CUEmu - Thread Posts

Windego

Fri Jan 30, 2004 6:14 pm

#66

get rid of defense stacking

make mastering a elite profession more rewarding

get rid of defense stacking... wait, did i already say that

Toknight

Fri Jan 30, 2004 6:15 pm

#67

It seems a lot of people are saying that mods should be spread through the entire trees. This is NOT a good idea and will not help to make the game more fun. Mixing and matching should not be prevented but balanced. If you take out the ability to have multiple professions you lose the best thing about this profession system.

What is missing here is the specialist vs. generalist choice. It seems that in some cases the generalist can outdo the specialist in his specialty. This should not happen, the specialist should be better at his specialty than the generalist who only learns part of it, but, like many have said,the generalist has far greater diversity.

One of my earlier points was that someone who specializes in two professions (i.e. masters) should be better at them than anyone who only picks up a few parts. This does not mean that picking up two columns in two different professions should give any less overall benefit that picking up 4 columns of one. After all they require the same number of skill points. However the benefit would be in the diversity and picking up the 4 columns of the same profession should make one twice as proficient in whatever that happens to be.

I also feel that prerequisites should have something to do in the overall scheme of things too. Since the prerequisites of master boxes are all 16 boxes in that profession, they should give more benefit than any one box of any of the 4 columns and should give the benefits of all of the columns (so it would be like a fifth box in each). This also provides a nice check when designing and balancing because it requires a significant number of skillpoints all invested in one specific profession to get the master box of that profession.

I think that everything will be much easier if each profession is given a unique role that fits in with all the other professions in the game. It would also be nice if there was a much larger portion of the game (combat-related) that required more than 1 or 2 people.

Parasite (Tarquinas)
- Teras Kasi Master / Creature Handler / Fencer -

Sooty

Fri Jan 30, 2004 6:21 pm

#68

What do you think the strengths of professions mix and match are?

What do you think the weaknesses of professions mix and match are?

How do you think we should maintain the unique skillset flavor the game is built on?

What are some neat combinations that would be good for the game?

Anything else you want to say on this subject?

As several others have said, as things stand hybridization is much more potent in both offense and defense than specialisation. The change to defense stacking will not change this overarching reality. The recent changes to the CH skilltree should point the way forward - each profession skillset should be re-evaluated and re-worked to (a) make ALL the lines in a combat profession worth taking and (b) encourage mastery of a profession as something truly worth attaining.

2) Mix and match, as it stands, makes balancing virtually impossible. It also makes even getting a semblance of balance virtually impossible. Balancing the combat professions where the great majority of players choose to master 2 elites is difficult, but distinctly possible.

3) The defense stacking being stopped is a good start. As suggested elsewhere, the mastery boxes for all professions, not just combat, should contain enough to make them really worthwhile. There are enough skill points in the game to collect several professions (except for BH, who should be made strong enough as a stand alone anyway). Secondly, bonuses gained in a profession should affect THAT profession, or ones based off it. Marksman bonuses feeding up into elite profs is great, but getting dodge bonuses gained from pistoleer while using a rifle (for example) is not good. Someone suggested splitting such things from +20 dodge into +15 pistol dodge/+5 general dodge - I think this would be a very good way to go forward.

4) Hmm - neat combinations that are new? Not sure there are any, I think players have tried everything possible.

5) To keep (and further emphasise) the style of play desired there needs to be better attention paid to cost/benefit for skill point investment. Someone above me arguing for defense to stack again by comparing a rifleman/tka with a rifleman crafter completely misses the point, imo. There is no earthly reason for TKA training to improve a rifleman's abilites in any significant way, but he has one heck of an advantage if someone jumps him in a close in situation. The rifleman/TKA has spent twice the points and gets potent combat ability at range and close-in, while the crafter is toast if he gets caught at short range. Giving profession based offensive AND defensive bonuses, with some smaller generic bonus applicable in all situations as mentioned above would go a long way toward emphasising the individual professions while granting a smalladditional advantage to someone that goes for multiple combat professions.

