the new weapon tables.
We want to rekindle the exciting strengths of the combat system that were always intened. Some of you may remember Tearforger’s, “Anatomy of a Blaster Fight” posts way back when. That’s where we want to be. Having a focus on a more tactical level in combat, expect to see attacks and counterattacks with back-and-forth rhythms to battles instead of bum rushes and spamming your best move and hoping for the best.
HAM costs and special move costs are going to go up, but in the new system, its not a finite number where you use X number of special moves and then scramble for a heal. The effectiveness of moves are going to go up along with the costs, but the costs won’t be simply based off pool points in a linear fashion ala slug it out/shoot ‘em up until incapacitation. For example: execute a move, HAM will drop, a short time will go by and the HAM element will re-charge. While the HAM dips, a player is vulnerable for a little bit, but if they fall back for a second or two and let it recharge (it happens pretty quickly), they can get back into combat without suffering an illogical permanent penalty as opposed to just spending straight “endurance” points until there are none left with no chance of re-charge without a healer. This essentially makes special moves have a short time delay for each move rather than an attrition effect. As such, this will make combat rely on “turn and timing” and “attack and counterattack” instead of the amount of damage dealt as it was stacked each turn. What this will give us is a true “round combat” with a way to pull back, feign, take a breath and get back into combat. All in all, the HAM will be mighty.
Stage 4: Profession Specialization
Lastly, once the creatures, the weapons and the HAM have all been truly balanced within a larger, single combat design, we can really begin to flesh out the combat professions.Professions will all be adjusted to have stronger combat tactics, each specific to its profession and all fulfilling a unique roll in combat.Combat tactics will expand in new dimensions.Different melee professions such as Fencers, Pikeman and Swordsman will be different kinds of tanks.Some will deal more damage while others absorb more damage.Ranged melee professions such as Pistoleers, Carbineers and Riflemen will all have distinct differences and all will be valuable in different scenarios.Each profession will take on exciting differences and really be what we all want them to be and all part of a larger Galactic Civil War.
When all of this is said and done over the next couple of months, the pain of these changes will subside. At first, creatures will seem weak *cough*AT ST*cough*, the weapons will seem too powerful in some cases and too weak in others because they will still be dependent on old systems that are still active. After that, the HAM changes and profession specializations will be added and then we will all be playing in a game environment with sensibly balanced combat system that is fun and challenging. One rich with a full range or fierce creatures, a full gamut of weapons available to all players, a dynamic HAM system and a tactically driven combat engagement within the scope of a larger Galactic Civil War.
Kurt "Thunderheart" Stangl
Community Relations Manager
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Janson wrote:
I agree they could add more programmers and over time it would increase their output in terms of content, etc., however, you are saying they should add programmers for the promised revamps and expansions and following your learning curve example, they may not be very effective until almost or after the new release date for the CB(CR).
Maybe they should consider increasing their staff, however, it would not affect the issues at hand until late in the project when they could not be effective on major systems. That is the dilema.
They are already looking at 6 months down the road for some of these changes as is. This isn't a new problem, but a cronic one that has not gone away. The reason is they haven't added to their labor pool to get the work done. Instead they pulled people away from it. This isn't a design issue or poor programing. It is one of bad management skills trying to maximize profits by having as few people on staff as possible. It is transparent and annoying but very typical of corperate america today.
Kinda like saying programing software is somehow different than building a car. If you make people believe there is a difference then you can get away with all kinds of things, like putting out a defective product. In any other industry defective products are not acceptable.Thing is all industries require work and good management to bring a product to market. The software industry is not special in that reguard. They are special in that they managed to pull the wool over many peoples eyes since those people did not understand what software is. Software can be produced well and without defects. The reason why it is not is because the consumer believes software can not be made without defects and therefore is willing to accept them. So the greatest profit margin type managers make sure that their products have minimal work done on them. Hence incomplete and full of defects.
josfe wrote:
This was in no way intended as a slight against the community, or even those community members who posted "negative" comments or sent IGNPC negative letters about the combat revamp timing. I was (poorly) trying to articulate a common phenomenon that basically boils down to "happy community members are generally quiet community members." This has been true for us since launch.
Shug, while I respect you I must say that what I've highlighted above is exactly the kind of "incorrect" thinking that created the Horrible TEF system, the lack of wookiee armor, the un-fun to play GCW, and Hologrinding."Average" Players don't typically post on the forums even if they are upset with the way things work in the game. These players have either historically quit, or they pay their monthly fees waiting for the SWG version of the holy grail "Jump to light speed". Don't confuse contentment for happiness. If players were truely happy with the way things worked in the game you'd see ALOT more people on these forums praising the design of the game rather than suggesting alternative implementations of existing features. Granted you can't expect to please everyone, but making the assumption that the quiet community members are happy is just wrong. Those community members just haven't been upset enough, or don't feel as though they can make the least bit of difference in decisions that you guys make. Vocal community membersarepeople whoare OUTRAGED athappenings in the game, non-vocal community members can be considered "content" but that's along way from happy. Please keep this in mind in the future.
Not true at all, angry and unhappy players spend ALLOT more time making posts about what's wrong and what needs to be improved.Those people are allot more driven to post about something hoping for improvement when happy people just play the game and there will ALWAYS be one or moreunhappy players posting if there is a problem. This is a very large community, problems with the game wont remain hidden for long.
But that doesnt say unhappy people alwayspost...
just asume people are "content" aint right, this is my second mmorg and i never used the forums in my first mmorg at all, i just left that game because the devs there messed up bigtime. I had my own guild in that game and not many players used the forums of that game but they (almost) all left without ever making onepost on that games forums. (Allot of players stil think it's useless to try to reason with the devs.)
Message Edited by Ace2 on 08-02-2004 03:51 PM