Development Cycle Archive
Thread: IC 1-11: Combat Roles; Ranger
What defines theRanger role in combat?
Current: Nothing special. At present the ranger is nothing but "cave man", his primary strengths in collecting hides and bones, not combat.While the ranger does have creature to hit bonuses, traps, and camoflague, almost all rangers agree that these combat skills are either not notable or held by other skill lines. For example, ranger traps do not seem to be a significant improvement over scout traps. Camoflague is not well liked and the scout's mask scent seems a more viable/accepted skill. Looking at the skill stats, it also looks like the to-hit-bonus for creatures isnt so much as a bonus for rangers but an adjustment needed to keep ourweapon accuracy (in pistoleer, carbine, or rifle) on parwith the bounty hunter weapon lines.
Future: I see a ranger as a light stealth fighter - whereas commandos and bounty hunters use their all out brawn (having extra weapons skill lines), the ranger relies only on their primary weapon line but offsets their lack of further specialization in weapons by other useful ranger combat skills.And the ranger desperately needs a defining combat skill if we are going to continue playing as rangers in the end game (think 1 or even 2 years from now). Being a "cave man" bone and hide collector is great, but to most of us aranger should be a lot more than that.
What basic combat elements should they possess?
-- The to-hit bonus against creatures is nice *but* is it really a 'bonus' or is it just what we need to get our weapons accuracy(if we take pistoleer, rifleman, or carbineer) on par withwhat a bounty hunters weapons skill already is without 'bonuses'. Add up the weapons accuracy numbers in the skill lines and compare.
- Conceal: A ranger should have the ability to be a stealthy recon unit in the PVP end game. That would mean some form of a conceal ability against not only creatures but NPCs and PCs. It need not be *uber* invisibility mind you - I'd settle for being totally visible and just having my dot not be on the radar (at least beyond 64m) so I could actually sneak up on opponents using the high grass, trees, animals and terrain as cover. The current versions of conceal skills just are lame and unfun.
- Traps: Already in the ranger line, but what we have is not a notable improvement over what scouts have. Want to make rangers more fun in combat? Increase the debuffs on traps so they are more obvious and make them work against NPC and PC factional enemys. If a carbineer can knock me on my back with a shot, why can't my ranger splatter glow juice goo all over him to make him more vulnerable to attack? This seems like a no brainer to me.
Over all it seems that the development team has suffered from tunnel vision - trying to make the bounty hunter a PvP hunter while keeping the ranger a PvE hunter. In the process, you have cut Rangers out of the PVP end game that many of us would equally enjoy as much as PvE. It might be different if we could have two or more characters per server, but you have limited us to just one.
What offensive abilities?
Conceal against NPCs and PCs (ok if limited, doesnt need to be uber, just enough to be able to sneak up on an opponent and give the class a recon/ feel). This is needed to offset the ranger's naturally weaker weapons skills as we will not have as much weapons specialization as a bounty hunter, commander, pure mastermarksman-weapons specialist, or even a smuggler (which has its own pistol line).
Trapping - debuffs against NPCs and PCs. See thoughts above. If a carbineers shot can knock me on my pack, my glow juice trap should be able to illuminate them as a target just like it does for an animal.
What defensive abilities?
Conceal for sneaking/recon.
Traps for the escape once caught. See thoughts above on these.
What unique abilities?
Some form of conceal to allow sneaking and advanced PVP recon I dont need more weapons skills (else I would drop ranger and play one of those skill lines instead).
Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?
Ability to conceal a group at master level (maybe just outside 64m ranger of target) would make the class very much sought for PVP.
How could/should they interact with other professions?
Now: We just get accepted in groups because we can build camps. No one adds us to the group for any combat skills. In fact, unless you're a CH with a big pet or a doctor most of us are not coveted in groups.
What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?
Rangers should be fairly independent because it is in the nature of our characters to be out in the woods, not camping in the cities. Dependencies with an architect to allow construction of permanent camps (allowing ranger to build a small number of permanent field bases just like we can now build a ton of permanent houses) might be nice.
What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?
Light fighter, recon troops, who uses stealth/conceal to make up for lesser weapons skills. This seems essential to make the ranger a viable class for the long haul, so that we still want to play it 2 years from now, so there is an end game we can participate in (other than just tagging along as a cave man).
Thunderheart wrote:Given the basic considerations listed above, please answer the following questions:
What defines the Ranger role in combat?
What basic combat elements should they possess?
What offensive abilities?
What defensive abilities?
What unique abilities?
Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?
How could/should they interact with other professions?
What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?
What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?
Request For Comments:
The community is invited to make comments through April. At that time, the thread will be closed to further comments. Feel free to comment on any or all of the above items. Please stay on topic.
Role in Combat:
Rangers should be like Masters of stealth, spying and recon. The game DAOC had the ability for its Ranger/Scout/Rogue types to cloak and infiltrate unseen until attacking. That game still managed to keep itself balanced, I don't understand how having it in SWG would not work and make things unbalanced. And this is STARWARS okay... camo'ing ourselves with meat and hide? Please! Why not cloaking devices???
Rangers of course should have a better chance of detecting other Rangers stealth.. but it should be an active "chance" skill, not a "given" passive one. A first strike sneak attack would be an optional addition, perhaps not a killing stroke, but I paralyzing or crippling one.
Combat Elements:
Not sure what is meant by this one.. but just think "sneaky".
Offensive Abilities:
I don't think they should be very strong offensively in of themselves. A sneak-attack would be the limit if they do have offensive abilities. Against creatures, they should have an unparalled knowledge and precision of the kill.
