Development Cycle Archive
Thread: IC 1-11: Combat Roles; Ranger
I cannot improve on what has been said above, so I won't try. Just want to add my voice to these few things.
Ranger Combat: Traps vs. Players please.
Camps: Make them valuable. Field bases should not disappear during combat and should act as a medical center/cantina. In fact, make them mobile with X amount of hit points. You can place it then pick it up again and move it, until enemies destroy it or it degrades enough, such as with the swoops.
Thanks!
What defines theRanger role in combat?
Two views, one is the ultimate creature hunter, another being stealth, recon in the wilderness. Possibly a combination of both.
What basic combat elements should they possess?
Creature hunter:
Bonuses, both offensive and defensive, when attacking creatures, this should apply to pets as well, if we could specialise the proffessionsmore (rangers to bring down creature handlers, commandos on structures and vehicles ect) then tactics will have a greater role in the GCW. Traps, again they should work on pets.
Stealth/recon.
Ability to set traps that will affect players, plus /conceal to work against players to a certain degree. (more on that later)
What offensive abilities?
Creature hunter:
As above, bonuses to hit creatures, including pets, and a greater variety of effective traps. Ability to place camps that can last a battle, even battle from within a camp (hunting bind).
Stealth/recon.
Traps that work on PC's.
What defensive abilities?
Creature hunter:
Defensive mods vs creatures (including pets), camps that keep creatures out (including pets)
Stealth/recon
/conceal, ability to disappear of the radar with limitations.
What unique abilities?
Creature hunter:
Traps.
stealth/recon
conceal should work on players to a certain degree. It should only work in the wilderness, so not in cities or dungeons. Only works to within a certain distance of an enemy PC. (64 or 32m) I relize balancing issues would come into play if the ranger was allowed to shoot form this position so i am not suggesting they be able to. However i am suggesting they be able to use....
TRAPS.
Rangers should be able to place stationary traps that work on PC's. They should be ableto place these traps while they are concealed. They wont be able to place the traps if there is an enemy within a certain distance.
Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?
Creature Hunter:
The member of the group most able to handle creatures, both wild and pets. The ability to place camps to aid in healing ect...
stealth/recon
Ability to scout out an enemy force without being detected and place traps to hamper their advancement.
How could/should they interact with other professions?
Rangers should have a greater ability to collect hides/bone/meat than any other proffesion.
Having a ranger along on any trip cross country should be a must.
What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?
Creature hunter:
counteract creature handlers.
stealth/recon
supporting role to the heavier hitting combat types, advising of enemy movments, generally making it difficult of the enemy to move around quickly.
What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?
I don't believe in Rangers being an exclusive profession. Mastery still allows for mastery in another combat related profession. Rangers should do alot, given who they are, but they shouldn't be everything alone.
What defines the Ranger role in combat?
- Combat preparedness. Knowing the terrain, getting the folks out there safely, finding the target(s), establishing a camp from which to conduct assaults.
- Combat assistance. Debuffing and crowd control through traps.
We could use additional traps, and have experimentation matter:
What basic combat elements should they possess?
- Advanced Adhesive Mesh (Lasts longer)- Higher experimentation can result in more charges or longer lasting effect.
- Advanced Darts (DoT or DD)- Higher experimentation for damage and/or duration of DoT
- New Trap- Statis Field- similar to something proposed way back, when a trap would be placed and a mob lured to it. This could be to allow Bio-Engineers the ability to safely get DNA
Traps of various types. More offensive abilities can come from learning weaponry in other lines.
What offensive abilities?
A Ranger without other skills is something, but to advance at all, they need combat skills. A Ranger's knowledge of the natural world should provide incredible bonuses to their combat skills. A hefty boost to accuracy if firing from high altitude. A good bonus for running while firing if a Pistoleer or Carbineer. Someone who can call random mobs to their aid in a fight outdoors (similar to EQ variable-duration charm).
What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?
This would greatly enhance their effectiveness in both PvE and PvP fights.
