Development Cycle Archive
Thread: Friday Feature Pt 2 May 7th 2004 Jedi Archives Volume II
Kiom
Wed May 19, 2004 11:04 am
#547
Thunderheart wrote:
bissli77 wrote:
rma-6edn- wrote:
TH, will i be able to develop my Light Jedi to its fullest potential, with or without the voting of chair in the council?
Is my Jedis full potential accessable, if there is coruption in the council. OR even if the council is not corrupt, i am simply never voted for posision?
other then a title, or is the title correspondent to certain abilities (full potential)
You will be able to develop your Jedi to its fullest PvE potential. The Light Side voting and Dark Side combat is strictly a PvP mechanic...
Think of the way councils work more as competition ladder.
I find it amazing that SOE is going to make player advancement on the only path they have dependent on other player's votes.
StarchMonkey
Wed May 19, 2004 11:33 am
#548
Blackjack_Nova wrote:
A voting system does seem to have some very interesting aspects when you first look at it but I do not believe the system will give the desired results.
1. Casual gamers, ok semi-casual gamers will NEVER be able to get votes that the 27/7 gamers get.
2. This system is designed for the hardcore, die hard Jedi that wants more after they have mastered everything they could. It is the 'moving
target' that help to keep the core group of hard core players in the game. It alienate the Jedi that spent a year or longer to get their powers
and did not have the time to make all of the community contacts nor foster them on a daily basis.
3. The is no mechanic for debate, no rules of conduct, no guide to keep the peace.Peoples egos as well as there good intent will get in the way. Elitism WILL set in. As members of the Light Jedi order grow, they will form a community. This community will have leadership raise to higher level
and provide order and guidance to the community. As various ideologies develop within the community, rifts will form and different groups will
vote in accordance with there ideals.
There are going to be a lot of confused, unset, and alienated Jedi. Because Jedi are not suppose to use violence as the first means for a solution, the voting system seems to be a good method at first glance. Now Light Jedi have a whole new game they will have to play.
Politician.
No thank you!
How do you know all this is what I want to know??? We have basicallyNO idea how it will work. I think jumping to conclusions like "there is no mechanic for debate" or that casual players will never get the vote is just going waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay overboard at this point. We have no idea!!
I would just ask yourself one question at this point. Do you, or do you not think that a "Jedi Council" sounds cool? I think it does. Lets wait to see the mechanics of how it will work before we decide that its a terrible plan.
I don't know about you but your last paragraph actually sounds like it would be a pretty dang cool feature. I don't see it as a bad thing.
Blackjack_Nova
Wed May 19, 2004 1:33 pm
#549
StarchMonkey - I will let this quote answer for me.
And don't forget, she's a politician, and they're *not* to be trusted. - Obi-Wan
This is the result I expect to see(my post statement) because of my life experiances. The fact is that
people form clicks, and if you are not liked for one reason on another. YOU ARE NOT GETTING IN.
Keeping the Jedi council from becoming a click, will be very very very difficult. So much so that I do not see the system being able to work. Just ask
anyone that is a member of a larger PA. What process do you have to determine who leads you? See how complex the solution is. The people that
are online the most ALWAYS end up being in leadership roles. Sometime these folks are really good leaders, other times they are excellent fighters but horrable leaders. I know because I am applying wisdom to the faults that I see. I really would like to be wrong hear.
So lets say they put in the voting system. Then once you are a Knight, how will you decided who to vote for?
Will there be a database that list a persons deeds? - No
Will there be any method to see who is more skilled then someone in combat - Yes
MMM there are 389 Jedi, who do I vote for....ahhh yes Vasheba because everyone knows her!
Come on, be honest here. The only people that benedit from this system are the hard core 24/7 Jedi The rest are well hopeless.
Good heavens, maybe they WILL need to have a single Jedi show up to bring balanace back to the Force if this goes in! A New Hope!!
jonyank
Wed May 19, 2004 1:38 pm
#550
TH:
Seems to me that all professions mastered (pre-revamp) should carry some weight inthe force power progressions, but thatHolocron professions should have more weight. Doesn't this make sense?
JedizLikeWookieCookies
Wed May 19, 2004 2:16 pm
#551
I have a question about after a character undergoes the Jedi Knight Trials and is flagged permanently overt, how will they be able to get around places if they have severe latency problems? I myself sometimes spend up to 10 minutes after getting off a shuttle at a loading screen, ive been overt and during that time have been killed with no way to defend myself, and I cant go into citys much when overt because every few steps I freeze for a few seconds to 1 minute and not able to move.
ArchFirehaven
Wed May 19, 2004 2:30 pm
#552
Seph this line of thought is actually flawed with regards to Guardians not being on the council etc etc.
