Development Cycle Archive

geesh people, stop and think for a bit. The changes are going to be weeks away. Those changes that are coming first isn't going to fix the Jedi class, anymore than patching in ranged/melee mitigation fixed the combat classes with broken specials. Only thing they're doing with Jedi in the next publish is taking out the complete skill loss and changing it to 1 skill loss. It's really the same system, just not as harsh.

The quests and stuff aren't going to be in the next publish from how I read the post, probably won't see those until March or April.

Again, they're not fixing the Jedi class. The will still be as broke as the rest of the classes. Those of you that are whining that they're giving another class attention that you deserve, stop being so jealous. Smugglers have 3 lines that work, Droid Engineers still can produce a useful droid. Other classes might have half their specials either broken or redundant, but at least they have half that works.

Jedi have never been tested until the first people started to open their slots up. For them to make a lightsaber, they have to spend tons of credits to buy crystals. If they want to make the higher lightsabers, they have to chance using the lightsaber they are using now to make another one. A critical failure on a 4th generation lightsaber results in the loss of 4 crystals. On some servers, that could be 800k credits. Does it cost you 800k creds and the loss of your weapon if you crit fail on crafting?

I think it's great they're taking the complete skill loss out, it was a grief system. Just look at the posts that what to keep the complete skill loss in. Most of them are disappointed that they won't be able to grief the people playing Jedi. That's all. Things like "how are we suppose to kill them now" pop up in quite a few. You can still kill them with the change ya know. You just can't griefthem.

As to the 3 deaths thing, how easy do you think it is to get a skill box anyhow? From the reports I've seen, it isn't something you can just casually gain in a week. It takes alot of effort. Not to mention, people have said that jedi xp is like combat xp. How long do you think it would take you to level your character up just using combat xp?

Think you might die 3+ times before you could fill all 16 boxes up with combat xp? I think most people do. Also, what you get back after a week isn't the skill box, it's the free death. You still need to spend even more time to regain that skill box, which you might end up dying again.

Perhaps after 3 deaths, you decide to stop playing a week. Well, that's a week that you're not gaining any xp. That means that it will be even longer before you gain Master. If you were playing, then you might lose 1 box, only to gain 2. Of course, you could also gain 1 and lose 2.

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Forceismypath wrote:

I told you they were gona take perma-Death out!!

Now say your sorry for calling me a lier!

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One thing I don't care about permadeath and another you can't spell liar LOL

To: SWGSupport

Please bear with me on this. I will paste your post for reference:

Always in motion is the future: Changes to the Jedi System
I would like to start this post by saying thanks to everyone for the
long and heartfelt conversations about this hot topic over the past few
months. It is an issue that is very passionate to everyone involved. We have
been reading the boards, reading email, listening to people who spoke with
us and have had many discussions internally.

It has been agreed that the development team should revamp the Jedi
system.

This process is going to take some time, so it will happen in several
phases. The first phase is to make some changes (where possible) to
alleviate some short term discomfort with gameplay. The second phase will be
to rebuild the Jedi system to be quest-oriented; and to include the familiar
elements of Force Sensitivity, Jedi-oriented quests, as well as many other
elements the developers and the community feel should make up the process of
becoming a Jedi. (It should also be noted that players who have put in work
towards becoming a Jedi will not lose their effort. Some sort of recognition
of players' efforts will be included in the new system.)


The first phase is for short term and those changes will appear in
Publish 6. They are as follows:

a.. The permadeath system is being removed and changed to a skill
revocation system based on deaths.
b.. Deaths will decay from the death counter after one week.
c.. Deaths after a buffer (3 to 5 depending on advancement) will
have a skill revocation penalty.
d.. Skill revocation will be slight at first, but will increase in
penalty as the player accumulates more and more non-decayed deaths.
e.. The skill revocation penalty will increase as a player advances
up the skill tree.
f.. The skill to be revoked will be randomly chosen from the last
skill earned in each of the 4 skill branches.
g.. No more than one skill will be revoked at a time, though players
can get to a state where they lose a skill each time they die.
This is all of the information that is available at this time. As
additional developments occur, we will post more information.



Now this raises some real concerns for me. I was just online, and hadn't
checked the SWG board in the last two days. A friend told me as we were
discussing his need for metals. I said I use to know surveyors and artisans
who supplied my clients with the metals they need because as a Master Ranger
and Master Creature Handler I could not forge or harvest any metals and
other resource needs. I told him these people for the most part are no
longer in those professions as they do the holo chase and grind. He then
told me that "Didn't you read the SOE boards. The holos are no longer of any
good. They have changed the system." I was stunned. Then I got angry. I told
him I needed to sign off because I wasn't current in the right frame of mind
to play.

