CUEmu - Thread Posts

emo-kor

Fri Jan 30, 2004 10:13 pm

How I see It:

Marksman - Some ranged defence, basic use of the 3 main ranged weapons. Light ranged suport class.

Brawler - Some melee defence, Basic use of the 4 main types of melee weapons. Light tanks.

Pikeman -Low ranged defence and Highmelee defence. Slow (2.0 speed cap), (10m) range, Heavy damage. Health centered attacks and bleeds, KD attacks, able to use specials on mounts.

Fencer - High ranged defence and High melee defence. Fast (1.5 speed cap), (6m) range, Light-Med damage. Action centered attacks and bleeds andAOE attacks.

Heavy Sword - Medium ranged defence and Medium melee defence.Slow speed (2.5 speed cap), (8m) range,Medium damage. Masters of Mind centered attacks and bleeds.

TKA - High ranged defence,Low Melee defence. Fast-mediumspeed (1.75 speed cap), (5m) range, Medium damage. attacks to target one pool, no bleads, meditation/powerbost.

Comando - High melee defence and Lowranged defence. Med-Slow speed, close (17m) and medium range (55m)weapons, High damage. Ment to stand behind the melee units and offer support of heavy weapons and flame DOT. Also useful indestruction of turrets and bases. Can even hold off a number of targets on his own.

Bounty Hunter - Low ranged defence and Low melee defence. They are a power able to disable, defuff, and kill a single target fast and easlly. Very strong damage, but little or no defences.

Smuggler - Medium ranged defence, low melee defence. High damage, med speed, med range. Smuggler is adept in getting through stick situations, can disable opponents and hold his own, but not agenst overwelming numbers.

Pistoleer - Low Ranged defence, High Melee defence. Low damage, Fast speed (1.5 sec cap), Low range (45m Max). Pistoleers are adept at handling melee opponents and have moderate AOE attacks. Health targeted damage and bleeds.

Carbineer - Med ranged defence, Med Melee Defence. Med damage, Med speed (2 sec cap), Med range (55m max) Carbineers are adept at crowd controll and debuffing a group of enemys. They use AOE attacks and Bleeds to do medium damage to the whole crowd. They have action targeted attacks and bleeds.

Rifleman - High Ranged defence, Low Melee defence. High damage, Low speed (2.5 sec cap), High Range (65m max)Masters of ranged mind damage, butnot as much damageas heavy sword.

Combat Medics - Combat Healers and Chemical warfar specialists. No defences other then a dodge. Remove AOE poisen and Disease. Remove Mind Disease. Make poisens incap again.

Creature Handler - No defences. Remove CH pets from PVP. Let them only be used in PVE.

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just my 2 credits

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Emo-Kore
Tarquinas Legion

Kohhl_Steiger

Fri Jan 30, 2004 10:20 pm

#80

A big beef I have is that SWG mixes up professions with skills. That is to say you learn skills, and once you have learned those skills you become a Bounty Hunter, or you become a Smuggler. This is flat out wrong.

The prequisite for a bounty hunter is that he be able to kill his mark, through whatever means. The prerequisite for a smuggler is that he be able to transport illegal goods from point A to point B. These aren't skills ... these are JOBS, and shouldn't have any bearing on the SWG skill system.

It is wrong that Commandos are the only class who can use grenades - - - infantry soldiers are trained with grenades. It is also wrong to actually create a profession named "Commando" - - - let the player decide what he is. A commando in my book would be a combination of a ranger and marksman, with some of the SWG Commando for grenades and explosives.

I think instead of having these skills amount to some of these "professions" you should follow the route of the rifleman, the pistoleer, the carbineer... etc. These aren't professions so much as they are disciplines and that is key, because really at the end of the day a pistoleer, a rifleman, or a carbineer, or anyone for that matter, should be able to be a bounty hunter, or a smuggler .... as long as they can kill a mark, or transport goods.

Instead of listing some of these professions, concentrate on disciplines. Instead of a Commando, make it a Heavy Weapons specialist ... and put it over the Ranged Support IV like Pistoleer, Carbineer, and Rifleman are over their respective skills.

Weed out some of the other professions. Smuggler is a job. Bounty Hunting is a job. There is no Mercernary profession, thankfully, which is good because its a job too! Really they parallel with the job of soldier, and they don't belong in skill grouping. Smuggling/BH'ing/Merc work should all be regulated in a 3rd Faction, the Underworld.

