Development Cycle Archive
Thread: I'm out of my cave!
LordPIB
Mon Aug 02, 2004 2:59 pm
#53
Thanks for the lengthy post, Shug. I was never one of those who became irate over your interviews. Your answers seemed pretty reasonable to me. I love this game, and though it frustrates me to no end, I believe it has more potential than any other game on the market right now. It's just disheartening that it's been a year and that potential still has not been fully realized. We've taken steps, but there's still miles before us. I for one am looking forward to the journey, though.
Meplorium
Mon Aug 02, 2004 3:02 pm
#54
Sorry it is that simple. It is just like digging ditches. Their is a small difference in that you have more of a learning curve than just digging a whole. Once you learn how to dig, or the code base, then you start being productive. That learning curve could be 6 months to a year. There is a second thing which is a must, and that is no turn around on your best employees. That means you need to pay them better than what the other guy would pay them. If they are not that talented, then you need to let them go or not give them huge insentives to make them stay. Running a high class business is very easy and straight forward. Running a business centered completely around the bottemline is also straight forward. Most businesses run somewhere inbetween those two methods, we don't seem to have much high class methology going on with this project though, hence all the bugs after a full year.
Janson wrote:
Sewoo wrote:
Thanks for the response.
Here is the meat of the nut for many, many people:
It doesnt seem as though you have enough programers writing code. The discontent is that we are not waiting for enhancements to the game - we are waiting for working systems.
There are many things that are flat out broken and need attention. Asking customers to continue to pay for a game, where many aspects don't work as intended/don't work at all is really, really frustrating.
I don't mean to sound cruel, but I don't care what the problems are. I am paying for a service that I have certain expectations for. Fix the game - now. If that means you have to hire 35 more programers, then do so.
The problem is that hiring more programmers straight up does not help the problem at all :/ This is a sad thing cuz if it would help, it could easily fix things. The problem is that SWG has a special engine and codebase that takes time to learn. There also needs to be a purposeful plan set up for the programmers and a lead programmer or senior programmer managing the implementation and tasks done by the specific programers, while making sure the code will fit together in the whole grand scheme of the game design and implementation. It is more complicated then just throwing more programmers at the problem.
BountyMaster27
Mon Aug 02, 2004 3:02 pm
#55
No offense Shug, but this sounds like the old song and dance i heard last year. I won't be around for your glorious revamp, but i do wish you the best.
BB
DankSmoker
Mon Aug 02, 2004 3:03 pm
#56
Thank you for apologizing/clearing up your interviews. It really means alot to me. I will continue to play and support this game that I have truely come to love.
/bow
qui-lighter
Mon Aug 02, 2004 3:06 pm
#57
Excuses, Excuses, Excuses and promises, promises, and promises. I've heard it all before Haden and I'm sick of it. You Flamed the Player based community that is fustrated about the game and the lack of progress. These are the same people that try to communicate wtih you devs on how to make the game better. But you just bit the hand the fed you.
I'm a long time player since launch, and I've followed the game through development for years. I'm a Community Leader like most people that is responding to this thread, and I've had enough.
I'm sick of this damn combat rebalance delay. I've heard this preach, "wait until the combat rebalance" since December 2003 by Thunderhart. Now this???? Combat rebalance will not fully get address until JTL?? It will be almost a year you guys should have addressed this and fixed the balance in the game!
I pay you. I am your customer. I've been paying to you people for over a year and mostly what I get is promises and excuses. I don't want that, I want you to fix your product!!!!
I had enough, today I cancelled my account after a year+, and Yes I'm that fustrated with the lack of progress by the devs and the unbalance of the game.
Goodbye.
