Development Cycle Archive
Thread: Roundtable Discussion: GCW and TEFs
Dorak
Fri Sep 03, 2004 4:45 pm
#547
My 2¢
Well I gotta say it sucks when your covert and you run though an area that has a scanner and you get downed like a fly. Happened to me once not to fun, but not a bad thing it holds true to the story line. The GTEF thing is a bummer too when it happens but hey it makes sense in every aspect. I was grouped last night with an overt (I was covert) we came across and opposing over and group of people and my pal was attacked. I thought it only fair I should help him and in doing so I got teffed and was able to shoot at the attacker in RL I'd have done the same (well if we lived in that kind of environment). The bummer for us was he had more covert friends than we did and we lost (we did take him down before cloning). But that's how it works those with larger numbers win battles (most of the time). While neither of the events was fun in the end, it was fun during and I'm totally cool with it.
What I didn't like was the first time I did a faction mission and got teffed I didn't even realize it and then when I headed back to town I was caught off guard and taken down by an overt. I pay more attention to that teff indicator now but what I think sucks is you don't know how long your teff will last. Is there any way to tell or could we update the mouse over tool tip to tell you how long you are teffed for.
Dorak
Well I gotta say it sucks when your covert and you run though an area that has a scanner and you get downed like a fly. Happened to me once not to fun, but not a bad thing it holds true to the story line. The GTEF thing is a bummer too when it happens but hey it makes sense in every aspect. I was grouped last night with an overt (I was covert) we came across and opposing over and group of people and my pal was attacked. I thought it only fair I should help him and in doing so I got teffed and was able to shoot at the attacker in RL I'd have done the same (well if we lived in that kind of environment). The bummer for us was he had more covert friends than we did and we lost (we did take him down before cloning). But that's how it works those with larger numbers win battles (most of the time). While neither of the events was fun in the end, it was fun during and I'm totally cool with it.
What I didn't like was the first time I did a faction mission and got teffed I didn't even realize it and then when I headed back to town I was caught off guard and taken down by an overt. I pay more attention to that teff indicator now but what I think sucks is you don't know how long your teff will last. Is there any way to tell or could we update the mouse over tool tip to tell you how long you are teffed for.
Dorak
Bounty-1
Sat Sep 04, 2004 4:47 am
#548
Here’s an idea to improve the GTEF situation.
Some people say it should be all or nothing either declare or don’t PvP.I don’t see this as a solution.The solution I see is this, declared factional players work the same as they currently do.In terms of being a covert member of a faction engaging in factional battle a level of visibility is gained for actions taken against the opposing faction.Let’s say this rating is from 1 to 1,000.At 1 a player is an unknown in terms of the GCW and unknown to members of the opposite faction.At 1,000 a player is well known as a threat to the opposite faction.The idea is the closer a person gets to the 1,000 mark the more likely they are to be attackable by their enemy faction.A nice bonus is this adds a way to have non-Jedi player bounties added to the game.
In terms of game play player engaging in factional warfare 4 hours a day for a week will be at or near the 1000 point mark.While a player is at the 1000 point level they are 100% known to the enemy and easily detected by the opposing faction.If the player does not engage in any factional conflict for two to three weeks (not even killing npc rebels or imperials) the visibility rating decays to 1 for a 0.1% chance they can be detected by the enemy.In order for this to work factioned players get an ability to scan the area for enemy players.Let’s call this ability detect enemy.By typing /detectenemy you are able to scan the area for potential threats.This ability will have a success rate based on faction rank.At private there is a 1% chance for it to work and at colonel 100%.This doesn’t mean a colonel will detect 100% of enemies.A colonel has a chance to detect enemies based on the opposing players visibility rank. If the player’s visibility stands at 500/1000 a colonel has a 50% chance to detect that player.
Chessack
Sat Sep 04, 2004 12:04 pm
#549
Here is my opinion on this:
This is not a full suite of the possible situations players might like to be in. The full suite is:
PVP-always
PVP-somtimes
PVP-never
Right now there is NO chance to do PVP-never and partake of the GCW. I would love my character to be a rebel, but I can't guarantee that I wouldn't have to fight other players, and I just don't want to fight other players. Players in PVP frequently cheat, exploit, use uber-templates, etc.
My character is a master dancer/master entertainer and slowly working pistol. Because most of her skills are absorbed in noncombat professions she cannot possibly stand up to the punishment of PVP. But she is perfectly fine in PVE (as she proves time and time again hunting animals or fighting neutral NPCs).
I don't understand why there can't be a 100% PVE-only version of the GCW. Why FORCE players to partake of PVP in order to partake of the GCW? The "realism" argument (i.e. if an imperial player came by and saw me taking out an imperial base he would assist them) just doesn't wash with me. Who cares? Lots of things are unrealistic in this game (cloning and keeping your possessions and memories, anyone?). We accept them for the sake of playability.