So I went to the boards and I find your latest post, which I have included.
It is very vague, but what is there is disturbing. So I thought the best
thing to do is not to jump to any conclusions. I told myself write them
about your concerns. So here is what I see and am concerned about. Please
bear with me in this post. Oh, by the way even though you never listed me as
one of your beta testers in your thanks post, I was a beta tester for three
or more months before the game went live. (Just to let you know I have been
excited for this game and your efforts).

I am a dedicated casual gamer. I very rarely only play a game for a little
bit and think I am bored and then give it up. I have loved SWG with all its
bugs and frustrations, because you have done a great job with a very
difficult universe to bring to reality online. In my opinion much harder
then making the movies or writing the books. So congratulations for all your
time and efforts by the way, you have my respect for how well you have
pulled it off so far. When months ago I learned that the holos were giving
hints of professions you need to master to open your FS slot was the way one
needed to go to unlock it. I struggled with it, because it takes a long time
for dedicated casual players to Master any professions especially Elite
professions. But I had finally gotten the character I wanted. Master Ranger,
and Master CH. The holo system would mean month and months of playing
professions I really wasn't interested in, or at least I didn't think I
would be. So I started the kill FS NPC or other similar NPC system to
hopefully get at least four holos. After killing tons of FS NPCs I never
ever got one holo. But it was the system so I was determined to get that FS
slot open. So I continue on.

Then came the wonderful and thankfully great Holoday gifts. Wow, I had not
been able to get even one after months of trying and now I got two for being
a dedicated member. I jumped up and down! My entire family plays SWG so in
this household we own four games and run them on four different computers.
My youngest daughter is more of a casual gamer than any of the rest of us so
she gave me her holo. Suddenly I had three holos. Wow my prayers were being
answered!!!! Great!!!. So I used my first one, and a voice from the force
said, "Master Bounty Hunter!" I said OK, I never really would have tried
this but it is the system so lets go after it.

Both before and after the great HOLODAY I have defended the devs in making
this holo grind the system of opening up the legendary FS slot. I agreed
with people that yes I would not have chosen to do have the system for
opening the FS slot be this way, but I didn't design the system and this is
the way it is. So let's not get ticked off about it, at least they finally
have given us a hint on how to go about, and with the help that all the
Power Gamers are giving on the boards of how to "grind your system to max
out as soon as possible" hints and suggestions was very helpful. Without the
holos and these very generous PowerGamers I probably would have never
thought I had a chance to unlock that highly coveted FS slot. I said, hay
look on the bright side we are experiencing professions that we probably
would never have done and I have found it helps me to understand the game
better and to even enjoy the why some people love these other professions.
So hay let's go with it and try to find enjoyable aspects and learn more
about this great game they have developed. I did this repeatedly on the
boards.

So here I am a little over half way through BH, and that has taken some
doing, as there doesn't seem to be any "easy grinding system" to achieve
Master BH. So I have given up almost all my Master Ranger skills except
those that would help me as a BH, and have started giving up several of my
Master CH skills as well to be able to continue my quest of unlocking that
highly coveted FS slot. Then I hear about this post. My heart dropped! Oh
no!

So I go to the boards and I congratulate you on listening to all the those,
and myself included, who didn't think this should have been the route to go.
Most of this post seems to deal with being a FS characters, what I mean is
players who are already FS. Again may I congratulate you on truly listening
to their frustration and concerns dealing with the Jedi system itself!!!

But the part that is really upsetting is, "The second phase will be to
rebuild the Jedi system to be quest-oriented; and include the familiar
elements the developers and the community feel should make up the process of
becoming a Jedi." Ok, now that I have finally gotten three holos and used my
first and am told to Master Bounty Hunter, am I dead in the water? Should I
be putting more time into completing this profession when I really already
had what I wanted my main character to be? Then it seems to imply the holos
are now worthless. This is frustrating, but not so much for me as it is for
many other players. Some because they were not in the fighting professions
or even a Ranger or Creature Handler, which to me isn't a fighting
profession, were forced to rely on friends generosity or buying holos for
outrageous prices just to seek to open their FS slot. Now they can't even
sell them or use them to help them in the process.

Now to be fair there seems to be some hints that the above paragraph is not
completely true. The following were also in your post. "The first phase is
to make some changes (where possible) to alleviate some short term
discomfort with gameplay." [That is just to foggy of a statement to know
what you are really get at.] But it might mean to ease transition for those
still in the holo hunt for the professions they were told to master, but it
might not also! The second is the following statement, "It should also be
noted that players who have put in work towards becoming a Jedi will not
lose their effort." Hay, now that sounds positive, but once again it is to
general to be sure what that means for us still hunting to unlock that FS
slot. But it does not say whether we should continue on as before until the
transition is finally finished or if we should stop right now at this point,
and go back and re-achieve what we had already mastered. Please clarify this
very soon!