LORD Hub-Ja *your friendly Colonel Tusken Imperial*
(Master Bounty Hunter & Rambeling Gambler. Just give me a blaster and a chance cube and I'll win everytime)
(Master Bounty Hunter & Rambeling Gambler. Just give me a blaster and a chance cube and I'll win everytime)
BaalZamon
Mon Aug 02, 2004 3:06 pm
#58
Haden, now that you've had the opportunity to view everything related to your comments and the repurcussions of said comments why did you not address your artful dodge to the magazines about the combat balance? We have threads documenting each and every time a developer promised the combat balance. What was the date on them? At least as far back as October. In Dec/Jan we were told it would only be a couple months. I'm sorry but couple months does not equal a year afterwards. The devs had a plan, and the plan kept getting bigger until THEY made it all encompassing. WE didn't do anything but ask why things were broken, or why the devs broke them on purpose until the CB. If you truely want to resolve everything that came from your interview, please address this.
P.S. Kurt does have a responsibility to the community he was the assistant manager for, and the same community he was promoted to manager for. Silence was what the community got. On the 23rd he told us you would address us that week. It wasn't until Sunday that we even got out of him that he had a few conversations with you regarding the issue. Silence is not a way to address the community.
P.P.S. Darn. I was in that camp. 
Janson
Mon Aug 02, 2004 3:12 pm
#59
Meplorium wrote:
Sorry it is that simple. It is just like digging ditches. Their is a small difference in that you have more of a learning curve than just digging a whole. Once you learn how to dig, or the code base, then you start being productive. That learning curve could be 6 months to a year. There is a second thing which is a must, and that is no turn around on your best employees. That means you need to pay them better than what the other guy would pay them. If they are not that talented, then you need to let them go or not give them huge insentives to make them stay. Running a high class business is very easy and straight forward. Running a business centered completely around the bottemline is also straight forward. Most businesses run somewhere inbetween those two methods, we don't seem to have much high class methology going on with this project though, hence all the bugs after a full year.
Janson wrote:
Sewoo wrote:
Thanks for the response.
Here is the meat of the nut for many, many people:
It doesnt seem as though you have enough programers writing code. The discontent is that we are not waiting for enhancements to the game - we are waiting for working systems.
There are many things that are flat out broken and need attention. Asking customers to continue to pay for a game, where many aspects don't work as intended/don't work at all is really, really frustrating.
I don't mean to sound cruel, but I don't care what the problems are. I am paying for a service that I have certain expectations for. Fix the game - now. If that means you have to hire 35 more programers, then do so.
The problem is that hiring more programmers straight up does not help the problem at all :/ This is a sad thing cuz if it would help, it could easily fix things. The problem is that SWG has a special engine and codebase that takes time to learn. There also needs to be a purposeful plan set up for the programmers and a lead programmer or senior programmer managing the implementation and tasks done by the specific programers, while making sure the code will fit together in the whole grand scheme of the game design and implementation. It is more complicated then just throwing more programmers at the problem.
I agree they could add more programmers and over time it would increase their output in terms of content, etc., however, you are saying they should add programmers for the promised revamps and expansions and following your learning curve example, they may not be very effective until almost or after the new release date for the CB(CR).
Maybe they should consider increasing their staff, however, it would not affect the issues at hand until late in the project when they could not be effective on major systems. That is the dilema.
RougeSmuggler
Mon Aug 02, 2004 3:14 pm
#61
BaalZamon wrote:
Haden, now that you've had the opportunity to view everything related to your comments and the repurcussions of said comments why did you not address your artful dodge to the magazines about the combat balance? We have threads documenting each and every time a developer promised the combat balance. What was the date on them? At least as far back as October. In Dec/Jan we were told it would only be a couple months. I'm sorry but couple months does not equal a year afterwards. The devs had a plan, and the plan kept getting bigger until THEY made it all encompassing. WE didn't do anything but ask why things were broken, or why the devs broke them on purpose until the CB. If you truely want to resolve everything that came from your interview, please address this.
P.S. Kurt does have a responsibility to the community he was the assistant manager for, and the same community he was promoted to manager for. Silence was what the community got. On the 23rd he told us you would address us that week. It wasn't until Sunday that we even got out of him that he had a few conversations with you regarding the issue. Silence is not a way to address the community.
