Development Cycle Archive
Thread: IC 1-11: Combat Roles; Ranger
Sorry, this forum system stinks on ice and just bounced me out for no apparent reason....
To continue,
A Rangers role in PvP is something entirely different. The ability to use /areatrack against players is really nice, but of somewhat limited use, and the use of camouflage against NPC's makes really good sense but needs to have some sort of effect against PC's as well, perhaps as a defensive bonus due to the difficulty of discerning the PC's location or outline. But Rangers should only have limited ability here, as skill in hunting large and dangerous prey is worlds apart from hunting Stormtroopers through city streets.
2 and 3. Rangers do need to have some form of weapons certifications for Hunting weapons, or something along those lines. Actual Specials that have to do with hunting would be nice as well. Smugglers, Bounty Hunters, Commandos and the slew of "pure" combat professions get specials, but the Hunting profession sees nothing that they can use against the creatures they hunt. We don't kill them with traps, you know....Also, a number of the specials from other professions appear not to work against creatures. I can use rifleman specials to make creatures dizzy, and then change their posture, but not once has this made a creature fall down despite repeated attempts. Against NPC's and PC's, these specials would be of no use. Hunting weapons would be, but any weapon can be used anywhere.....
4. Any defensive abilities need to be tied in to the wilderness hunter theme of the Ranger. Which means the majority of any defense would need to be against creatures. The only exception would be camouflage. It makes perfect sense that this skill would work against both man and beast except that it has no effect against PC's. I understand why it can't remove us from radar or make us "invisible" to sight or make PC's unable to autotarget us with the tab key, as those are just screaming for grief, but as I said above, a defensive bonus in combat owing to our blending in with our surroundings is not unreasonable.
5. Any unique combat abilities would need to be limited to creature combat and not PvP/PvE. If possible, a defense against special attacks would be useful and unique. I'm not asking for total immunity, but a reasonable chance that a creatures special doesn't work against a particular Ranger due to his understanding of the creature and his knowledge in the ways of fighting it.
6. As above, any advantage or asset in group combat should be limited to being against creatures, but against creatures a Ranger should be a tremendous asset. Currently we are limited to giving information about a creature that others can't see upon examination, but adding group bonuses against the creatures being fought would make sense. Some creature hunting shared skills similar to squad leader group specials would work well, but only if they didn't step on the toes of the squad leader profession.
7 and 8. Ranger interaction with other professions in a non-combat fashion is already good, but Rangers should compliment other, purer combat professions only in regards to creature hunting (except for the camo thing). All thoughts on Rangers and combat should concentrate on the hunting of creatures. As I have stated numerous times, the only PvE skill a Ranger should possess should be the camouflage skill. Camouflage works the same against man or beast visually, and olfactory camouflage is lost on most sentients (however, a bonus against camouflage by smell-sensative aliens is a fine balance to this skill).
9. It's hard to come up with dependancies for the Ranger profession, but allowing BE's to supply us with the fixings for camo kits would be nice, and hunting only weapons would give weaponsmiths more items to craft. Our interactions will always be the harvest of organics for crafters, and Rangers should be considerably better at this than Scouts, owing to the higher skill. As it is now, I only see a limited, small difference in harvest sizes between Scout and Ranger. To be realistic, harvesting should get amounts of all available resources from a creature. When I dress out a deer, I have hide meat and bone when I am done, but in SWG I have to choose between one. Keep it balanced, though. If I get 60 units of a resource from a creature now, I should actually get something like 20 of each meat hide and bone to total 60 units. This might not sit well with others, but offers a more realistic view of hunting for profit.
10. This is a hard one, but I'm often reminded of the Russian hunters who played hell with German troops during WW2. These hunters were used to the environment, excellent shots, and made the invaders pay for setting foot in the Motherland. But, they were solitary, undisciplined people. In the GCW, a lone Ranger should be able to make use of his or her wilderness skills to ambush the unwary, lead enemies into the lairs of ferocious creatures, ect, but I wonder at the ability of the design team to do this. Currently, I have had many Faction mission sites spawn next to aggressive MOB's with absolutely no interaction between the two. The MOB's will certainly aggro on me, or on other creatures in the area, but never on the Faction NPC's.
(Case in point. On Naboo, I had a faction mission spawn very close to both a Rogue Fambaa and some Spineflap Guards and Soldiers. The Fambaa started roaming, passing within 15 meters of my Faction spawn and then running over to the Spineflaps to fight with them. If I had walked un camo'd anywhere near either spawn I would have been buried by them....)