Also, Traps should have variable effectiveness in PvP. Debuffs like the Glow Wire Trap should work much better on mobs that have no armor than on players that do. But armor-independent ones like Sonic Pulse or Flash Bomb (stun and blind) should be able to affect players. Same with Adhesive Mesh and the DoTs. This would give Rangers some amount of usefulness in the GCW, and in fact ties closely to Lore enough to be believable (Boba and Jengo Fett both used traps on people).
What defines the Ranger role in combat?
Currently, there is no advantage of being a ranger in combat, I have been both melee and a ranged weapon Ranger and for me, that is only a means to an end. That end is killing and skinning creatures for fun and profit. When a ranger is in a group, they have the responsibility for
1) providing basic protection via camoflauge to the entire party
2) providing vital information on how to kill the creatures the party encounters (weaknesses etc.)
3) leading the group to find where the creatures are.
4) rescuing the party members when they get too close or when the medic is in trouble.
All of these are good skills when used properly, however when theres a group with the "big guns" who really cares if the people are protected, when the biggest weapons can take down some of the largest critters in the game, often times damage is more important than tactics, creating a hack and slash environment that lacks creativity and finesse.
What basic combat elements should they possess?
The basic combat elements they should have are as such, a creature dodge ability: the rangers know their quarry and know the terrain, maybe a creature damage mitigation for the ranger? Also a critical hit to creatures that progresses as the level of the ranger increases as well. Once again, we know the animals that we face and whether ranged or melee, we know where to hit and we know how to hit the animals.
What offensive abilities?
The offensive abilities in PVE should be traps, traps and more traps, a greater variety in Ranger traps should be available (see the outdoorsman) it is somewhat disappointing when the best traps that the ranger has are found in the scout line. Once again, the creature critical hit would be appropriate. Also the idea of a ranger specific weapon like a high tech compound bow or a trap launcher would really add to the unique offensive support of the ranger.
In PVP, the traps (only for the rangers, as they are "trap masters") should work on player pets, players and npc's.
What defensive abilities?
The defensive abilities, like a creature damage mitigation or a dodge would suffice.
What unique abilities?
This is the heart of the argument, Rangers are not that different than scouts, we do exactly what they do, only a little bit better.
1) we shold be able to harvest trophies from our kills (bone or tooth necklaces, skulls, or entire skeletons for display.) It would be a nice addition to the game to see a more rugged appearance for the ranger, wearing a Kimo tooth necklace, or have a rancor skeleton in their house. This would also add the marketabiltiy of the ranger so that we are no longer merely "player harvestors" for other professions.
2) conceal should not make us invisible, but it should add a level of stealth to the game in PVE and PVP. mask scent is the application of musk, conceal is breaking up a familiar pattern (a humanoid form) into the natural environment for stealth purposes, the army applies camo to its uniforms and to their faces for this exact reason.
Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?
In group combat, we should be able to have the /track command we should be able to spawn creatures (according to the ranger's level) so that for any big game hunts, we would be absolutely essential.
How could/should they interact with other professions?
Rangers already have a unique interdependance with most other professions, artisans, armorsmiths, squad leaders, bio-engineers, doctors. This is well thought out and good for us as well as the professions we support and befriend
What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?
Once again, read the outdoorsman, this is a wonderful example
What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?
If rangers are masters of the wild, we should be able to use the terrain to our advantage, while the squad leader allows us to shoot well, the ranger would apply negatives to the other team because the ranger would lead the group into wooded areas, high ground, or a myriad of other tactical tricks to allow their team to succeed
I love being a ranger, thanks for the opportunity to post my views.
Lastly NRaas is doing an amazing job and his "OUTDOORSMAN" document is pure genius.
Before I start, let me just say that our correspondent, Nraas, has done an amazing job compiling our views, issues and suggestions. Please read and re-read his state of the profession stuff, Devs =)
What defines the Ranger role in combat?