Mace Windu was one of the most respected Jedi in the order...he was also recognized as the best in the art of the lightsaber (only one to master Form VII)and the end all be all soldier Jedi. He was considered second only to Yoda on the council.
Also I would argue that Yoda is not on the council or at the head of the council not because he is the most powerful in the Force (actually that may be really really true in the prequels as Anakin may be more powerful with regards to raw power) but because he is the wisest.
I think that we have uncovered two issues though. One is the inherent issues with voting...and the other being the fact that casual player will be penalized in this system. I dont think the developers can overcome both of those issues, one most likely, but not both.
Draccan
Wed May 19, 2004 2:48 pm
#553
SO YOU WANT TO BE A JEDI?? ----- SOE pls. rethink your new Jedi system !!
It appears to me that the new Jedi system will be as bad as the old system. Many things are improved and new problems equally worse will arrive. In fact, it is as bad thought out as the hologrinding. Maybe even worse.
No doubt that Hologrinding ruined a lot for the game, because nobody lost much in becoming Jedis, but could become supremely powerful. And the hologrinding made so many change profession on a non-stop basis.
Before giving my thought on why the Jedi revamp is ruinous, I want to say that I am actually not against a certain amount of Jedi presence. I do believe it doesn't ruin continuity that say 1-20 are Jedis. One can discuss EU versus the films indefintely, but that is of lesser importance. I like Jedis in the game, but ...
Here are my thoughts on why the new system are VERY bad for the game:
1. To have the Jedi system function in the game we will need a system where being a Jedi is both good and bad for a player in the sense that, with the choice of being Jedi you gain considerably (potential) power, but you must have some disadvantages.
2. The idea of having two characters are simply insane. I am aware it is already possible to have two accounts, but the price are still scaring many off. But with this system in place, EVERYBODY would want to be Jedi cause then they could have either two combat characters to switch between or even better a crafter to support them financially AND a powerful PvP Jedi.
This is as crazy as the hologrinding.
3. This is a small issue, but when you have a rule stating a Jedi cant own a building please remove admin possibility or remove the rule all together. There is no sense in having a rule as this one, if it is bypassed so easy and smoothly by having someone build a house for you and admin it to you.
4. I believe in the new system you will be very inclined to wanna be a Jedi. You don´t start to lose skill points before you are well advanced into the Jedi system.
To even out the advantage of being a Jedi, you should NOT be able to be anything but basic classes. Dabbling in other upper classes should not be allowed. Thus forcing a real choice and a real sacrifice.
Making Jedis work in the game is all about limitations.
5. Since there is nothing to lose and you get two character slots everyone will have a Jedi. The crafters who loose no skills points to dabble in force sensitivity would ALL want to be force sensitive to be the über-crafters. We all know the best crafters take the business away from everybody else.
6. As long as you can mix Jedis with other combat classes it will always be the main choice for all PvPers. But if you could limit Jedis to being Jedis there would so much more point in being BH or Master Pistoleer/Smuggler etc.
7. Please let the Jedi system also implement a situation where they must choose their combat abilities and not have enough points to master more than max. 50% of the abilities at any time no matter the level of the Jedi. That would add variety to the class.
I can only conclude at this point, that SOEs true goal is to attract many paying people into the game to be Jedis in the thousands and thousands only to pull the plug when the game falls apart.
Because these ideas and this re-vamp correct the hologrinding wrong but does not limit the amount of Jedis at all. In fact the ones that didnt care to hologrind before will now also wanna have a Jedi, and these people will bein great numbers.
There will of course be a couple of peoples who would protest and claim that they don´t want to be a Jedi, but that is gonna be a fading minority.
I am sad for the game, that it will have to face this new system, that DO have some attractive features like the trials and righting some wrong.
But seriously how hard can it be for the DEVs to understand that the system needs to implement DISADVANTAGES for the number of Jedis to be controlled at least somewhat.
Consider this a strong petition to remove the idea of the second character slot and to implement strong skill reductions for all force sensitives. Let them be über-jedis, but ONLY uber-jedis and not über-Jedi-Master-Pistoleer-or-Commando-And-what-not people...
Let people choose between force sensitivity and other classes. Period.
The rest is not silence. It is a roaring storm of the sounds of millions of lightsabers being turned ON all over the Divided game .... err ...I mean Galaxy.
.
Draccan
A BH returning to the game after an 8 month hiatus.
Blackjack_Nova
Wed May 19, 2004 3:36 pm
#554
Jedi PA "The Council"
Five members each with 5 accounts.
Each member grinds out Jedi characters. That is 50 total Jedi.