P.P.S. Darn. I was in that camp.
I just have to say that there has never been a concrete date for any upcoming revamp. The only thing close to a date would be "soon".
But by now, we should all know that "soon" could mean, next month, 6 months, or a year. Everytime they talked about the Revamp TH would put alot of disclaimers about how nothing is concrete, and no dates are planned. That's just the way online development is.
-red
scall01
Mon Aug 02, 2004 3:15 pm
#62
You have ignored smuggler for too long I'm afraid. You promised a revamp back in AUGUST of LAST YEAR. Yet, here we are. Still waiting patiently. We haven't gotten a single piece of content(well anything that's even worth saying) since basically launch. When I think of Star Wars, I think of smugglers, and bounty hunters, and the GCW, yet you are totally ignoring ALL 3! Bah, this is rediculous, you probably won't even notice this post.
WesBelden
Mon Aug 02, 2004 3:16 pm
#63
Heh, just echoing Indy and pointing to your post
fishbrains wrote:
WesBelden wrote:
Thanks for posting Shug, appreciate it.
I'll back Indy up though and point you to a thread on the Smuggler forum. You don't have to read it all, just know that it's quotes of various posts dating back to the 26th of August 2003 of Devs posting saying Smuggler needs fixing, some 'love', or should be expecting a revamp. It starts off witha quote of what you said in the interview with IGN.
I think the smuggler community really just wants to feel like it can trust the guys with the red names. At least for the older members of the community (and anyone who reads up on their community history) I don't think that's going to happen until Smuggler finally getsits long over due revamp.
Thanks for your time.
GJ Wes, you got to it before I could
BabyRancor
Mon Aug 02, 2004 3:16 pm
#64
Well - I can only speak for myself here.
I won't bother to address the percieved insult to the forum as a whole - as I'm sure that point willbe stated time and again. Yes I (as a long time poster and community member) felt slighted by the broad brush "negative" comment - but that's neither here nor there.
My concern with the interviews was the tone that the "combat rebalance" was just a concept all along. That we players read more into it than was planned - thus leading to the more expansive "combat revamp".
This is flatly untrue. In November the thecreatures and NPCsin the game were"rebalanced"to align with a new power curve set to be implemented. The outcome of that change was that the Creature Handler profession was dramatically nerfed. Their concerns over thiswere addressed by the Dev teamas only being a temporary change - and that it would all make sense when the rest of the rebalance was brought online in"the next couple of months".
If the combat rebalance was never planned - why then were the mobs rebalanced? Why did TH (IIRC) post that several things in the game would be out of whack for a bit while everything was brought back into alignment. It was stated flat out that many things in the game would be much easier as a result of the partial rebalance, but that it would all work out in the end.
This is my concern. We have (from our perspective - in other words from what we've been told) been in the middle of the combat revamp for 10 months now. Then you state to the general public that we took it all too seriously and the combat balance was never more than a concept that you were kicking around the office.
How can we the community trust whatthe Dev teamposts now?
Why should we believe that this correspondant summit (which BTW there are at least two professions that are not represented as of this date) is anything more than a smoke screen or a PR boondoggle?
DeQuosaek
Mon Aug 02, 2004 3:17 pm
#65
Shug_Ninx wrote:
Then, I could have ended with: "And, just to show that there are always two sides to every issue, we almost always have community members who do take the time to post to the forums in open support of our direction."
Absolutely. The negative stuff usually tends to snowball a lot faster than any of the positive posts. There are still some of us who are understanding and don't try to readsinister things into everything the Devs say. Development takes time and is not an easy thing to do.
We do appreciate all the hard work you guys do! Keep it up. 
For all of those who wish to one star me because I'm being positive without even giving it a second thought, just look at the recent HAM revamp discussions, CM changes and other good changes coming our way.