Development Cycle Archive

Thread: Crafting Experimentation Changes... resolution.

Ail
Mon Mar 15, 2004 4:25 pm
#53

I don't think most of you realize what will happen...


If anything comes out better than post patch so many schematics will be made Tuesday evening that the top current crafters will never produce anything else.



By asking those changes to be pulled you just doomed any future crafter that will try to master their profession and start a business.....







Aildiin Rifleman/Doctor,Rastar Master Armorsmith Master Artisan, Aildin TK

Shop located SW of Bestine at -1907 -4348

Best sellers
: Soldier's armor ( 62% elec, 54% base, 473/406/492 ham) 147k/set,
Advanced Space marine armor ( 80% energy, 70% elec, 62% base, 539/456/514 ham)252k/set,
Tera Kasi Master armor (composite 80% kinetic 70% electricity, 62% base 513/455/525 ham)252k/set,
Brawler's armor (ubese 75% kinetic 313/363/427 ham) 100k/set

JanxSpirit
Mon Mar 15, 2004 4:25 pm
#54

YES!!!



get on board the Falcon kid, Ashlanne's gonna blow !
ZetaLancer
Mon Mar 15, 2004 4:25 pm
#55

I never really understood the changes. Right now, the maximum value an item can be experimented for is directly related to the total statistical value of the resources. This change would do what, decrease the value of each experimentation point? I think many community members saw that they're items would get weaker and immediately trashed the idea. Perhaps if the devs had given some examples of how the changes would work, players would have had a slightly better response to it.


The biggest problem with the changes, in my opinion, is that the Masters will get stronger and the non-masters weaker. The crafter system is truly unfair; it takes hour upon hour of mindless, boring grinding to become a master craftman, spending hundreds of thousands of credits in the process. While that value will easily be made back, a craftsman cannot hope to sell his wares until he reaches master or near-master so long as the pros are charging less for better goods.


If there is any fix that needs to be made to crafting, it would be a revamp of the professions entirely so that increased skills allow greater experimentation of items by category, rather than all. What I mean is, a weaponsmith should be able to fully experiment on all weapons granted at level 1 boxs by earning the experimentation skill at the same level.


This idea may be too radical for some, but I am certain it will greatly improve the professions as far as novices are concerned.


Zeta Atreides, Intrepid


P.S. /yay for listening to the community!



Zeta Atreides
Intrepid's Only Handsome Zabrak
Proud Member of PHX and House Atreides
Cafa
Mon Mar 15, 2004 4:29 pm
#56

And so we we still get NOTHING for achieving Master anything in the game. 840 OQ will always mean max of 84%. It amazes me that people shoot their own toes off to spite change.

Fivo Asia



- Strength In Numbers - Loyal Subjects of the Empire
Asia Brothers Industries - Asia Hall SiN CiTY, Dantooine (Offers Vendor at -4703 -1404)
A player bodyguard can't protect you either, something agroes you, you are dead. The
only difference between a pet and the person, is you pay the person to stand there
and watch you die. -- Straker Atrella

Snikrop
Mon Mar 15, 2004 4:31 pm
#57


Leiser wrote:


Droid-S128 wrote:
I am disappontied that this is not going in. I hope you continue to work at it, for I really like the changes.


SO am i, something needs to change and because change is never accepted well even if its for the better of the game the devs are just giving in to a bunch of whiners. Oh well, i guess this game is suppossed to be boring and lack any challenge at all.



I think the most important thing to take away from this discussion was that the bulk of the posters weren't trying to prevent change. They were, rightly so, pointing out that the changes being made did not achieve the results the Devs said they would. snipaho posted:


Chrysalide wrote:

"When a majority of the equipment on the server is top of the line, there is very little reason for customers to seek out new sellers, and new vendors find it difficult to break into the business."

From the Publish 7 patch notes:

"Adjusted experimentation so that the overall quality of resources will play a larger role in how much or how little someone could experiment with an item's attributes... This will help give master crafters more of an advantage over their less skilled counterparts in this area."