The only other thing I would like to see is delays given to putting on and taking off armor, and on drawing and holstering weapons - but then I'm a bitter CH that is POed about this stupid 30 second calling rule, so that will probably not happen

JarooaKarlent

Fri Jan 30, 2004 6:30 pm

#69

What do you think the strengths of professions mix and match are?

I think the most obvious strengths is it removes any class envy issues players might have. You can change into something you see others playing as that you like without having to create a new character from scratch. It also creates a unique history for each player where through the course of their game life they will have probably jumped around and tried many different vocations and gone through many different playing styles based on what they felt like being at the time. It would be interesting to see if maybe there could be a more unique way of tracking that history (oops I said TRACK sorry programmers!) besides the normal badges idea. I don't know that I have anything concrete to say but there could be room for ideas given the breadth of the Star Wars universe (obsidian order anyone?! I really like the idea of working like Mara Jade as an offshoot class like Jedi but you can help the Emperor locate Jedi and whatever else we can go back on. Sorry got off topic.)

What do you think the weaknesses of professions mix and match are?

The weakness is the lack of unique professions that only a certain character type can play. The ideas seam to be dynamically opposite in basic form. Though the addition of loot items that can enhance player crafted things is where the uniqueness can be found. Its also a nightmare to try and balance since there are so many custom paths that must be played out then fixed it really makes balancing a never ending process. Adding more skillsets is only going to add to the math.

How do you think we should maintain the unique skillset flavor the game is built on?

I don't know that I know enough about the system to really know how to better maintain it. I haven't gotten around to playing all the skillsets yet. I like it I think, nothings really come to mind yet.

What are some neat combinations that would be good for the game?

Maybe created it so two different skillsets when combined bring an added bonus to class role types (Tank Bonus, Healer Bonus, Artillary Bonus, etc). That could allow for more emphasis on important class roles. Of course then the content would need to match the need for such roles. I don't know that a Tank in EQ and a tank in SWG feel quite the same and have the same emphasis or need. But will see after this wave of balancing gets done. More epic group challenges would increase the need for a class role but I don't see a huge grouping incentive yet, the games still pretty young in terms of potential. Time will make it better.

Anything else you want to say on this subject?

Its a tough balance to get a unique feel for a character in a system that everyone can become anything. The loot randomness is where the characters character gets built up. Of course I'm assuming a characters appearance and equipment and skills are what make them unique. Other game mechanics play into the experience and add or subtract from the whole personal experience, but I don't think everyone wants to accept them as valid play options (ya that whole Bartle-quotent thing). Elite Elite Professions have potential to become demi-jedi classes that could be brought together in a raid group type of high end content for those with the need to blast high end Star Wars content or achieve large scale victories to get a feeling of worth.

I also think the combat system is a tad impersonal and or the way people interact in chat could be made so we could see all that detail on the faces that gets lost real easy (oh I guess this is off topic too).

Raptor2k1

Fri Jan 30, 2004 6:38 pm

#70

Players can create hybrid characters that can escape the traditional combat roles of having a single function in combat. This is an advantage we want to maintain, highlight and evolve.

What do you think the strengths of profession mix and match are?
The strengths lie in the ability to create a character with an extremeley diverse selection of skills and abilities. We can have rifleman who are part-time medics, assassins who do interpretive dances in their free-time, or Commandos, who could specialize in a broad variety of weapons.

What do you think the weaknesses of profession mix and match are?

The only weakness that I can think of is that sometimes certain skill combinations might become unearthed that prove to be far more powerful, or effective than any other. This can be prevented by making sure there are at least one or more (preferably) counters to any particular skillset combination.

How do you think we should maintain the unique skillset flavor this game is based on?

I think that this game has a decent skill-set flavor already, and it has a great deal of potential. I would only request that a serious resturcturing of several professions and their abilities occur. Elite and hybrid professions building off of others should incorporate aspects of their basic trees/professions. IE. a commando should continue training proficency with carbines, rifles, and pistols, and some unarmed abilities, as the profession builds off of marksman and brawler as a base template. This is one of the areas I feel the game is rather weak in right now.