Take the skills from these professions and move them elsewhere. Give slicing to a computer oriented profession. Give spices to chefs. The same can be said with Investigation from BH, and Track from Ranger. Instead of these two professions, create a Investigation discipline. A Ranger, what is that? Someone who can give me camo? Big deal, learn that in basic!

Instead of the hierarchy of skills presented, SWG would be better off if every character could follow a linear route of skills, that would assist, not determine, jobs/professions.

I'd love to see a Rifleman, with Computer/Slicing skills, who worked as a Bounty Hunter for the Underworld. What I don't like is seeing a Master Scout/Master Marksman who is an Expert Bounty Hunter, held in check by a boundary.

Chief Warrant Officer Kohhl Steiger
1st Special Operations Group - Death Knights
Imperial Special Operations Command

Daker-Naritus

Sat Jan 31, 2004 1:04 am

#81

What do you think the strengths of professions mix and match are?

Exactly as you said it allows you to mix and match professions to create a hybrid that is more powerful than each of its parts.

What do you think the weaknesses of professions mix and match are?

I don't think there are any ifall professions (AND the stacking of professions) arebalanced properly. I love the current system.

How do you think we should maintain the unique skillset flavor the game is built on?

I think the devs are getting this totally wrong by eliminating stacking. This is DEFINATELY not preverving the system. Example: A player masters both Teras Kasi AND Rifleman. Through these character templates the player would get a long range and short range weapon, plus the benefits and resistances of both classes (assume stacked).

Take another character. They master rifleman, and spend all of their other skill points on crafting.

Look at both of these players together...if you allow stacking, the Rifleman/TKA spent double the skill points on combat, and gets double the resistances for that investment. However, if you disallow stacking, what real advantage does the rifleman/TKA have over the rifleman/crafter? Despite the fact that the Rifleman/TKA spends DOUBLE skill points on combat, if you take out stacking the only real advantage is having an additional weapon. If everything is balanced properly, that additional weapon means nothing because both should be equally powerful. Without stacking, there is no advantage for mastering multiple combat professions over not.

Put simply...players who master multiple profession DESERVE to have the benefit of stacking. The problem IS NOT that players will exploit the numbers to find the "perfect" combat template. By that rationale, any player who spends all of his skill points on various combat professions is exploiting. The system is set up so that players can mix and match to their benefit, and devs are being hypocrites by now preventing that. Disallow stacking and you force players back to the EQ style "pick only one class and stick with it, because you won't get any further benefits by mastering other classes."

The real problem is this: The defense stats on all professions are TOO HIGH, so when several professions are added together, they can make the players invincible. The key for devs should be to figure out what is a reasonable maximum resistance level for players who master 2-3 combat professions, and then scale all other devensive mods back from there.

What are some neat combinations that would be good for the game?
Everything is a good, neat combination...I don't want devs to push anything. Just balance everything, and let players choose their own path.

Anything else you want to say on this subject?
Yes...you are taking the TOTAL wrong route on stacking. Please reconsider...

L35tat

Sat Jan 31, 2004 1:06 am

#82

While mixing and matching is a great idea in concept it also has to be balanced with the number of skill points you have to spend to master the profession. I am of course thinking of the now so debated bounty hunter. For 217 points it is just not worthwile to master unless you just want to play it because you like the idea of being one. You would do much better off to choose another elite fighting class like pistoleer (or espescially TKM at the time this is written) because you get roughly the same firepower (or better)with a LOT more points left to spend on other professions. The result as it is now that when all points have been spent the other professions are stronger. Consider that they for instance have the opportunity to master doctor and are able to run around fully buffed basically all the time. Compared to that BH's are nothing. If mixing like this is supposed to continue to exist then the only solution is to make the hybrid professions have some kind of edge versus other other professions. A MBH with 250 skill points spent in different combat (or healing) professions should have a roughly 50/50 chance vs another master elite profession with 250 skill points spent the same way. Sure, other professions will argue that then they can not spend points on other professions than combat (like artisan for instance)because then they will not have the same chance of win a situation like above, however that will always be the downside to a character with wider use, limited depth.

The bottom line is, mix and match is good, as long as you balanceaccording to skill points spent.

