Development Cycle Archive
Thread: SWG Changes Part 3: GCW Occupation System
Darter
Wed Feb 09, 2005 4:52 pm
#625
thule wrote:I have said it before and i shall say it again..the people who are so opposed to PvP combat is due to the fact that as the game stands now none of the npc's (factioned or not) use any of the same special abilities as players despite their difficulty...aside from a mild damage mod (undone by armor) and more HAM (more shots) there is no difference between the imp private and the storm trooper. If the npc's of level presented an appropriate challenge (not just high resist and HAM) then it would matter less if it was a PvE or a PvP battle that sent you to the cloning chamber. If a character is able to do battle with an npc they should be a viable combatant in PvE as well.Let me remind everyone that when the CURB hits it shall provide a fix to many of the problems we currently face with combat..and thus with PvP combat. All of these things are not unrelated issues..they are all part of the same game and each fix,update and patch brings the game one step closer to bringing us all into the GCW, regardless of profession.There are a few good points made by both sides of the PvP vs. PvE disagreement and i believe it will get fixed...my biggest concern IS watching a bunch of combatants (from either side) running amok killing npc's of the opposing faction while a bunch of special forces look on helplessly...so here is my suggestion.Let special forces players (overts) have access to a strike team command..only to be used against combatants of the ouher factin who are actively engaged in battle wiht faction npc's.Reinforcements for the overts..to aid the PvE defence of bases or cities. I do feel that the Devs. are taking steps to ensure that PvP is still both viable..valuable..and entertaining as ever. With PvP bases counting for much more in the GCW the players who choose to fully support their factin will be deciding the outcome of the war. For those who don't like the idea of player called reinforcments why not? PvP'ers will be dropping the PvE bases as it is.Major Mazrath ThuleImperial armyFlight officer of the imperial inquisition.
Your assumption is that I don't play PvP because I'm not combat viable. That's not it at all. I just don't want to fight other players. I'd rather go after swarms of NPCs than take on one at a time. That's just how I'd prefer to play the game.
Spank-A-Thon
Wed Feb 09, 2005 4:54 pm
#626
DoogieHozer wrote:
Valkyrie36 wrote:
DoogieHozer wrote:
All well and good. But.
How do I win the war? Can it even be won? Or is it just a sliding teeter-totter sensitive to sniping that is utterly meaningless as an endgame mechanic?
What's the endgame?
--doogie
I would vote for teeter-totter. I have played games (WWII online) where the war was won or lost. Come back the next day and everything is reset back to the the start. I think this will be a struggle where the side can claim advantage at times. That in itself is a victory. The question of "who is winning the war" will be readily answered at all times.
And how would this be any different from the current GCW, except for more explicitly exposing the score? In fact, it can be said that on many servers, one faction or the other already dominates, effectively "winning". But, their efforts are meaningless, since there's no way to win with finality. I fail to see how lacking an endstate will not result in the same sort of apathy that already exists.
Some would assert that one is "Not supposed" to win, due to the period. So, then, why bother? In fact, it might even more interesting for the bored, hard-core PvEer or bored PvPer that one be on the -disadvantaged- side, since the threat level is higher.
In my opinion, it would have been more imaginative for the Devs to come up with a system where factions were really "meta guilds" that could be formed between participating guilds, and the score kept track of at the "meta guild" level. Therefore the participating guilds could stage their own wars and have a game mechanic keep score for them. How they managed endstate is up to the "meta guild" cooperative... one might provide several options.
Similarly, one might have "Hutt" and "Valarian" factions vying for control, alongside the "Imperial" and "Alliance" factions, all within the same "meta guild" framework. You can conceive of all sorts of cool wars one could stage if there were a little bit of cleverness applied to the design.
--doogie
Well, it will give us a means to measure our faction's performance in the GCW - something which we don't have now. If we can measure our performance, it gives our actions meaning which they previously didn't.
Unless there are key checkpoints (say at the end of each month), there cannot be any "end" to the game. The war can never be over- it can only fluctuate. I mean - what would happen if the Rebels did win the GCWwithin a SWG context? Where would the game go? What would we all do? Could the Imps fight back the next day and try to restart the GCW and win it back?
If so, then it's what we will have - but rather than the "endgame" being measured in terms of weeks, months or even years - it's measured in hours.
- Ymo
Darter
Wed Feb 09, 2005 4:54 pm
#627
Maisland wrote:I would like to point out that unless they change the way scanning works, it is possible to be detected as a member of the opposing faction even if you have NO illegal goods on you.
Straker_Atrella wrote:Carry your sliced and illegal stuff in droids then. Those don't get scanned. YOu can carry up to 50 illegal items in droids (10 each.)
Maybe instead of complaining about great changes, you should use all your available assets.
