Development Cycle Archive

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Thunderheart wrote:

The 3 second delay during combat was put in because of the armor and weapon equipping macros. Some of the problems associated with "instant armor" areinstances like theJedi "armor macro" wherebya Jedi could press a single toolbar button that would unequip all of their armor instantly, allow the to then use their force powers and then press that button again and re-equip all of their armor instantly. There are other situations in the game where players were getting unfair heals and weapon advantages because of this.

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TH,

I STRENOUSLY disagree that there are ANY battle advantages to armor switching macros, and I think the devs REALLY screwed the pooch on this one...

First, let's talk about jedi. Jedi armor switching is a moot issue. There is NO reason WHATSOEVER, to nerf 33 classes just because it is unbalancing for one, single class (jedi) to macro switcharmor.

This is especially trus considering that at least three different devs (including you) have stated that the new jedi robes are intended to "replace" conventional armor for Jedi. If allowing jedit to have conventional armor is THAT unbalancing....do the obvious thing and take it away. There is no reason to burden 33 classes with an armor delay, when the problem could be easily fixed by preventing jedi from wearing conventional armor that you have already "replaced."

Second, let's look at combat advantages. *looks around, and finds none*

As an initial matter, consider the following... When a person takes their armor off they are reducing their encumberance penalty. HOWEVER, they are also taking over 50% more damage. Even the worst armor in the game (bone) has light armor attributes, thereby reducing armor by 50%. I will stick with this number, because I don't know what armor values will be after the combat balance.

Now, There are only 3 possible "advantages" a person could get from an armor switching macro:

(1) Reduced specials costs: You cannot kill any mob worth killing in one hit. You shoot repeatedly, taking between 1 and 5 seconds or so between shots.

Here's the kicker...Specials costs hurt NOT because of one single shot, BUT because they quickly build up after MULTIPLE shots. Singly, specials costs are minimal, they only have an effect after several shots.

For you to get any benefit from encumberance penalty avoidance, you will need to have your armor off EVERY time you shoot to prevent build-up. BUT, when you have your armor off, you are taking 50%+ more damage every time you shoot.

In this circumstance, the constant need to remove your armor for every single shot, paired with the 50%+ more damage you are taking totally negates any benefit you are getting.

The devs are totally wrong on this one, and the delay does nothing.

(2) Reduced Healing Costs: This only has a real combat effect with self healing. Most players can only heal from 200 to 400 points at a time.

Healing goes into the combat queue, so it is really hard to time when the heal is actually going to happen. This means that you HAVE to take armor off a couple of seconds before you heal, and then you have to wait a couple of seconds for the heal to actually take place.

Over that 3-5 second process, you are getting hit for 50%+ more damage the WHOLE time.

For any battle in which your HAM bar is actually getting depleted enough to need healing, you are fighting something that is hitting you for at least25 to50damage per second with armor on. That is a range of75 to250 damage over the 3-5 seconds you have to have your armor off to get the healing benefit. HOWEVER, you take double damage with armor off so you are ACTUALLY taking 150 to 500 damage over the period you have your armor off (about the same as the healed advantage) in addition to having your mind reduced for the heal.

The devs are totally wrong on this one, and the delay does nothing.

(3) Increased regeneration: When you take your armor off, you regenerate faster. HOWEVER, regeneration (even at uber buffed levels) is slow. There is no way that the regeneration you get from removing armor can outweigh the 50%+ more damage you are taking, and you have to have your armor off for an extended period of time for it to work.
The devs are totally wrong on this one, and the delay does nothing.

As a final point, it is important to realize that over 50% of the encumberance penalties associated with armor come from the (1) helmet, (2) chestpiece, and (3) pants.Over 50% of the time that a mob or player hits you, they are hitting you in the (say it with me) (1) helmet, (2) chestpiece, and (3) pants.

According to you, the delay is 3 seconds. 0 seconds for Helmet + 3 seconds for chest + 3 seconds for pants = 6 total seconds to get those pieces equipped.

For most purposes, the REAL delay to get a combat "benefit" as you describe it is SIX SECONDS.

What does this mean?