----------------------------------------------------
Vinidia Firestar - Chimaera

DreadWind

Sat Jan 31, 2004 1:11 am

#83

Mastering a skill should give more...I almost never master any advance profession because the other tree is a waste ... most profession has 1 good tree then the other 3 really isn't as good!

=[Ruination]=
My Road of SWG has ended!
Imperial 4EVER!

Toknight

Sat Jan 31, 2004 1:11 am

#84

Zutan wrote:

The single biggest problem I have with the current combat system is the way HAM works for different classes. i.e. why would you want to have 1 pistol 1 carbine and 1 rifle in a group?? They do damage to different pools and do not really contribute to killing something faster.

Currently the most powerful group is one comprised of people who all do their dmg to the same HAM pool. We need ways to focus damage to one pool.

Personally I think all combat damage should be done to Health. If Health is depleted the enemy dies. All weapons firing on autofire and most special moves should be against Health.

Action pool "damage" should only effect special moves and things like burst run. Only certain types of attacks should hurt Action pool. Action pool depletion should cause Incapacitation but not death.

Mind pool damage should effect things such as accuracy and ability to stay standing. Only certain types of attacks should damage the Mind pool. Mind pool depletion should cause incapacitation but not death.

As for professions to have some sort of role.. There should be special attacks from each profession that are designed to do something to the enemy that someone of another combat profession cant do. A few examples: Carbineer should have special moves that effect the enemies use of Action pool and Special attacks in addition to the normal Health damage they can do to contribute the the enemies death. Riflemen should have special moves to allow "single pull" of creatures from a group as well as ways to deplete and otherwise effect the Mind pool of the enemy.

I agree. The HAM system is one of the worst things about this game. Only health should lead to death or incapacitation. Action and Mind depletion should not lead to incapacitation. These pools should only be used for special abilities, each having different types of abilities that draw from it and perhaps the secondaries could be used for things such as dodge modifiers, poison resist checks, etc. For example, combat hits that do a lot of damage should take a lot of Action while hits that specifically target the Action or Mind pools in order to drainthem and prevent the target from using a special ability should take less Action and more Mind to execute. Healing should take Mind and perhaps a little Action and most combat moves should take Action and perhaps a little Mind. This would make mixing and matchinga littlemore dynamic in that each profession would need a different stat migration more than they do now and people don't have to worry about killing themselves in combat with their own abilities. People would also have afew new ways to focus their characters.

Parasite (Tarquinas)
- Teras Kasi Master / Creature Handler / Fencer -

Markis

Sat Jan 31, 2004 1:20 am

#85

What do you think the strengths of professions mix and match are?

The ability to create a template that you have fun with.

What do you think the weaknesses of professions mix and match are?

The main weakness I see is there is alot of combinations that just are not possible. There are alot of classes because they have such heavy requirements for the elite class they prevent alot of other class combinations. Is this on Purpose. Only you Devs can answer that.

How do you think we should maintain the unique skillset flavor the game is built on?

Dont change the skill points, just adjust the bonuses granted with each box. This will require some homework to balance defense and offense stacking. I think They should stack, just spread the bonuses over the whole class not just a certain line like you did with CH.

What are some neat combinations that would be good for the game?

Master Doctor / Smuggler! Not possible with the current skillset. Smuggling Illegal spices and designer drugs! No I am not a junky just would be a fun combo I think. Specially with the Smuggler content coming. Hey what can I say I like Han Solo in the original SWG trilogy, seedy character and a nice guy!

Anything else you want to say on this subject?

If alot of the outstanding bugs/Issues were addressed and not assigned a proiority and then placed on the back burner alot of the noise on the boards would go away. Its amazing how the little stuff is so important to people. Then we could get to the constructive content and improvements

Irodoko: Armorsmith

zonkrd

Sat Jan 31, 2004 1:23 am

#86

Whatever happened to the alluded to "elite" or "specialty" masters that was first mentioned with architects and player city structures? My Weaponsmith could elect to use another 30-40 pts and decide to be a Melee Weapons specialist, or my Master Heavy Swordsman could follow an elite path that gave him superior defense OR offense when wielding a bladed weapon.