What are some neat combinations that would be good for the game?
I'm glad this question was asked. Certain combinations should be natural, and almost encouraged by the game's dynamics. Right now it's rather difficult to find a particular set that makes logical sense. A particular example I would like to see is interdependency between the Commandos, Rifleman, and the Pistoleer in terms of skills. The commando profession, since it builds off of the entire marksman profession, rather than just a branch of it, should be adept at all three of the afformentioned weapons (which is definately not reflected right now, but that's another issue in discussion in the commando in-concept thread.) However, the Commando should not be better than any one of those classes at their own game and almost always loose if in a sniping match with a master rifleman, for example. Yet he must still remain effective in the versatility that comes with the ability to change weapons to fit the situation.

Now to expand upon this 'redesign' of the commando profession I've constructed, any of the elite ranged combat professions should make ideal complements to being a master commando. Since the commando is adept with each type of weapon, he should be able to select a complementing profession, to specialize and master. Think about it, Commando snipers, they make sense? This would construct a situation where someone could be a master at their firearm, yet would be able to take an extra step to be the best of the best in their rifle/carbine/pistol abilities. On the flip-side, a commando who is well rounded might choose to become a specialist in one particular weapon and excell at using it, rather than just being all-around 'decent'.

On the non-combat side of things, I'd like to see more done to encourage (ie. increase the effectiveness of) combinations of combatants who might choose to master the entire medic profession in order to be a competent medic that can fight as well. Perhaps this was the original intent of the Combat Medic profession, but that's also another issue.

This wouldn't be redundant, as players could choose to specialize, or even generalize, profesion selection depending on the skills they wanted to pick up.

Anything else you want to say on the subject?

I want to close by adding that skill interdependencies, and enhancements, where professions can often, and are encouraged, to build off of eachother to bolster effectivness and general diversity of players are definately a positive thing, so long as the profession can also stand by itself and remain reasonably effective without specialising if the player chooses to do that too.

The one other suggestion I might add is to at some point add a Heavy Weapons Specialist profession (pre-req being the marksman ranged support tree) to solve the commando schitzofrenia that seems to be in the game right now. I would recomend setting up the commando as a more general profession with emphasis on diversity and adaptability, with option to hone combat skills of one particular type on a general elite profession, whether it be rifleman, pistoleer, carbineer, heavy weapons specialist, or teras kasi artist.

Kyeran Halkyon

Master Gunfighter and Demolitionist of the Old Republic Navy
SWG Commando Forum

Thornstar2

Fri Jan 30, 2004 7:44 pm

#71

I am all for a unique feel for different combat professions and i have some thoughts about it but most importantly in my opinion there are far too many effective special skills closer to the novice of the profession, and more than often reaching master status gives you a few skills that are only semi useful. A Master should really be using Master skills and leaving other skills behind.

Lets take real life combat for example, martial arts, you learn your skills as you get new belts and you become better at them. As a black belt you are not going to try to use basic throws to get your opponent down as these would be useless as you will probably be facing an opponent of the same level, so you will be using your high level moves and your special black belt skills.

So masters in professions should be using Master skills and not mainly use something that they learned in green belt like alot of combat professions.

If this were true you would see a lot more distinction between combat professions and a trained fighter in certain professions would be able to spot fellow masters in that profession by the style of fighting they use.

Balancing at the Master professions level is the most important part of balance in combat, The skills before master do not have to be balanced as accuratly as there are so many different combinations of skills and levels before master sure some people will complain that a 2-3-1-4 rifleman might be able to "own" a 2-3-1-4 carbineer but at the end of the day if a master rifleman is as good as a master carbineer then everyone will be happy, it is then up to the players to decide which additional skills they train in from other professions to see what other skills complement their "mastery profession". Some combinations will be popular, some wont, and some will be a "stealth" success. For this to work the skill point allocation needs to be looked at just slightly, afterall if a master is as good as another master then it will only ever be 1 profession on another profession a a player cannot do the same attack with 2 different professions. It might end up being a rock, paper, scissors type of balance at the master for master level, but the "dabbling" in other skills would be able to counter that to some effect.