That means that the developers are annoying the hell out of 99% of the player base over "unbalance" that is cause by:

(1) The 1% of Players that are Jedi

(2) An unfounded myth that armor macro switching during battle gives you any real benefit.

AND most importantly

(3) A change that really only equates to a 6 second delay.

Outside of battle, I NEVER takemy armoroff during battle because it is SILLY to do so. Any player who has any idea how to play the game KNOWS it is a bad idea to take armor off during battle.

In fact, the boards have been filled with people saying "yeah, the delay isn't a big deal, because I NEVER TAKE MY ARMOR OFF DURING BATTLE."

The question becomes: Why are you nerfing players with a delay that only wastes their time equipping armor OUTSIDE OF BATTLE, where armor doesn't matter anyway?

Whyare burdening every player in the game with yet one more game disturbing delay that does NOTHING?

Why are devs being so clueless about this, and why can't they see that the solution is 10 times more annoying and game-breaking than the alleged "problem" itself?

Why?

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Grycks wrote:

Like just about everyone else, my initial impression with the delay was shock followed by anger. But the more I think about it the more I realized it makes the game far more realistic. I'll simply have to adjust my strategy as I've done time and time again with the various "fixes" that have come along. If it allows me to stay alive longer than 10 seconds in a PVP fight, then I might just give it a thumbs up

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More realistic compared to the SWG universe or real life? Quickdraw has always been apart of this genre and any other genre where the hero/villian whipped out his gun real quick or flicked a quick knife from his sleeve. I can think of several movies off the top of my head where somebody dropped a pistol to pull a shotgun from over their shoulder. It didn't take 3 seconds either.

It took the dead guy 3 seconds.

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Thunderheart wrote:

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Camrux wrote:

TH,

Hasn't the Jedi aspect of the "instant armor" been rendered moot? My understanding is that Jedi are now unable to wear armor or would their robes be considered armor. I realize that there may be other issues that you are looking at as well like swapping DOT weapons and stacking them. Could there be a more effective solution here such as applying a DOT timer instead of an equip timer?

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No, Jedi can wear armor - - they just can't wear armor and use Force powers. And fwiw, its not *just* because of Jedi...there were other instances as well. That was just the best example.

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So TH what is the point of Jedi being allowed to wear armor but not use any specials while in it? We may as well not even be allowed to wear it. The other question is where is the resists in the robes that were promised? We were told robes would have the same resists as post combat balance composite. Currently robes do not have any resists. JustG mentioned Jedi have innate defences, well so do TKA, Fencer and quite a few other classes but they are allowed to wear armor. This is a severe penalty on Jedi. Especially considering the new flavour of the month professions for killing Jedi are going to be BH/TKA.

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Thunderheart wrote:

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Camrux wrote:

TH,

Hasn't the Jedi aspect of the "instant armor" been rendered moot? My understanding is that Jedi are now unable to wear armor or would their robes be considered armor. I realize that there may be other issues that you are looking at as well like swapping DOT weapons and stacking them. Could there be a more effective solution here such as applying a DOT timer instead of an equip timer?

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No, Jedi can wear armor - - they just can't wear armor and use Force powers. And fwiw, its not *just* because of Jedi...there were other instances as well. That was just the best example.

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Give us the example that pertains to the rest of us non jedi or stop saying there was an issue.

Fact is, you did this because of ONE profession, NO ONE, NO ONE, ever complained about it, why did you guys change it? What people told you this was a problem? I bet it was the same little kids that said waiting 10 minutes for a shuttle was immersion.

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Southwick wrote:

I think exists in only one real area.

Here it goes. The idea in the minds of most is that sticking to one weapon is more effective. It allows you to be more effective..so forth and so on. For most professions this is in no way a big deal and shouldnt hurt them.

BH are the only profession fully affected by this, as the tree is designed around versatility.

Carbines state, Pistols = pool specific, and bleeds, LLC heavy close range damage, pve.

Most weapon specific classes have a form of this tied into their one weapon type. IE Carbine state + heavy pool specific attacks.. Teras kasi state, bleeds, pool specific attacks .. etc. etc.

A normal BH open would be CONFUSION/SPRAY.. KD.. BLEED.. BURN.. then work from there. Many times a good kd to llc single 2 switch could be a great finishing move. This in many ways nullifies that versatility.I think its one of those things thats just going to be around till the great CB.