I think that's kind of the point. Imperials will be scanning for illegal goods and notice at the same time you're a Rebel. After the changes, Rebels will be scanning for illegal goods and notice you're an Imperial. I think the system is working exactly as designed.
thule
Wed Feb 09, 2005 4:56 pm
#628
Darter wrote:
thule wrote:
I have said it before and i shall say it again..the people who are so opposed to PvP combat is due to the fact that as the game stands now none of the npc's (factioned or not) use any of the same special abilities as players despite their difficulty...aside from a mild damage mod (undone by armor) and more HAM (more shots) there is no difference between the imp private and the storm trooper. If the npc's of level presented an appropriate challenge (not just high resist and HAM) then it would matter less if it was a PvE or a PvP battle that sent you to the cloning chamber. If a character is able to do battle with an npc they should be a viable combatant in PvE as well.
Let me remind everyone that when the CURB hits it shall provide a fix to many of the problems we currently face with combat..and thus with PvP combat. All of these things are not unrelated issues..they are all part of the same game and each fix,update and patch brings the game one step closer to bringing us all into the GCW, regardless of profession.
There are a few good points made by both sides of the PvP vs. PvE disagreement and i believe it will get fixed...my biggest concern IS watching a bunch of combatants (from either side) running amok killing npc's of the opposing faction while a bunch of special forces look on helplessly...so here is my suggestion.
Let special forces players (overts) have access to a strike team command..only to be used against combatants of the ouher factin who are actively engaged in battle wiht faction npc's.
Reinforcements for the overts..to aid the PvE defence of bases or cities. I do feel that the Devs. are taking steps to ensure that PvP is still both viable..valuable..and entertaining as ever. With PvP bases counting for much more in the GCW the players who choose to fully support their factin will be deciding the outcome of the war. For those who don't like the idea of player called reinforcments why not? PvP'ers will be dropping the PvE bases as it is.
Major Mazrath Thule
Imperial army
Flight officer of the imperial inquisition.
Your assumption is that I don't play PvP because I'm not combat viable. That's not it at all. I just don't want to fight other players. I'd rather go after swarms of NPCs than take on one at a time. That's just how I'd prefer to play the game.
viable in PvE combat and viable in PvP combat..as it is now..are very different things. you can't say that PvE against an horde isn't easier than a good PvP fight.
Major Mazrath Thule
DoogieHozer
Wed Feb 09, 2005 5:11 pm
#629
Spank-A-Thon wrote:Well, it will give us a means to measure our faction's performance in the GCW - something which we don't have now. If we can measure our performance, it gives our actions meaning which they previously didn't.
Unless there are key checkpoints (say at the end of each month), there cannot be any "end" to the game. The war can never be over - it can only fluctuate. I mean - what would happen if the Rebels did win the GCW within a SWG context? Where would the game go? What would we all do? Could the Imps fight back the next day and try to restart the GCW and win it back?
If so, then it's what we will have - but rather than the "endgame" being measured in terms of weeks, months or even years - it's measured in hours.
- Ymo
Like I said, how is that any different from what we have now? How can it not lead to the same sort of apathy that exists already? All I have to do -right now- is drive around and I can tell you which faction is winning... I don't -really- need a working /gcw to tell me that. Worse, checkpoints can be sniped unless you are -very- careful in the design (Cries of Alderaan, anyone?).
There already exists one Planetside. Why can't better be done?
My post contained a potential system for guildwars where, within the framework of the GCW (that we know and love) one can manage their own war. THAT is what one could do. Manage your own war, with definable goals, objectives, and a definate endstate.
--doogie
Ackew
Wed Feb 09, 2005 5:12 pm
#630
DoogieHozer wrote:
Valkyrie36 wrote:
DoogieHozer wrote:
All well and good. But.
How do I win the war? Can it even be won? Or is it just a sliding teeter-totter sensitive to sniping that is utterly meaningless as an endgame mechanic?
What's the endgame?
--doogie
I would vote for teeter-totter. I have played games (WWII online) where the war was won or lost. Come back the next day and everything is reset back to the the start. I think this will be a struggle where the side can claim advantage at times. That in itself is a victory. The question of "who is winning the war" will be readily answered at all times.
And how would this be any different from the current GCW, except for more explicitly exposing the score? In fact, it can be said that on many servers, one faction or the other already dominates, effectively "winning". But, their efforts are meaningless, since there's no way to win with finality. I fail to see how lacking an endstate will not result in the same sort of apathy that already exists.
Some would assert that one is "Not supposed" to win, due to the period. So, then, why bother? In fact, it might even more interesting for the bored, hard-core PvEer or bored PvPer that one be on the -disadvantaged- side, since the threat level is higher.
In my opinion, it would have been more imaginative for the Devs to come up with a system where factions were really "meta guilds" that could be formed between participating guilds, and the score kept track of at the "meta guild" level. Therefore the participating guilds could stage their own wars and have a game mechanic keep score for them. How they managed endstate is up to the "meta guild" cooperative... one might provide several options.
Similarly, one might have "Hutt" and "Valarian" factions vying for control, alongside the "Imperial" and "Alliance" factions, all within the same "meta guild" framework. You can conceive of all sorts of cool wars one could stage if there were a little bit of cleverness applied to the design.