If your goal is to combat these "monopolies", you sure as heck aren't going to fix it by making those people who run the monopolies even more powerful than noobie crafters. Starting Tuesday morning, new crafters are even more screwed, and the monopolies become stronger. People will always buy from the best, and the only way to be the best is to be a monopoly with your 12 experimentation points and huge resource supplies/buying power. No novice crafter stands a chance to sell anything that needs to be experimented on.


Creating a stronger tie between resource stats and the stats of the final product only makes master crafters that have been on since the beginning of the game have more of a monopoly due to the rare spawns of key resources in the crafting process.

-Is it their fault that being on since the beginning puts them ahead of the new crafters? No.
-Is the increased resource stat dependence discourage new master crafters from entering the profession and ultimately producing equally high level goods? Yes.
-Does the resultant set of goods have more variety? No. For example as the weapons market is looking for high-damage, low speed weapons across the board, making it harder to craft said weapons doesn't decrease demand for said weapons. Weapons and armor are taxed the most in the new set up as they have to experiment in multiple areas to get desired stats.



" When you go to sleep, if you in fact sleep, does it take two star wars fans' blood to calm your nerves or are you higher than that now?

justG - When I am trying to go to sleep, and I am tossing and turning at night, the things that keep me up at night are combat, and jedi, and spaceflight, and things like that. Let me tell you this, we absolutely LOVE our jobs. And we LOVE this game. We are dedicated to doing whatever we can to enhance your play experience. And it usually only takes one fan's blood to drift off...
" JustG
BabyRancor
Mon Mar 15, 2004 4:31 pm
#58

Going forward...


Yes, this change was not destined to achieve what it was supposed to - however the overall reason for proposing the changes does remain valid.


To expand on a few:


- players are overpowered relative to the environment, in large part due to the very high quality of player crafted goods (weapons and armour) and the power of doctor buffs (making HAM costs completely irrelavant to most players);


-the economy on most servers is over-inflated, due mostly to the uncontrolled entry of credits into the economy and the lack of sufficient sinks. What sinks do exist are not fun (ex. maintenance) in that you can't spend money to get something, you have to spend money to prevent something bad (ex. house disappearing).


- skill enhancing attachments are a huge market and create a large disparity between haves and have-nots. This is due to the consistent spawning of tapes in "treasure chest" type items in caves that pose no challenge. Thus you have AFK people camping those spots to gain tapes and sell them for whatever the market will bear.


These issues are all crucial to the health of the game as a whole (moreso than any profession balance or new content issues). Please open up a topic aimed at soliciting input from the player base as to how these problems may be fixed as soon as possible.



Jakkin Darkstrider - Master Rifleman/ Master TKA - Sunrunner
"This utopia seems to be more of a Fruitopia"


Combat Balance Proposal Discussion
Jedi Quest System Proposal
woat
Mon Mar 15, 2004 4:31 pm
#59

It's nice to hear that they're actually reading feedback and taking it into consideration.


Thank you SOE!

Hattermad
Mon Mar 15, 2004 4:32 pm
#60

I'd like to thank you for listening, and suggest what I hope you will find are some constructive ideas for revisions which are this major. For the record, I support a change 'of this type' which actually leads to greater variation in items, but I don't believe this change (as many others didn't) would end in the intended result.


My suggestions:


1) Be clear on the changes being made. The conjecture at the initial announcement of this change before any clarification caused almost as much damage to it as the change itself. Change is an emotional issue and is simply made worse by a lack of understanding.


2) Set up a 'test center 2' with copied characters from other servers. This server would exist only for the testing period, but would allow volunteers to bring over their own resources and character to really test the changes empirically. This would give you a lot more real live data than the Test Center community alone.