I also don't see why holos will be useless anymore. Why can't they be used
to give hints to people while they are on the quest oriented system. Hints
that might come in handy when you get stuck and are just not sure what to do
next. This way those who have earned, bought or even have been given their
holos are not feeling cheated. If they are still valuable, then I as one
will use them in my hunt to unlock my FS slot, but those who don't need them
can, like others did in the past, sell them (hopefully not at the ridiculous
cost as before).

Please respond to this email soon! And may I suggest that you post on the
Jedi forum as well things that will truly clarify where everything stands at
the moment and in the foreseeable future.

Again Devs. thank you so very much for all your efforts and what I feel is a
great game no matter what some people have thought.

Jolandir

After further review I am beginning to think that Q's whole post had nothing to do with us hologrinders. Maybe I'm wrong but it seems that if you make the assumption that everything he is saying happens AFTER you open your force-slot then order is restored to an extent.

The only fly in the ointment is Thunderheart's comment about holocrons not existing in the new system.

An attempt to draw order from chaos.

For all you people saying not to take out permadeath here is the problem.

As it stands for jedi now. You will never engage in PvP. Your only job is to kill mobs for XP and nothing more. Here is the grandiose ultimate roleplaying experiance and its nothing more then an uber mob killer. With permadeath this is happening.

Here is the solution. Make the path to the FSCS uber hard and the life of a jedi the same as everyone else. Now however the path to the jedi is uber easy and the life of a jedi is near to impossible.

By having permadeath they are diffusing a bomb that has already gone off. "Lets limit the number of jedi by making them hard to play AFTER the jedi is in game." There are already tons of jedi in the game right now. I have 5 friends that have unlocked their slots. That doesnt make sense. Why put the difficulty and balance on someone AFTER they got the slot?

And from what I read in the notice they are making the change from uber easy to open your slot to uber hard and the life from near impossible to only a little tough.

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cnlfailure wrote:

Does nobody on the dev team think more than 6 months in advance?

As I have heard quoted in the past "the community do not know what they want". The only thing at present preventing Jedi from cropping up all over the galaxy is the fact that it is HARD and DANGEROUS to train in it. By reducing the risk, you are effectively opening it up to a massive increase in speed and as has been stated already, there'll be Jedi everywhere far quicker than you anticipate.

To draw a parallel in UO, which I know plenty of the devs have a lot of experience of, the economy was kept reasonably healthy for years while PKs stalked dungeons "taxing" those adventurers using them to make a quick buck. The upshot was that you didn't go dungeoning unless you accepted that extra risk. When Renaissance arrived and removed the PK danger the economy went into hyper-inflation almost overnight. A placed house (which I use here as the yardstick)that in the 2 years previous would have cost you 100k rose to a million in the space of 6 months, all because this control on the economy is removed.

To take that analogy into SWG you are creating a situation whereby MasterJedi is no longer an almost unattainable goal, and in doing so you will badly hurt the game.

You are doing this to prevent a short-term loss of players (most likely the kind of player with a short-term attention span) but in doing so you are wrecking the world for those who are here for the atmosphere.

Also consider the damage in balance that will be done to the GCW. Introducing heavily skilled Jedi into the mix will make the non-Jedi PVP fans horrendously outclassed.

In short, you have already disregarded the Star Wars timeline by allowing people to become Jedi. You have already set up a system whereby the short-term gamers (aka powergamers) will become Jedi first. You have already then revised that system so that everyone is encouraged to power game (free holocrons). You are now in danger of flooding the galaxy with high powered Jedi.

To those who always wanted to be a Jedi, I ask you this: was your dream to become one of a thousand identical super-Jedi, or did you yearn to be one of a few mythical elite?

"The community do not know what they want".

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I really hope Raph Koster / Holocronreads what cnlfailure wrote.

He ran Ultima Online.

Here's part of an interview I found with Raph a month after the game came out that's on UGO: UnderGroundOnline:

______________________________________

http://www.ugo.com/channels/games/features/starwars_galaxies/raphkoster.asp

UGO: Is there anything that you can do to inhibit your ability to unlock a Force sensitive slot?

RK: Uh, right now, no.

UGO: So if I go ahead and kill a ton of innocent Jawas, I still have a chance to unlock my Force sensitive slot?