If you think that it will take people a long time to do this OR that
they can not afford it the numbers will prove you wrong. I am willing
Now everyone in "The Council" agrees to rotate their vote each time period
among the 5 main characters. That is 50 votes! Now add to that vote that
these hard core players would be as a result of mudsling, greased palms and
pay-offs.
"Never work again!! "The Council" will pay you 500,000 credits for your vote!!"
"ebay - Selling Jedi Council Vote Bid Starts at $10.00"
"Our group of Jedi will Vote for you!! We have grinded 500 Jedi and will ALWAYS vote for you!!" Bidding starts at $500.00"
Don't believe me?Just go look on ebay!
Ekhben
Wed May 19, 2004 3:54 pm
#555
You will be able to develop your Jedi to its fullest PvE potential. The Light Side voting and Dark Side combat is strictly a PvP mechanic...
And yet, there's no strictly PvE mechanic.
The design's attitude to people who do not wish to play PvP sickens me: The GCW is PvP, Jedi is PvP, by the sounds of it the bulk of space will be PvP. Don't give me that covert/overt gaff either, if you're covert, you're still PvP, but you also hand over the right to strike first.
Why do you even bother pretending to pander to PvE players? You've left us out in the cold.
And yet, there's no strictly PvE mechanic.
The design's attitude to people who do not wish to play PvP sickens me: The GCW is PvP, Jedi is PvP, by the sounds of it the bulk of space will be PvP. Don't give me that covert/overt gaff either, if you're covert, you're still PvP, but you also hand over the right to strike first.
Why do you even bother pretending to pander to PvE players? You've left us out in the cold.
OctopusSoup
Wed May 19, 2004 4:39 pm
#556
Jedi voting council could work as described. The bonus to leaders to be bonus against Imps and Dark Jedi only. Not against other Jedi, Rebels, NPC creatures or anythings else. (they could still kill them but have no bonus against them).
Voting for them would work in that the council members need to maintain certain number of missions completed (or whatever the good deed jedi faction points gained are)and such but if they are killed their council points reset. Thus they'll be forced to be active but there are consequnces and openings for other Jedi.
Im glad they did away with permadeath. I dont know how easy it will be to get force sensitivity but I suspecet it still will not be that easy to do. The simple thing to keep the numbers of Jedi down is to allow players still have only one force able character on their account. Some players may choose to never activate it as a jedi and instead go for the master crafter or any other force gifted class.
It somewhat sounded as if jedi will need to at least join imp or reb to be dark or light jedi and hopefully it will boost the GCW a bit.
Saber Crystals I always thought would have been the mined "unknown crystals". It would be fine if everyone could mine these. Just have their concentration and location be a little more sporadic than the average mineral (if possible). The other crystals gained as loot off big bads would then be theoptional ingredientto make higher quality more skillful sabers.
ArchFirehaven
Wed May 19, 2004 4:57 pm
#557
What is funny Soup is that most of the folks primarily concerned with the GCW (and not Jedi) dont want us in the GCW.
And I wholeheartedly agree.
Luke Skywalker represented the NEW HOPE in the first Star Wars movie (EPS IV). If I remember correctly the movie was not called Star Wars: A Democratic Grouping of Jedi that Vote who will be the Hope of the Week.
Luke should be the rebel Jedi. Darth and Palps the Imperial Sith.
They should give us our own war (bottom of page 18 folks for a plausible suggestion) and make it difficult to interfere with the core GCW (that is why we have alts).
rma-6edn-
Wed May 19, 2004 5:35 pm
#558
i agree Archfirehaven.
it would be nice if they looked into your proposed system.
The current Jedi should be far from the GCW, specially in this time period.
Obi wan was her only hope, i dont think the princess tried to contact any other jedi while her ship was under seige.
and she would have known of other Jedi had they had any part ofthe GCW in that time.
and how would the Dark Jedi serve the empire without fearing for thier lives? the empire and Vader wish to find ALL Jedi and kill them.
If Vader were to know of there existance, that is.
Oh well, I will embrace what ever changes you devs have coming, i would not be surprised to see the jedi succumb to many more revamps in the future. Specially if the current system is unsavory for the masses.
who knows....
OctopusSoup
Wed May 19, 2004 6:48 pm
#559
Yeah I can understand and agree with that. In that case If a Jedi attacks an NPC imp faction should Vader finally be released as the infor long long ago claimed he would do? And then maybe we get someone who goes after the Dark Jedi (I could understand Vader doing it but maybe someting else.
Dev's could just hope the BH's do the job but if they and everyone wants the Jedi to have their own war they should have some superNPC hunter.