I love the mix and match style of this game, it's one of the major reasons I was so pumped about it, but in all honesty it needs to cost us more to be so diverse, otherwise balancing is going to be extremely difficult. My Swordsman (in the current system) can KD, delay for 20 seconds, meditate off all of his wounds, put on some serious mind bleeds and then switch weapons and dizzy and health bleed, THEN heal himself for 800 pts with a good stim-b. All the while having both ranged and melee defenses of over 125. I love it, I have a nitch, it is as an all purpose destroying machine. Is it unbalanced? compared to someone who uses some points in something other than combat, yes. The issue I see is that the branching career system gives us the opportunity to select and choose what parts of what profession we want, why not just have branches for those skill anyway. For example, I choose the pistoleer branch and go up it for some of the specials, then I also decide to go up the speed branch a bit for some better speed, I am gonna hope I get some good armor so I am gonna skip the defenses branch and instead go up some in the offensive branch, finally out of the misc. branch I think I will choose an intimidate skill since my defense is so low.

I know this is not really an option, but it is basically how we are building our characters right now. With this set-up though you have much more control over points vs. skill gained since the branches would all apply to the profession you decided to go with.

Scrogg Emerondon
Gun Runner & Drug Dealer Extraordinaire
Proud Resident of Motor City and Leader of the Majic Bus

Toknight

Sat Jan 31, 2004 1:25 am

#87

Daker-Naritus wrote:

Put simply...players who master multiple profession DESERVE to have the benefit of stacking.

I agree with this. Players who master multiple professions should get much more benefit. I think that mastering more than one combat profession should give significant advantages over mastering just one in areas that relate to both. Let's take the Teras Kasi/Rifleman example. It would be kinda neat if having the master box in each activated some skill stacking where Teras Kasi skills such as toughness an defensive acuity worked at say 25% of their maximum capacity in addition to Rifle skills while using a rifle in addition to the melee/ranged defense mods thatdo already, and should continue to, stack.The part of stacking that is bad is when people can have multiple professions but not master them and be better than someone who mastered two at something that was particularly related to those two the second person mastered. If each profession has a predefined role, designed by the developers with an overall goal for the entire combat system in mind, this will become much easier to do and will work out better for players.

Parasite (Tarquinas)
- Teras Kasi Master / Creature Handler / Fencer -

Aet0s

Sat Jan 31, 2004 1:30 am

#88

Anything else you want to say on this subject?

PLEASE dont start "nerfing", limiting, controlling,the idea of mixing and matching professions, otherwise I'm gone.

mkummer

Sat Jan 31, 2004 1:37 am

#89

the system is nice as it is, but i think there should be more reward for everyone who masters a combat profession. I think weapon certs for master of all combat professions would be great, that would make a difference between someone who push everything in 1 profession and someone who wants to get the best things of more professions.

Sybee

ideas

Sat Jan 31, 2004 1:37 am

#90

What do you think the strengths of professions mix and match are?

As a raw game mechanic, the ability to mix and match professions is a powerful way to add variety and individualization to a game with this many players. No one is forced to choose between narrow roles, but instead has the freedom to be a powerful specialist or a versatile dabbler. If the 26 elite professions were all mutually exclusive (no mixing), then 1 in every 26 players would be just like you. There would be much less sense of individualism and choosing your own path.

What do you think the weaknesses of professions mix and match are?

The ability to blend different professions does make it harder to balance the game as a whole. So long as the myriad combinations can combine their benefits, it is difficult to predict how those combinations can be stretched for some sort of untouchable or "uber" profile. For the most part this only affects combat -- architects and tailors don't compete for the same market, so they don't have much reason to scrutinize their respective balance. To prevent this risk of combat imbalance, developers must carefully analyze the possible combinations and implement solutions that help to keep all the options on a level playing field.

How do you think we should maintain the unique skillset flavor the game is built on?

The current scheme is pretty good. There are two directions you can go with it to maintain the flavor yet improve the balance of powerand versatility.

1. Mini-Professions - Single line skill trees that have lesser game effects but allow broader access to the skills that "dabblers" want to have. For example, a Linguistics tree allows people to have all languages for a small price, rather than negating the fun uniqueness of racial languages. A Droid Command tree allows people who want more droids to pay a price without having to toss out an entire profession.

2. Ultra-Elite Professions - Making professions that require Elite Professions as their prerequisites tempts players to specialize. The more skill points that you draw into a straight line, the more easily you can predict the "uber" combinations. Even just providing strong incentives to Master one's primary professions will help to keep dabbling down.