Aggro MOBs should attack everyone, not just PC's and the occassional other aggro MOB, but that is a kind of pet peeve. All in all, a Rangers Camo ability as well as the ability to track PC and NPC give us some usefullness in the GCW, but may need expansion to allow them to fit more fully into the role of a wilderness hunter recruited to give the other side trouble.
What defines theRanger role in combat?
As stated a wider role than just combat is envisaged by the Ranger community, the Outdoorsman posting of NRAS forms a fair view of how allot of rangers would like to see the profession develop into somthing worthwhile. My general feel is though that a ranger should be capable of soloing against some tough animals (presumably backed by a relevant combat profession) and offer useful group support.
What basic combat elements should they possess?
Supporting and complimentary skills mainly. Stealth (against animals and NPCs), trap debuffs etc.
Crowd control for creatures.
What offensive abilities?
The accuracy bonus against animals is a fair idea, although to be worthwhile it needs to apply to special attacks and/ or when moving (hopefully combining with that terrain negotiation and traps to make us into reasonable skirmishers/ pullers).
Traps should be out main edge. The ability to effectively debuff creatures by slowing down attacks, inducing states, inflicting direct HAM damage vis traps. Currently, state effects can be inflicted just as easily, far quickerand with far more damage by any advanced combat profession.
What defensive abilities?
The ability to add stealth to a group, against both animals and humans either in the form of surprise attack bonuses or in assistance to single pulling. Some form of defensive bonus against creatures or creature toughness as previously mentioned would be nice, but in the balance of things rangers should be useful suuporting members to groups and not alternative tanking professions for fighting creatures.
What unique abilities?
The only profession with traps - I know BHs are seeking traps and I dont necessarily disagree with this, but for uniqueness of professions these should be specialised weapon refinements.
Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?
Rangers should be an important asset when fighting high level creatures, enough to make groups actively seek them out. Currently we have little value fighting any creatures in groups, although traps do help if soloing. In group combat creatures are currently either 80% dead by the time the first trap hits or are simply immune to the effects. As hunting skills increase traps need to effect far higher level creatures than they do now and be thrown allot faster. A distinct advantage should exist to having a ranger in a hunting group.
Bonus' to group harvesting depending upon the rangers experience may also make them more desirable in groups, although this is unlikely to add anything in terms of excitement to playing the profession.
After combat camps should have a use. Apart from medical buffs following the next patch they will have no practical effect; despite 28 skill points being required to master. NRAS's post on modular camps seems to have gained popular support as an interesting aspect of the profession amongst both rangers and scouts.
How could/should they interact with other professions?
Rangers should be a versitile all-round supporting profession.
What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?
Rangers should be the chosen profession when seeking harvested resources and should be fairly independant on their own. Greater need for specific crafted items from other professions wouldnt necessarily be a bad thing though.
Tracking providing Way Points would create a far more useful interaction role when hunting for specific orders for traders, locating people for Bounty Hunters etc.
Foraged herbs being stackable would make them actually usable be other players. This should not interfere with the Chefs abilities as the effects are comparatively very weak.
What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?
Stealth and infiltration into faction camps etc. Ability to track down opposing faction members.
What defines theRanger role in combat? The creature to-hit bonus, and the eventual larger harvest. The to-hit bonus isn't enough because you can't even tell if it works or notice much of a difference in general.
What basic combat elements should they possess? No change.
What offensive abilities? Ability to trap Player Pets and have to-hit bonuses apply to them as well.
What defensive abilities? Knowledge of creatures should extend to their habits, allowing a greater block/dodge modifier.
What unique abilities? Camps and Traps... and a Hunting Lodge.
- Camps need to be fixed to work properly, and changed in some respects. If I make a High Tech Field Base it should serve as a base of operations in the field, I should not have to be anchored to it and watch everyone else have fun.
- Traps need to work on Player Pets, period. Traps need to be designed and implemented. Remember that post from way back, for Q-3PO I believe it was, outlining a handful of new traps. We need to see those or something like it. Traps for NPCs would nice, but I know there's a conflict between Ranger?BH on this.