RK: We have talked a lot about it. We talked a lot about, hey, you murder innocent Ewoks, you shouldn't become a Jedi. The problem is, since you don't tell people how close you are, you might be playing for three years and saying "How come I've never unlocked my Jedi slot?" and not know, "Well, you shoulnd't have killed those Ewoks two and a half years ago." So because of that, we didn't do that.

Yeah, the Jedi slot, we liken it to Hardcore Diablo. That's really what it's like. It's the ultimate challenge. One of the things I like to say is that Star Wars is fundamentally trying to be a roleplaying game, like in the original sense. Not a CRPG, but actually a game where you take on a role and you live it out. That's what the whole point is. Well, Jedi are a blatent exception to that [laughs]. They're specifically there as a really difficult pain in the ass challenge. A "Can you cut it or not?" kind of thing. And that's why we have that perma-death thing in there [alluding to the fact that when Jedi characters die, they can not be resurrected]. Even if you manage to unlock the slot, then getting to Master Jedi, we expect you to die many, many times, so don't get too attached.

_________________________________________

Here's part of another interview with him.

http://swg.stratics.com/content/dev/interviews/rkoster012203.shtml

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STRATICS: What is the biggest lesson you learned from your experiences working on Ultima Online?

RAPH KOSTER: I don’t think I can pick just one. Well, maybe. “Listen to players more.” I think that on UO I did a lot of talking over things that players were saying, explaining to them why they were wrong about things. Mind you, they WERE wrong about a lot of things. But so was I. It’s all too easy to get caught up in the ivory tower of running one of these things and lose all perspective.

STRATICS: How do you deal with players or testers who constantly demand one thing, yet it goes against what you want in a game?

RAPH KOSTER: Me personally? I try to listen, and listen more. If I agree with it, I try to get the change made, even if it means giving up a cherished aspect of the game. The customer isn’t always right in terms of game design, but they are likely right in terms of their enjoyment.

But you need to be sure you’re actually listening to the right thing. Frankly, good hard data from the server database is worth a billion passionate board posts.

Also, there is the fact that sometimes players are just, well, wrong. For example, it’s easy to see right now the effect of listening a bit too much on issues like reducing downtime, increasing player convenience, reducing player interdependence, etc. The result has been a rash of games where sure, soloing is effective, but most of the social glue between players has been removed as well. It’s a case of throwing the baby out with the bathwater, because some of those things that players dislike are there fore very good reasons.

_________________________________________

I hope the devs think long and hard about scrapping permadeath.

They need to make sure they are not throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I even used that same expression earlier in this thread before reading this interview.

Yes, being the idea of scrapping the way of becoming a Jedi is a great idea. The current system is not fun.

I don't know from personal experience, since I have refused to look at a holo until I've finished mastering all the professions I'm interested in. And there are a lot of them. I was going to take my time, spending nearly a month in each profession. I figured I'd become a Jedi in 6 months to a year. Like I said, I'd just do the professions I'm intersted in first. That would exclude Dancer. That's pretty much the only profession I have no interest in. Heck, I'm even interested in Politician. But just grinding out professions as fast as I could was not on my agenda. I have four unused holocrons in my living room. I have not looked at one.

For over a year I looked forward to playing this game to become a Bounty Hunter. Being a Jedi is not something I even considered really until that's all anyone else ever talked about.

When I finally became a Master Bounty Hunter after working on it steadily for 4 months, I was elated.

Even though I started playing on launch day, it took me until late December to get to master. That's because I built up another character on my other account. It was the other account that would eventually become a Jedi, since I have no plans to ever give up being a Bounty Hunter with this one. But doing any sort of grinding after making MBH was not something I wanted to do, so I've pretty much taken a month off of that and am about ready to start again.

Without the current system of unlocking the slot, I will still try out different professions. That's something I can't do with my Bounty Hunter. So I will still have a reason to keep my second account, but with the profession thing dropped, I'll probably go for Jedi with this one.

The quests seem like a terrific idea. Hopefully they will be extremely difficult, and I hope they aren't difficult due to bugs, but because of challenging content.

I hope they will be mysterious. I hope the Wizard can come back and we won't be able to see the man behind the curtain that we saw with the release of holocrons. I hope they are dynamic. Not the same for each player, and that they spawn in different locations and are not absolutely predictable.

Yes, the devs should make BEING a Jedi more fun. But it should still be HARD.

I was looking forward to the challenge of trying to stay alive.

Perhaps permadeath might be too harsh.

But only having to stay alive 2-4 days a week with the new system is too easy.

Make beinga Jedi the most difficult thing in this game bar none.

Keepit so anybody can become one, but few would want to stay one.

But being a Jedi should be FUN and enjoyable enough for people to keep trying if they wish.