In either case, it is very important to provide high-end skill content for the players who have spent all their Skill Points. People grow bored when their characters can only grow "sideways" rather than "up".

What are some neat combinatons that would be good for the game?

I'm not sure whether this is to get at existing profiles or to suggest all-new content... But combinations that you might want to encourage are things like:

Armorsmith or Weaponsmith + (combat class) - To encourage people to couple combat with something non-combat. It should have some unique combat benefits perhaps similar to (but not replacing) slicing. For example, put a weapon special in the Weaponsmith line that lets the trained combat weaponsmith burn out the weapons fuel core for a big-damage strike.

Merchant + (service profession) - Right now Merchant works great with artisans, but service providers like Image Designers, other Entertainers, and Medics have little abilityto make a "business" out of it. If Merchant had more benefits for general businesses, there might be some fun possibilities with entertainer-merchants.

Melee-profession + Ranged-profession - Someone who spends the extra skill points to be good at both range and melee should feel advantages to the choice. Right now a good pistoleer has little reason to switch to melee combat when the opponent gets close. Point blank shooting is quite sufficient. Add some sort of Disarm ablity to the combat classes, and suddenly the gunman finds himself vulnerable with empty hands! Give the melee-weapon profs the defenses against disarm and now there's a good reason to have some melee with your gun skills.

Rock-Paper-Scissors should be in the developers' minds when they develop combat rules around mix-and-match professions. Even if someone gets a good variety of skills, they should apply quick-thinking, tactics, and knowledge of the enemy to get the best benefits. If the enemy is clever and also versatile, they should be able to switch weapons and punch through my defense. But if the enemy is a one-trick pony, I should be doomed if I don't have a counter to that trick, and I should dominate if I do.

Anything else you want to say on this subject?

In a game with mix-and-match skill sets, it is very important to make sure that the "best" possible offense always has an equal and opposite defense. And that every defense has a weakness. Perhaps someone *can* get +100 ranged defense -- but doing so should leave them with a very low melee defense. Perhaps a combat medic *can* poison a huge group of people, but then allow people towear a gas mask instead of a helmet to survive (they are now safe from poisons, but have to worry about head attacks). In other words, make every offense have a viable defense, and make every defense leave a hole.

Here's an example:

Let's start with a single Imperial TKA / Rifleman marching through town declaring that the city is under Imperial order. He wears his Rifleman label and carries a big gun. A Rebel Brawler / Marksman / Smugglernotes this and decides to take on the rifleman. He knows riflemen (in theory) are hosed in melee, so he equips a pistol and charges in with Panic Shot.

While the rifleman is delayed, the Smuggler closes and swaps the pistol out for a big axe, engaging in melee. He gets one good solid hit. Although a TKA, the Imperial has a rifle in hand and thus should not yet have the full TKA bonuses yet. But he quickly unequips his rifle and goes into TKA mode, casually blocking the smuggler's second swing and knocking him down.

The smuggler realizes that he is now facing a capable TKA and that he has no chance in direct melee confrontation. He puts the pistol back in hand and when he stands up he starts running away and shooting. If the Imperial can keep up, he can use the melee advantage against the running Rebel. Otherwise he can switch back to rifle and attempt to snipe the marksman at range.

Whatever happens next, the combat should be about choosing capabilities for the *situation*, not choosing a profile for all-purpose advantage. There should always be a weakness that a versatile player can exploit if they are on the ball.

So, let me get this straight: To advance my character, I have to give up my current abilities?

Flurry: Ikeya Ibye (Master Droid Engineer, Master Artisan, Master Merchant)

IKEYA Grand Mall - Naboo, Moenia - Waypoint 5000 -4000

Destructo_Krillin

Sat Jan 31, 2004 1:40 am

#91

In a post a while ago you mentioned re-vamping the combat system. I think this will help, but one specific example that you mentioned about it was making weapons specific to the level of the profession. Likea Master Rifleman T-21 would be more powerful than a Novice rifleman T-21. This would be an advantage to those who wish to specialize and lower the power of the dabblers who just get the a couple columns of a certain profession. A lot of the other ideas I have read on here would work very well along with this implementataion.

Krillin Rodan
~ Rifleman ~
~ Commando ~
~ Medic ~

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