- A Hunting Lodge would be a great idea, something to set up apart more than 'token' abilities. Anyone with scout and camp, trap, and harvest. But nothing stands out in Ranger, making it just an Advanced Scout. Allow us to be able to place a lodge, crafted by an Architect, using 'X' number of lots, on non-buildable worlds. These will allow us to base our Ranger adventures on these planets instead of always taking the shuttle, or loitering at the boring and bland outposts. What Unique Abilities? I can change this question to "Why would I want to switch from 'so and so' profession to Ranger?" Something has to jump at you and make your friends say "How cool is that!?!?" This is one answer. This would really set us apart.
Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?Traps and Camps, as previously stated.
How could/should they interact with other professions?
- Artisan-type: organics for crafting, Architects crafting Hunting Lodges
- Medic-type: organics for crafting
- Melee-type: combat skill for Rangers
- Marksman-type: combat skill for Rangers
- Entertainment-types: should be able to conduct full healing and buffing in camps, same as in cantinas. Their healing/buffing effectiveness should tie into the healing modifier. Better camp, better healing/buffing.
What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants? There are no real 'other combatants'. One can not be very successful as a Ranger without some sort of other combat profession. So in effect we are the 'other combatants'.
What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War? Rangers are the ultimate tracker, and are bound to planets. For the GCW we can track faction targets (NPC/PC) in the wild, or finding anything in general in the wild. Secret bases, rogue faction agents, etc.
Overall: I agree with the Outdoorsman concept in general. My summary for making Ranger worth the skill points is to fix and tweak the camps, implement the promised traps and make them usable on Player Pets, give us the new Hunting Lodge structure. I don't get into all of the bonuses and +5s and all of that. Give me some eye candy, give me some effectiveness, give me a reason to say "This is awesome! I'm so glad I'm a Ranger".
-Bayhne, Wanderhome Master Ranger
What defines theRanger role in combat?
Wilderness movement, survival, and creature mitigationshould define the Ranger.
What basic combat elements should they possess?
They should at least get CDEF weapon and knife certifications without having to take those in the other lines, or perhaps a special Ranger bowie knife and rifle if cert duplication is an issue. Traps are good but I would also request something similar to a mine field to place around and safeguard their camps.
What offensive abilities?
Traps, placeable traps similar to mine fields, and at least a basic Ranger ranged and melee weapon certification and perhaps some special moves with them, Rifleman's Take Cover for instance. Bonus to hit & damage creatures.
What defensive abilities?
Camouflage against wild critters & NPCs - possibly PCS to an extent, high Wilderness mobility, and placeable traps (like minefields).
What unique abilities?
Deploy trap/mine fields, a limited number out as a time - similar to lots but of a different pool. Offer group movement bonuses outdoors.
Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?
They should offer the Terrain Negotiation bonus that Squad Leaders currently offer their groupmates. Group masked scent would help them move amongst hostile animals.
How could/should they interact with other professions?
Offer quick & safe passage through the wilderness (camovs. animals/NPCs - vehicles though quick attract too much attention) and enemy trap/mine fields. Create camoflage kits to aid with Commando base infiltration I mentioned in the other thread. Create forward deployed camps for allies. Keep enemy creature handler pets in check.
What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?
Aid Commandos in infiltration of enemy defenses, camouflage and minefield mitigation. Give Riflemen a Take Cover bonus when using Ranger's camouflage. Obvious bonus vs. Creature Handler pets. Depend other combat types vs. NPCs, vehicles/armored units, & structures.
What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?
Rangers should secure wilderness passage for their GCW allies, act as forward reconnaisance, and secure the advancement to faction controlled areas from enemy incursion.
NRaas wrote:
"The ranger community has prepared a new concept, "The Outdoorsman," "
For everyone not familiar with the proposal,there is a link in my signature.
Yeah! What he said. Check it out.
I have to say please read the outdoorsman concept thread pretty much sums up what im thinking.
Thank you.
theshagnasty wrote:
Calculus_Entropy wrote:
The ranger community has prepared a new concept, "The Outdoorsman," (via Nraas) concerning this very topic, and I feel that would be the best way to answer your questions. Please refer to the document he sent you (TH) or to the ranger forum thread called (ironically) "The Outdoorsman."
I fully support and endorse "The Outdoorsman" view of the Ranger Profession.
Thanks for asking btw....
same here
JonnyW wrote:
For all the ppl that say a ranger should not be combat orrientated and just be good at killing animals I suggest telling that to a U.S. Army Ranger and see how long its takes him to whoop your ass
As far as the combat aspect of a SWG Ranger, I could not agree more. I like the Outdoorsman idea, but I want some combat ability like a Army Ragner as well.