As a partial compromise I suggest having it be that once you EVER turn your PVP switch on, ever, either for PVP-sometimes or PVP-always, you can never go back to the PVP-never version of the GCW. This would prevent people from going into PVP mode just to grief each other. (Incidentally it is the griefers that make me not want to PVP under any conditions except playful duels with my own guild mates, who are the only other players I trust not to grief me.) I would happily accept "you may never PVP" if I could have a nice PVE setting in which I could enjoy the story and roleplay parts of being a rebel.
That you don't have such an option is to the lasting discredit of this game and has forced me to basically stay neutral for a year with a character who should have been rebel all along.
C
Thunderheart wrote:One of the ongoing community discussions is the GCW, PvP and the issue of TEF's. TEF's exist because we have a mix of playstyles with a PvP switch. Overts are PvP all the time and Covert's are PvP sometimes. 07-12-2004 06:15 PM
This is not a full suite of the possible situations players might like to be in. The full suite is:
PVP-always
PVP-somtimes
PVP-never
Right now there is NO chance to do PVP-never and partake of the GCW. I would love my character to be a rebel, but I can't guarantee that I wouldn't have to fight other players, and I just don't want to fight other players. Players in PVP frequently cheat, exploit, use uber-templates, etc.
My character is a master dancer/master entertainer and slowly working pistol. Because most of her skills are absorbed in noncombat professions she cannot possibly stand up to the punishment of PVP. But she is perfectly fine in PVE (as she proves time and time again hunting animals or fighting neutral NPCs).
I don't understand why there can't be a 100% PVE-only version of the GCW. Why FORCE players to partake of PVP in order to partake of the GCW? The "realism" argument (i.e. if an imperial player came by and saw me taking out an imperial base he would assist them) just doesn't wash with me. Who cares? Lots of things are unrealistic in this game (cloning and keeping your possessions and memories, anyone?). We accept them for the sake of playability.
As a partial compromise I suggest having it be that once you EVER turn your PVP switch on, ever, either for PVP-sometimes or PVP-always, you can never go back to the PVP-never version of the GCW. This would prevent people from going into PVP mode just to grief each other. (Incidentally it is the griefers that make me not want to PVP under any conditions except playful duels with my own guild mates, who are the only other players I trust not to grief me.) I would happily accept "you may never PVP" if I could have a nice PVE setting in which I could enjoy the story and roleplay parts of being a rebel.
That you don't have such an option is to the lasting discredit of this game and has forced me to basically stay neutral for a year with a character who should have been rebel all along.
C
Masen
Sun Sep 05, 2004 1:11 am
#550
TEFs-
1) Attacking a NPC camp or random spawn of the opposing faction.
2) Healing, buffing an overt or TEFed member of the same faction.
3) Trading with an overt or TEFed member of the same faction.
4) Being detected by a Covert scanner or turret of opposing faction.
5) Detonating a mine in an opposing faction's minefield.
6) Being grouped with someone who gains a TEF, or an overt who is attacked by an overt.
Problems I see it, is that too many ways exist to pull people who don't want to PVP into it, what ever happened to playing the game how you like, as you like? Umm..Seems you all changed your mind.
Similarly, too many loopholes exist for griefing, and with the duration of TEFs, did you forget that some people only have short time periods to play?
A few thoughts, and suggestions.
1) NO MORE GROUP TEF. The only one who likes these, are the ones who use them to gank lone overts, often in what is supposed to be a one on one duel. I've seen legit uses for it as well, but the griefing uses of it are huge. (G-TEF seems to stand for Greif TEF)
2) No more healing Overts when covert. If you want yto PVP, go declare. If you want to stay out of it, then don't declare. Total seperation. Either that, or a popup with a click button (you will gain a TEF if you do this, are you sure? OK, No)
3) Reduce time to go covert to 5 minutes. not an hour. This is actually the sole reason I don't bother with my stormtrooper armor and imperial gear, it's too big a hassle. Want to see more stormtroopers? Get the casual pvpers and such into wearing it, they tend to worry less about if a suit is uber, and are more into the cool aspect. If I could go overt, do some casual pvp, or even pve missions, in imperial gear, and then go covert in a reasonable time frame after getting home, and work on crafting, I would. an hour is NOT reasonable, I mean come on..Most people resort to allowing themselves to be killed, just to go covert.
4)Allow faction gear to be equipped if covert, but you gain a TEF while wearing it, essentially an on/off covert switch, but you cannot use it to get first strike. Basically just if you want to go do missions in Imperial gear, though it still carries some element of risk.
5)Minefields should be limited to Overts only UNLESS they have a detector or turret directly adjacent. Either that, or make minefields indiscriminate, as they should be. Anyone enters, boom.
Some other thoughts about PVP, and the GCW.
1) make Overt a toggle. Even if killed, you remain Overt. Want to go covert, see the recruiter. Of course, be sure and make the timer 5-10 minutes if you do this, a mandatory 1 hour wait, is too much.
2) Make conceal shot work, if you're concealed, you vanish from radar until spotted, even if overt. (yes I know this could be a grief tool, but hey..they ARE snipers)
3) Here's an idea...How about just use the space GCW system? Covert, can't attack or be attacked by any PC. Overt, open game to any other overt. and faction gear gives you a TEF as long as it's on? Sounds simple enough to me, and alot less confusing than this convoluted design you've got now.