--doogie
The meta guilds is a Brilliant idea, and would be something even I would want to join in. Esp If it included NON GCW factions. Like Hutt,Valarian and Nym to name a few. Why not have our faction standingsREALLY mean something instead of just if we are attacked on sigh or not. I agree with you the gcw IS comptley pointless and these changes will do NOTHING to change that.
l_StarFox_l
Wed Feb 09, 2005 6:07 pm
#631
Awesome proposals. One day I hope to be street fighting around Korvella like we used to do all the time in the old days. It'd be cool to bring in some PvP to the city take over scene rather than just clear out NPCs. Nothing comes to mind at the moment. Maybe the player base takedowns will be enough - if the NPCs are tough enough to make the street fights a proper brawl rather than a mere sweep.
Message Edited by l_StarFox_l on 02-10-2005 01:20 AM
Maisland
Wed Feb 09, 2005 6:07 pm
#632
If it's "working exactly as designed" then why are so many people saying the non-combat characters will be safe if they "don't have any illegal goods on them" in responce to the concerns for the role of factioned non-combat characters in the GCW? Or is it your stance that non-combat charcters should stay out of the GCW altogether?
Darter wrote:
I think that's kind of the point. Imperials will be scanning for illegal goods and notice at the same time you're a Rebel. After the changes, Rebels will be scanning for illegal goods and notice you're an Imperial. I think the system is working exactly as designed.
Maisland wrote:
I would like to point out that unless they change the way scanning works, it is possible to be detected as a member of the opposing faction even if you have NO illegal goods on you.
Straker_Atrella wrote:
Carry your sliced and illegal stuff in droids then. Those don't get scanned. YOu can carry up to 50 illegal items in droids (10 each.)
Maybe instead of complaining about great changes, you should use all your available assets.
Xspurn
Wed Feb 09, 2005 6:21 pm
#633
sounds interesting but all this is going to do is expose which faction has the majority of the population of any given server. Also it will create a experiance that is not in anyway related to the starwars universe by having the major cities taken over by the dominate faction of that server. In other words this is not needed and rather than focusing on stuff we don't need you should be fixing the things in the game that need it.(like the nightmare of a profession you call jedi. Also the worst system in the game know as the pvp system.)
Message Edited by Xspurn on 02-09-2005 05:23 PM
Calandryll_SOE
Wed Feb 09, 2005 6:58 pm
#634
I've posted an updated version of the TEF/GCW changes that takes into account the entire system. Feel free to post comments in that thread. Locking this thread now.
Earymi
Thu Feb 10, 2005 1:01 am
#635
OK -- I give up. What does "QFE" mean? The only meaning for QFE I've ever seen is Quick Fix Engineering, and I can't figure out how that would apply in context. And no, I'm not a net noob.
LeBob wrote:
Q.F.E.
Some would say Dark Jedi and Light Jedi should be equal in this respect. I do not understand why someone would want to play a Dark Jedi that was buddies with Darth Vader. The idea of that sickens me.
Legej
Thu Feb 10, 2005 1:17 am
#637
This is a great enhancement to the GCW and will help to bring the Star Wars into the game. It will also help to de-centralize the galaxy, seperating imps and rebels and also encouraging neutrals into other areas as well. However there are a couple things which people have already pointed out that could break thisand make things take a turn for the worse....
1) Rebel scans should not be concerend with sliced weapons or spices. They should only be concerned with finding disguised (on leave) imperials and keeping rebel held teritory secure. You already have the rebels working with Nym, a known criminal, to help their cause. Now if you were in Coronet and a Corsec trooper scaned you then I could understand them confiscating the spices or sliced weapons and fine you.
2) Jedi or anyone traveling with a jedi in their group (grouped with a Jedi and within 32meters of them) should be able to escape scans by using Jedi mind trick. Depending on the skill level of the Jedi it should be more successful when the Jedi has more skill points devoted to Jedi skills. This would also help protect Dark Jedi from Imps turning on them. I agree that Vader wants to get rid of all other Jedi but think about the scanning process... once the Imp found you were also an imp officer the scan would stop right there.
3) The biggest issue of all, PVE should not be immune to PVP. This is a MMORPG afterall, why take the MM out of the game? I can only imagine how frustrating it will be to watch a bunch of PVE imps killing rebel NPC's while I sit and watch (I'm rebel but it goes the same for both sides). I think its great that once a planet changes faction control you have to take the cities by force. But imagine another element... PC's defending their city along with the NPC's to keep it from falling while at the same time others where off putting up bases to take back control of the planet. Unfortunately that won't be possible with the PVE/PVP seperation in the current plan. You'll just have people puttig up bases everywhere with little player interaction.
4) I know that more plantes could be effected in the future but just wanted to make a point. Most planets should be effected by the GCW and transition control but there should be atleast 2 planets un-touched by imps or rebels. Lok for example has only 1 starport and is at acriminals stronghold. Doesn't seem like there would be much pressenceof either faction there. This would give neutrals or other needing to avoid imps/rebels a place to lay low.