So Gricks this wont change combat for most as I see it. Maybe slow the CM Riflemen now.

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He already said it wasn't put in to screw the BH even though they got hit hardest.

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Thunderheart wrote:

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Camrux wrote:

TH,

Hasn't the Jedi aspect of the "instant armor" been rendered moot? My understanding is that Jedi are now unable to wear armor or would their robes be considered armor. I realize that there may be other issues that you are looking at as well like swapping DOT weapons and stacking them. Could there be a more effective solution here such as applying a DOT timer instead of an equip timer?

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No, Jedi can wear armor - - they just can't wear armor and use Force powers. And fwiw, its not *just* because of Jedi...there were other instances as well. That was just the best example.

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I understand it wasn't just because of Jedi, and I stated that in my post. It just seems like a case of using a bulldozer when a small shovel was needed. Thisone change has had such a sweeping effect over howoverall combat works for all players, not just the Jedi.

And if this was an issue that needed to be looked at, why a big change now with the combat rebalance around the corner? Wouldn't it have been more prudent to wait until then?

Edit - for spelling

Message Edited by Camrux on 06-30-2004 03:37 PM

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Thunderheart wrote:

No, Jedi can wear armor - - they just can't wear armor and use Force powers. And fwiw, its not *just* because of Jedi...there were other instances as well. That was just the best example.

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The 3 second delay during combat was put in because of the armor and weapon equipping macros. Some of the problems associated with "instant armor" areinstances like theJedi "armor macro" wherebya Jedi could press a single toolbar button that would unequip all of their armor instantly, allow the to then use their force powers and then press that button again and re-equip all of their armor instantly. There are other situations in the game where players were getting unfair heals and weapon advantages because of this.

Bounty Hunters have a particular pain with this because it hamstrings some of their most effective combos. There are other examples of this as well, but the change was necessary. The other aspect to this is that players were using these macros to compenasate for certain combat shortfalls. The right answer for the game is to address those things in the combat balance.

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TH, i understand about the armor....but can we get rid of the weapon delay? This delay has many faults and should be lifted for ALL profession. For instance, players that have a master ranged profession and a master melee profession want to be able to switch inbetween with no delay. Everyone knows of the to-hit bonus when holding a ranged weapon and giving a melee player three seconds of this bonus is a little unfair considering i also have a master melee profession. Professions such as Bounty Hunter, where the very skills developed by the devs require weapon switching,find thisdelayto bedevasting.

I can understand about the armor, but the weapon delay needs to be changed. It seems that the examples we are given cover the problem with armor, but what is the problem with weapons? Why not just keep the armor delay but get rid of the weapon delay?

woolie

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Thunderheart wrote:

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Georb79 wrote:

Everytime I load up it still full scans. Should I be waiting for a fix?

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In your StarWarsGalaxies directory, you will find a file that says, "TREFix.exe". Double click and run that file and then you should be ok after that...

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Tried this, didn't work - I still full scan every time i open the launchpad (just like the original poster).

EDIT: Found this info in the Tech Support forum from TSR-Chad:

1. 
   
   First, make sure Launchpad & the game client are not running.
   
   
2. 
   
   Remove the "updatestatus.xml" & "updateConfig.xml" files located inthe SWG subdirectory of LaunchPad install directory. (by default, this is c:\program files\sony\station\launchpad\).
   
   
3. 
   
   Remove all the files named "PatchCache.xml" in your StarWarsGalaxies install folder(s) and all of its subdirectories. This files are generally "hidden", so turn off that option in your windows explorer while doing so if you can't find them.
   
   
4. 
   
   Run the SWG LaunchPad and login. It should do a full scan. Let it complete.
   
   
5. 
   
   Exit the LaunchPad without Playing.
   
   
6. 
   
   Re-run the SWG LaunchPad & login. It should do a normal "standard" scan (a few moments).
   
   
7. 
   
   If this doesn't work, repeat the preceding steps but disable any resident virus scanning/protection software

This worked for me.

Message Edited by GotEgg on 06-30-2004 03:51 PM