In PvE combat against creatures, we should be unrivaled - elite hunters feared by Gnort and Krayt alike. Yes, Commandos can do tons of damage with their flamethrowers, but when was the last time anyone hunted with heavy weaponry?
What offensive abilities?
Much higher damage to creatures - a multiplier, faster rate of hits (might not be worth it to Pistoleer/TKA Rangers though), chance of critical hit, etc. I'd also love to see an ability, much like the Squad Leader has, to tell everyone in the hunting party which part of the beast is weakest, thereby increasing group damage to the creature.
What defensive abilities?
Animal dodge bonuses - I should know how to avoid taking damage from a beast because I've studied ot extensively.
What unique abilities?
Please please PLEASE bring camo back. It's not even gone yet, and I miss it. It needs to work against NPCs, at least at a limited range - 20+ meters would be fine.
Let us use special moves on mounts, make our mounts move faster than others', and increase the tracking range to compensate for groups of swoopers who can find things better than the masters.
Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?
We should be able to root and delay creatures to provide crowd control. On a side note, traps become useless at an elite level - they need to work on MUCH larger creatures, such as Kimogilas and Albatrosses, and even Krayts. Right now the biggest things we can trap die in a few seconds when we're in a large hunting party.
How could/should they interact with other professions?
Cross-profession interaction is already pretty good for Rangers - we could use a better harvest bonus, perhaps double what a master scout would get for a single resource, and the ability to harvest all the resources from an animal at a slightly reduced rate.
What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?
We definitely need other people with us to hunt, and that's fine with me. However, considering that I'm a Hunt Master, I'd like to actually be a vital member of the team, with abilities that are invaluable when taking on large game.
What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?
Add faction status color coding to the /areatrack command. This would be excellent for planning raids, because we could see the names of everyone who was an overt member of the opposing faction, and their distance from us.
1. A Rangers role in combat needs to be defined by his or her skill as a hunter and outdoorsman. Rangers understand the strengths and weaknesses of creatures, but can not pass that skill on except to tell everyone that "creature A has the special attack of intimidate and mild poison". Rangers should have skills similar to the squad leader in that they can be shared with people they are grouped with ONLY WHEN FIGHTING CREATURES. Being able to share the creature to hit bonus, or some sort of defensive bonus would be great. We can already share camouflage, albeit in a very difficult and time consuming fashion as each individual must be camo'd. Setting it up so that an entire group can be camo'd at once would be very nice.
(See my post about Scouts)
Rangers should be extreme versions of Scouts -- better traps, better camps.
They should have some traps that might be effective against people (though less effective than those same traps are against creatures).
They should be able to get more information about the enemy through a tracking ability. Perhaps they can determine a person's armor, weapons, or profession (show all professional titles currently available to the person), and thereby provide an intelligence advantage that no other person can match.
Barring a true spy profession, they should be the spies and information-gatherers of the GCW.
NRaas' <a href="http://members.shaw.ca/nraas/ranger/outdoorsman.html">Outdoorsman</a> is pretty close to what Iwant for myself as a Ranger.
I'm not in 100% agreement on some of the specifics of how things actually work, but I do agree 100% with the overall abilities/skills.
That's a good intermediary step between what is now and what Outdoorsman could be way down the road (as in, it's a lot of work
).
Thunderheart wrote:
What defines theRanger role in combat?
Rangers should not neccessarily be mighty warriors, particularly in pvp, but should expert hunters and be able to use their surroundings in the wilderness to their advantage when fighting NPCs and such.
What basic combat elements should they possess?
Since a ranger is not derived from a combat profession, adding on a combat profession should be required to fight with the exception of traps. Traps should be effective in combat against both animals and people. You should not ever be able to kill something with a trap, but it should severely mess them up.
What offensive abilities?
I would say they should have the ability to use their knowledge of animals to deliver "critical strikes" that occasionally bring animals down in one hit. This should work for either melee or ranged. Rangers should also be given small bonuses with respect to creature handling since that would seem to be a natural for a ranger as well.