I hope my text is understood a little as im not sure i really understand it.

reminded me to delete my old sig from my other forum account

Randonb

Fri Jan 30, 2004 7:51 pm

#72

Combat profession stacking is a bad, bad idea and should beextremely restricted. If X + Y = overpowered, then X is kept weak and Y is kept weak. It isn't fair to either.

In addition, it leads to unpredicted templates that cause big problems. By the devs own admission, the players are smart and will develop some horrendous scheme if stacking is allowed. This is the reason that you are hesitant to put specific Combat Droid certs in the trees.

There is so much to do in this game, I think that players will find fulfillment in other areas to spend skill points on if combat profession stacking is restricted.

"...You're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."

biwan:
Former Pistoleer Correspondent (02/04/04 - 09/05/04)

Nef01

Fri Jan 30, 2004 8:07 pm

#73

I really think that if you go master brawler you should only be able to futher your skills in the melee professions only, no ranged weapons.......same with master marksman, you can only futher your skills in the ranged weapons line....this would prevent all the crazy combat cross templates that are running wild now, this would also help combat roles in the game , for group hunts and battles you would either be a tank(melee) or a ranged(pistoleer, carbineer, rifleman) combat specialist. medic, scout , artisan would still be open to any combat class to learn if they chose too, so this way if you wanted to be a Bounty hunter, you still could, marksman and scout could still be mastered, if you wanted to be a ch all you had to do was master what you needed in scout and then go creature handler, and add melle or ranged skills with it. the only two hybrid professions that would have to be changed would be commando and smuggler, and then all you would have to do is take unarmed specialisit away as a requirement for both( WHY DO THEY NEED THEM ANY WAY?) This way any combat dabbling would be done in a persons chosen combat field( either melee or ranged ) No more TKM's with pistoleers dodge mods, sure they would get any melle's class to cherry pick mods from, but thats ok, if itsmelee its cool, same with ranged, no more pistoleers with fencers mods. You want a more defined combat role for this game? start with seperating melee from ranged weapon skills, it may not be the full answer, but it has to be the first place to start.

bleaqheart

Fri Jan 30, 2004 8:15 pm

#74

Toknight wrote:

Why is everyone saying that defense mods shouldn't stack?

Pistoleer/Fencer, 'nuff said?

0_o

Fri Jan 30, 2004 8:17 pm

#75

I agree that mastering a profession should give greater bonuses, and I strongly agree with the hybrid versus specialist suggestions. However, I don't want the professiosn to be just barely playable or enjoyable without mastering the profession. One of the greatest things about reaching an elite profession is the noticable increase in skill you achieve. It's like a reminder of why you've chosen to be this profession, a kind of taste of what's to come. So I just want to make it clear that I'd like to see more emphasis on the greater abilities mastering a profession provides, but not to the point that without mastering the profession is gimped.

Enou Rotalk - Sunrunner
Apac Yfo- Eclipse

Toknight

Fri Jan 30, 2004 8:40 pm

#76

bleaqheart wrote:

Toknight wrote:

Why is everyone saying that defense mods shouldn't stack?

Pistoleer/Fencer, 'nuff said?

Indeed that is why so many people say the system is in need of balance.

What about melee defense and ranged defense? All elite combat professions get these, would you say that these should not stack either? Or how about defense vs. status (stun, posture change, etc.)? Pistoleer/Fencer stacking their dodge mods is currently not balanced with all the other combinations of equal cost (in skill points) but what about when it's changed and any two combat professions had defense mods that would stack to some extent.

We're not talking about a small tweaking of the current combat system, it's already been announced that the entire combat system is getting an overhaul.

Parasite (Tarquinas)
- Teras Kasi Master / Creature Handler / Fencer -

Timke

Fri Jan 30, 2004 9:10 pm

#77

Just some thoughts about different classes and their roles in combat...

Brawlers: I think the thing that brawlers bring to the table, in addition to the ability to tank, should be the ability to create zones of control: that is, if a brawler is standing between you and somewhere you want to go, you are going to have to deal with that brawler first. This is less effective in wide-open spaces, but in corridors, rooms, and so on, I think it would be an interesting ability for a brawler to be able to "hold" a spot so that people could not move through. The specialization of Brawler professions might determine what kind of "control" the Brawler could command. Such as:

Teras Kasi: Teras Kasi seem to be built as high-damage close quarters fighters, and this seems like a good role for them. Knockdowns, throws, stuns... these are the hallmarks of a martial artist. However, because the TKA must lay hands on their enemy (or possible hurl enemies into each other), they would have a small zone of control, perhaps able to 'hold' 1-2 people in a small area around them.