Chessack
Sun Sep 05, 2004 2:38 pm
#551
Masen wrote:TEFs-Here's an idea...How about just use the space GCW system? Covert, can't attack or be attacked by any PC. Overt, open game to any other overt. and faction gear gives you a TEF as long as it's on? Sounds simple enough to me, and alot less confusing than this convoluted design you've got now.
I'm all for this one. I would love to partake of the GCW vs. NPCs, but I do not want to deal with the Player-Griefers I have seen running around too much.
C
CaffineWarrior
Wed Sep 08, 2004 2:11 am
#552
I have to agree with Dorak... IF and IF you choose a faction, you are opening up your world to one of possible pain. Which, in itself, is very similar to that of the real world. If you hang with trouble-makers, you are going to get in trouble. Now, along those lines, how realistic would it be to say that 15 COVERT members of a group would remain COVERT if they were with, even1, OVERT member? If the other side was aware this one overt member existed... wouldnt it be safe to say the others would be AUTOMATICALLY identified as with them, and be overted as well?
I think a simple solution to this would be to say, again as many have, prohibit grouping of COVERT / OVERT, or make anyone grouped with an OVERT, automatically overt as well. I mean it is the only common sense thing to do, its not realistic to say that you would be able to remain covert, in a group with someone known to the other side.
CaffineWarrior
Wed Sep 08, 2004 2:15 am
#553
One more thing... what is the garbage about COVERT not being able to attack OVERT? Think about it... if you are opposite faction... you SHOULD be able to pounce on someone known to be an enemy... BUT that would then make you KNOWN to the enemy and then OVERT as well... this would, IMO balance the power in the game quite nicely... and make ppl choose more carefully before going OVERT 
Piroa
Wed Sep 08, 2004 8:39 am
#554
Covertplayers should definitely be able to attack overt players. If a covert reb can attack a stormtrooper, why not an overt player?
Neutral players should be able to heal overt or TEFed players w/o becoming TEFed. Hippocratic Oath! Covert should become overt, only if the overt player is in combat.
Coverts grouping with an overt should not, automatically, TEF them or make them overt. If an Overt group member engages in combat with a member of the opposite faction, that would make all covert members overt and TEF all neutral players.
Piroa
Pistoleer/Ranger
Heroes of Aliance
Aliance City, Dantooine
Eclipse
SidGi3
Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:46 am
#555
Ok I posted this on theIn concept open discussion thread also.I think we need groundbased faction specific professions. JTL will introduce faction pilots so why not have AT-AT's, AT-ST's, and AT-PT's( if you should ever add them) mountable and have pilot professions for those.Have Darktrooper , Scouttrooper and Stormtrooper Professions. For the Rebels you could have some kind of ground based pilot profession i.e Snowspeeder/Airspeeder pilot, Assault mech pilot, and Strike mech pilot. ANd a couple of rebel trooper professions. Also make all faction professions overt. Have faction mechanics/ engineers to repair and modify equipment. In addition since the rebels fight more of a guerrilla type warfare and have to take what they can get to fight with they should be able to salvage and use Imperial equipment so in effect rebels could have AT-ST's of their own or something similar made from salvaged parts.
Having a scouttrooper profession would necessitate the need for speeder mounted weapons and Having a mountable AT-AT would do the same for multiperson vehicles. Just a few thoughts butI think it would greatly improve the game as well as the GCW.
FredP
Wed Sep 08, 2004 1:09 pm
#556
My two cents:
I am a firm believer in simplicity.
This is the only game I know of that has a TEF system. Noble is concept, poorly implemented.
For the sake of simplicity:
1) Get rid of TEF
2) Any player can /declare any time, any place.
This way - the only way you will ever get attacked, is if you implicitly make yourself a target.
No buffing, healing, reviving, trading, etc, between overt and covert, period! This fixes all the exploits.
As for Jedi - it is impossible to whip out a light saber and not have people know your faction!!!!
RuLyCar
Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:15 pm
#558
MY TWO CENTS:
I feel that overt/covert should be abolished in its current form. Use the TEF. What is basically represented here is visibility.
Every action you take against an enemy adds time to the TEF. If you spend all your time fighting enemy faction PvP or NPC then you build upa lot of visibility and have TEFs lasting hours or even days. It takes time for the enemy to lose interest in you. As you stay out of factional activities the TEF counts down and you are no longer visible as a factional enemy (you went into hiding). Balance can be maintained by the TEF increases, longer for killing an NPC or Player than for missions or even healing.
Barxalot Howler
Tarquinas
Tricerix
Thu Sep 09, 2004 6:03 am
#559
I feel there is one problem with the tef system. All these people are whining the boards saying pretty much "why do I have to grind way less with thie system, give me a jedi master just for buying the game". All of the weeping and moaning really started publish 9 because since jedi no longer have a tef, they have all come out of hiding. If the jedi tef was brought back for publically using their powers/sabre, people would very rarely ever see any jedi. Then everyone would just play untill they are finally jedi, and then when they get jedi they would cry that tef keeps them in hiding. No matter what nothing is going to please you. Want not, cry not baby.