3) If the result of the change is of detriment to the quality of many crafted items (as this one was), please say so, and please expand on how you intend to combat the 'pre-patch' market in order to prevent the current crafters from having to take advantage of the pre-patch period, and enabling new crafters to start without a major disadvantage. With enough notice, even something along the lines of 'Every pre-patch item will become unrepairable, and every crate or schematic unusable.' would actually be successful - the secret really is in the communication, and though you won't please everyone, informed people aren't filling the air with rumour and conspiracy.


4) Lastly, there was a major issue here at the feeling that correspondents were being 'gagged' by their posts being deleted. As these guys are our voice, most players are understandably emotional about any action taken behind the scenes, whether reasoned or not (as we don't know) that would suggest these voices are being somehow hampered or ignored.


I look forward to a future revamp of this change which truly achieves what you've set out to do and provides us with a decent base for the galaxies we enjoy so much. I appreciate the explanations which have become available during the change, and though I think some of the emotion could've been averted by having provided some of this information being provided at the proposal stage, I appreciate that you guys are learning too. You have a very passionate fan base who really want to see this game succeed. Some of us aren't the best at expressing things constructively, but In this case I think you've done a good job at filtering through the emotion to get to the core of the problem.



Hat.

Master Weaponsmith, Master Artisan, Novice Carbineer and general dabbler.
Vendor in Mos Krayt "Arms, Armour and Loot" market tent, Tatooine.
Check planetary map under vendors-weapons if you get lost.

Please offer any auction wins to my vendor at the agreed price (if multiple items, divide
the price evenly across the items - please don't use a container)
PadreBook
Mon Mar 15, 2004 4:33 pm
#61

Good call, guys! Thumbs up!

I would like to suggest that you do some specific testing on LIVE Servers (preferably on Friday Night through Sunday Evening for most accurate load levels) with the current crafting system to see what we are talking about when we say that we get 10-15% critical failures. Also the rate is noticably higher when higher quality resources and/or optional enhancements are used. We aren't imagining that--the rate of critical failures particularly on experimentation is far higher than your stated percentage of 5%!

Padre
nojediiam
Mon Mar 15, 2004 4:33 pm
#62


I was against the change to experimentation, but since they will be on live for a bit...


Perhaps you could leave the changes to crafting in through the weekend to give everyone a chance to test them out for themselves?


Then everyone could give you feedback based on actual testing as I have relied on others for my information, people I trust, but there is nothing like testing for yourself and formulating a truly informed opinion.





_Posli on Talus near Dearic: Master Weaponsmith (+29 Exp / +24 Asm)
_____My Current Weapons Menu_____
Miner / Master Pistoleer / Merchant
--Talus Arch Tech and Architect Vendors--
Just use /waypoint 1525 -2700 once on Talus, look for the Arch


CaLVines
Mon Mar 15, 2004 4:33 pm
#63

Thank you for listening.

As happy as I am you don't go forward with this, I jsut have to say one more thing:

Did we learn something from this? Maybe that if you know you are making so significant changes, and even state that "we decided to move forward with the change, provided that we put up a post to the players explaining exactly what the changes entail.", that in those cases 72 hours review period before the patch goes live it too little? (Review for the explantion, I'm not talking about TestCenter here).
signal1941
Mon Mar 15, 2004 4:34 pm
#64

This is great news, not so much for the reversal of this change which is wonderful, but because it shows the devs do listen to the players. I was very worried the changes would go through despite the overwhwlming negative feelings towards the changes, but the developers backing off gives me hope for the future. Great news



Takro Kest
Cafa
Mon Mar 15, 2004 4:34 pm
#65

I really want to add that you need to keep being able to experiment BEYOND the resource limitation.

It was the one part of the change I thought was worth any problems. Wanna make this funner for us, explain the actual code and verify that it works for crafting stations.

Fivo Asia



- Strength In Numbers - Loyal Subjects of the Empire
Asia Brothers Industries - Asia Hall SiN CiTY, Dantooine (Offers Vendor at -4703 -1404)
A player bodyguard can't protect you either, something agroes you, you are dead. The
only difference between a pet and the person, is you pay the person to stand there
and watch you die. -- Straker Atrella

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