Fencer: Fencers are designed as fast, highly defensive fighters, and this makes sense. Fencers are fast, and hard to hit. They do not do the damage of other Brawlers because they use small, fast weapons, but they do make great tanks... not from their ability to take blows, but from their ability to avoid damage altogether. Because Fencers are so fast and have a slightly longer reach than TKAs, they would have a larger zone of control... perhaps 3-4 people, or an area 3-4m around them. I don't see Fencers dishing out a lot of damage, but I do see them with bleeds, stuns, blinds,and other 'finesse' type moves. (How about a 'disarm' skill that unequips an opponant's weapon?

)

Swordsmen: Bigger swords... slower... more damage, more reach. Swordsmen have a balance between their ability to hold a large area and deal damage and their ability to move fast to avoid damage. Not as defensive as Fencers, not as offensive as Pikemen, but a sizeable zone of control... 4-6 people or maybe a 5-6m area.

Pikemen: Pikemen should be the best at holding 'zones'. They have the longest reach, and should be able to keep people 'at bay' with ease. Pikemen also should do hefty damage, but should be slow, and should probably the least 'defensive' of the Brawler classes to reflect this slowness. (Though a Pikemen would still make a better 'tank' than, say, a Marksman). I also see them with knockdowns, stun/dizzy combos, area-knockdowns, area-stuns, and other specials to reflect the effect of a huge, long hunk of metal being swung around. Pikemen could hold, say 7-8 people at bay, or an 7-8m area around them.

Zones of control could be used to hold off advancing forces, protect medics, establish perimeters, create a 'beachhead' while other forces run in from behind. I don't know how easy this would be to code, but perhaps if a Brawler creates a 'zone of control' then only people in his group/faction can pass through it. (I know this could also be used for griefing, which is unfortunate... hopefully you can think of a way around that.. maybe only those in combat with the Brawler or his group are affected?) If a Brawler is knocked down or blinded, then his "zone of control" drops. Of course, multiple brawlers could overlap their ZOCs to help prevent that.

Marksmen: The Marksmen are pretty well designed overall with the notion of speed vs. damage vs. range, though obviously some tweaking remains to be done. Just a few thoughts about these:

Pistoleer: Pistol fighting should be close-range and fast. Much like Fencers above, I see the Pistoleer as being much more agile than his bretheren Marksmen because he doesn't have a big gun to lug around. I see Pistoleers being more accurate when running than others. I see Pistoleers having a very hard time doing much damage outside 30m or so. I see Pistoleers also being able to take advantage of cover as they hop and run from streetlamp to trashbin to stairwell. I also seePistoleers doing the least damage overall of the Marksmen, but having speed of shots to compensate, allowing them to do specials faster. Pistoleers should be very dangerous at point blank range.

Carbineers: I know Carbineers were given a lot of knockdown and posture change shots, which made them the 'crowd control' of the Marksmen class, and this is a fine role for them to play. They should be middle ground between Pistoleers and Riflemen. Faster then Rifles, Slower than Pistols... medium damage output, medium range. (My laser carbine has a sweet spot around 45-50m which seems a bit far for a carbine...)

Riflemen: Have you thought about giving Riflemen an edge on range compared to other classes? More than just accuracy bonuses, but how about an extra 5-10m of range on their weapons? Just a thought. (I'm assuming most all weapons have the 64m range cap, I've not played a Rifleman.) But if they are to have the same overall range, then I think Riflemen should have accuracy bonuses that let them hit very well right out to the end of that range. Riflemen should hit hard and slow. They should have the most damage output of the Marksmen. They should be able to target any pool, not just specialize in headshots... they are about slow, precise strikes. Riflemen, as I see them, should be able to lay prone at 64m out from the battlefield and pick off targets and provide covering fire... make the enemy worry about them, have to deal with them. Riflemen should also be very innaccurate at close ranges. Let them really fulfill a 'sniper' role.