What defensive abilities?
Ranger conceal right now is worthless... COMPLETELY worthless. As I'm sure you guys know, you spent a lot of time developing it, and nobody uses it because it is worse then mask scent (just like scout traps are better than ranger traps, and scout tents are better than ranger tents, but I digress). I think this is where it should shine. Make conceal give a substantial defensive bonus when in the wildnerness.
What unique abilities?
See above (trapping, critical strikes, conceal). One additional ability that I'd like to see rangers have that is not combat-based is given SUBSTANTIAL bonuses in fishing. Everyone knows that fish are almost non-existant in SWG because they are so difficult to aquire. You guys could do what you always do and make it the domain of scouts, but how about just once think about Rangers?
Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?
Conceal can be applied to the whole group (like it can now, only it should actually do something worthwhile). traps should mess a creature up, making them easier to bring down for the whole group. Of course to make this useful traps do need to work on big, strong creatures.
How could/should they interact with other professions?
Rangers should be "master huntsmen" so should be THE suppliers of creature resources to craftsmen. This is not the case now because ranger harvests are not big enough relative to scouts to make ranger worthwhile, and since rangers have NO advantages in combat, they are pretty much worthless hunters.
If you were to try to come up with an ideal hunter template I can guarantee you it would not include master ranger right now, simply because you made the skill point cost so great and the advantages minescule. This is what needs to be fixed to make ranger a valuable member of the community and actually useful to other professions. Right now, ranger has got to be one of the most useless professions in the game.
What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?
Rangers are supposed to be "self reliant" to a degree. I mean they're supposed to be able to survive out in the woods for long periods of time and so forth. But they are also not the types who are going to "storm the castle", so are very reliant on other warrior classes when it comes to big fighting campaigns. Also, of course, rangers are reliant on all artisan classes for supplies.
What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?
Rangers should not have a big role in the civil war imho. Rangers are independent minded explorers and outdoorsmen who are primarily interested in preserving the wilderness and PVE. They should, however, be valuable members of the community at large, and the premier suppliers to all artisan classes who require creature resources (egg, fish, milk, hide, bone, meat). Right now they don't even serve that role, so they are pretty much worthless.
"While a Scout is comfortable in the wilderness, a Ranger thrives in it." - SWG Prima Guide
I have been a Ranger for many months. People who know me view me as a great hunter and rightfully so. People who know me view me as a great explorer and rightfully so. If anyone knows where to hunt langlatches at, it is I. If anyone knows a particular location or POI, it is I. I live for the hunt. I live to explore. My home is the Dune Sea of Tatooine, the Planes of Lok and the Great Western Grass Planes of Naboo. I delight in the interior of Yavin 4, away from the outposts and hints of civilization. I am The Outdoorsman.
It's tough to expound on all the work NRass and the Ranger community have done in reviving the Ranger profession and molding it into the proposal we've stated. I support the vision in the link stated above ( the link is in Nrass' signature if the one above does not function).
A Ranger in combat should be able to know the weaknesses of creatures and use that knowledge to his or her advantage (modifiers). Ranger traps should produce desirable damage and status effects to high level creatures. We should have the ability to use these on NPC's and player pets. We should be able to conceal ourselves and our group from NPC's. We should have a wide variety of traps, just as the Scout's do. Melee Rangers and Ranged Rangers should both get the 'To Hit' modifier.
In the GCW, the Ranger should create the base camp. Camping needs a serious overhaul and the link above points to an excellent idea: The Modular Camp. Camps must repel aggro and Ranger camps must not disband during combat. A Ranger should be able to go at least 500 meters from his or her camp without it auto-disbanding. The Ranger should also be able to scout ahead of the group with ease above that of a regular scout. This would include swimming bonuses and additional terrain negotiation modifiers. The Ranger should also be the supplier of choice to their faction when it comes to hide, meat and bone. Above a scout, a Ranger should make use of ALL available material on hunted creatures and at a significant increase in harvested materials.