Just a thought... what about giving an incentive to the 'light' weapons classes, who tend to deal less damage, by having 'heavier' weapons classes suffer a movement rate penalty. Maybe not a lot, but it's going to slow you down carrying a huge rifle or rocket launcher or lightning canon... something to think about. (Squad leaders could offset this penalty... )

Some thoughts about other specialty combat classes:

Ranger: Again, this sort of depends on what your definition of a 'ranger' is... woodsman, super-scout, or infiltration specialist. Personally, I think a ranger should be able to use traps on sentient targets, or at least have a range of'humanoid' traps. I think ranger camps should not disband when the ranger enters combat, allowing a ranger to make a temporary feild base where people can fall back to and regroup in large campaigns. I also think that /conceal *should* hide you from sentients, and should even conceal you from other players if the ranger is skilled enough. Master rangers should be able to vanish from radar so long as they are: a) concealed, b) prone, c) not in combat, and c) either still or crawling. The tracking interface and functionality could use some improvement too... how about constant tracking of a target so long as that target doesn't get too far away?

Commando: I'm glad the flamethrowers are being tweaked. I suppose I always envisioned the role of the commando to be more anti-structure, anti-armor than anti-personnel. Oh, they should have some of those skills too, but it strikes me as a little odd to use a rocket launcher against infantry... this isn't Quake, after all.

AT-STs, vehicles, armored transports, turrets, bases... and *droids*... these should all be very afraid of Commandos. I think commandos should, as they do, have the greatest variety of damage types... acid, fire, blast, etc. Maybe if there were more vehicle-based combat this would be more feasable. Of course the new combat droids are coming...

Squad Leader: I actually considered trying out a squad leader for a while, but then I heard how they work, when they work, and changed my mind. I think the thing that worries me most about Squad Leaders is that it seems that they can actually end up playing other people for them... selecting targets and firing automatically. I, for one, want to do that myself, not have a Squad Leader do it for me. I think a Squad Leader's abilities should be significant but passive. Terrain negotiation? Great. Volly Fire and the rest? Great, though they should probably work more often and more significantly. How about more morale effects such as temporary party buffs during combat? How about increasing group attack speed? Reducing weapons HAM costs a little? Increasing healing a little? How about more communications skills besides red text? Like showing the Squad leaders waypoints and targets in a distinctive color? Squad Leaders should make a group more efficient. A group with a SL should be able to kill faster, heal faster, and move faster than a group without one, all other things being equal. That's one of the benefits of leadership.

Smuggler:It's hard for me to point to one thing a smuggler can do for combat directly... I know they are going to be looked over to put the 'smuggle' back in smuggling. They do bring spice to the group, sometimes. Perhaps raise dirty fighting to a new level with poisons? Backstabbing? (Okay, okay, but they are 'rogues' aren't they?

)

Bounty Hunter: What is it that Bounty Hunters do? They hunt people. Therefore it seems logical to me that Bounty Hunters should specialize in anti-personnel techniques. Where I see commandos taking on the heavy armor, I see a Bounty Hunter using her skills on infantry. I think bounty hunters should also have a few more tools for the times you want a mark 'captured alive' not dead... I'm thinking better ensnaring tools, mostly, here. I also remember Boba Fett seemed to have some nice gadgets...

Anyway, those are some thoughts. Thank you for your attention.

Orionsol

Fri Jan 30, 2004 9:25 pm

#78

I think ENHANCING your profession with other non combat professions is the key. For instance lets take a favorite profession out MASTER BOUNTY HUNTER

Added with :

Weaponsmith can make a special type of BH LLC with added ability

Armorsmith could get special BH armor

Medic/Doc/CM can now "Poison" thier targets with new Rifle type

Image Designer could now Personally Track with no need for Droids

Ranger Could have BH droids now "KILL" a target for him

Droid Eng make special BH attack droids

I think you get the idea. Now this will satisfy the urge to "CUSTOMIZE" your character into your play style AND allow for a plethora of profession varieties.

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