Defensive Abilities:
Upon reaching Master, Rangers should be VERY VERY VERY hard for a creature to hit. Ranger dedicate their lives to the study and hunting of creatures. This knowledge should aid them in evasion of attack.
Their terrain negotiation should be far above that of Scouts. They spend an awful lot of time running around in the wild on foot.. and as such should be considered "wilderness athletes" able to run faster over flat and not so flat ground.
Unique Abilities:
Tracking, stealthy evasion from creature and humanoid alike. The ability to pass some of these abilities on (although in a diminished capacity) to members of his party.
Group Combat:
See above.
Interaction with other professions:
Support role for the most part.. we can provide unique abilities that no one else can come close to, but we are weak in direct combat without the support of others. Our attacks are precise, but not overpowering so we certainly need the help of others and they certainly will be able to utilize our "sneakiness".
GCW:
Spy, assassin, recon, resource provider, tracker, etc.
I support NRass's Outdoorsman thread, there are things that would be cool like invisibility/radar cloaking and such but from what I understand this is currently out of the question.
However NRass has compiled a list of ideas that have been debated on the Ranger forum for a good deal of time now, heck each tree in Ranger has had a thread devoted to it (And each thread has had a new one thread made because they were started to get a a load ofreplies in them) and the Outdoorsman write-up is a very well written compilation of good deal of the ideas.
I back The Outdoorsman
here is the link
Click me and read
KuroiArashi wrote:
Did the Devs forget the Smuggler thread in all this?
I know its off topic, but I kinda agree...its odd that Ranger is listed under Combat Roles, but not Smuggler, even though Smuggler requires two combat trees to reach novice and has its owncombat specials...
Calculus_Entropy wrote:
The ranger community has prepared a new concept, "The Outdoorsman," (via Nraas) concerning this very topic, and I feel that would be the best way to answer your questions. Please refer to the document he sent you (TH) or to the ranger forum thread called (ironically) "The Outdoorsman."
I fully support and endorse "The Outdoorsman" view of the Ranger Profession.
Thanks for asking btw....
I support the outdoorsman skript from N'raas
Another Master Ranger that supports the Outdoorsmen concept.
The number one point I see that can help Rangers is fixing the traps. The two Ranger trapsare suppose to be 'area' traps but I'll have three creatures surrounding my pet and I throw at the crowd and only one is effected.
Other then track area there is not a single skill in the Ranger tree that is unique - and even then aguy zooming around ona bike does the same thing. I like the idea that Rangers could Track down a particular creature. So if we are hunting for a Graul we can select it from a list and find one.
Implementing any of the Outdoorsmen concepts would be great!!!
- Crile
- Master Ranger
- Lowca
TH since you didn’t specify exactly, I will answer these with what I think the Ranger should be in SWG.
What defines the Ranger roll in combat? Stealth. The ranger, in any genre of any type, is the master of stealth, especially in the outdoors. They are the ones sneaking in to make devastating first strike blows, either to personnel or to equipment, to partially disable the enemy. The Ranger is basically a support roll in combat, whether it be PvE or PvP. They do not need to use a specific weapon, for they are an addition to any combat profession picked up. So their combat skills can be used with both melee and ranged. They should be the ones sneaking in to get some intel on the enemy. Waiting to ambush the enemy. When hunting animals, they should be the master of animal hunting. If a group is hunting big game, they should really desire a ranger, for their abilities to greatly aid the group in taking down the animal, finding the animals, and keeping the group safer while hunting. The ranger is not exactly great at sustained combat, but rather at first strikes, and supporting the main combatants. They should also be the anti CH pet profession. If you are going into PvP and there are going to be CH with pets, you should greatly desire a ranger to neutralize those pets. The ranger should be about using tactics and knowing what skill/abilities to use when. Not just, run in and blast away. There are some great ideas for this in Nraas Outdoorsman document.
What basic combat elements should they posses? The ranger should be able to sneak up to an animal or NPC undetected (with chance to fail of course) and make a devastating first strike. They are a support roll. The should be able to ambush Players in PvP, say stay in hiding and if someone gets close, make a devastating first strike on them. Or set a trap or claymore. Again the ranger should be the anti CH. They should have very effective traps that work on high level animals, up to at least level 30 maybe 40. The scout is nice for hunting on starting planets, but if you are hunting on an advanced planet, then you should want a ranger a long. With their creature knowledge, they should know what animals weaknesses and strengths are. This would allow them to get a great damage bonus on top of the to hit mod. Maybe a chance at a critical hit. Again with creature knowledge they know how the animals attack, what their specials are, how much damage they do. Thus they should have a great defense vs damage from animals. Both of these can go up as your creature knowledge goes up. This would offset the rescue skill and make it so if a high level creature did agro on a ranger, it would not instantly kill them. They have good defenses. If they are camouflaged they should have a To Hit mod on them making it harder to hit them, because their outline is obscured in the wilderness. Once again, a lot of this is well discussed in Nraas Outdoorsman document.
What offensive abilities? Same as above. They should have the ability to make a devastating first attack, to either NPC, Animals, or PC. They should have a good damage mod to animals only They should some great traps, mostly for animals, but maybe a pit or claymore for players and NPC. The claymore can be laid in spot, it has an area of attack. If anyone goes into that area it goes off. To offset some balance since the claymore is hidden, it will go off if anyone steps near it. Only the ranger, and maybe anyone in their group, will see this area. This way they can use it for tactics, and "lead" an enemy into it. There can be some timer on claymores so if they are set off within say 30 or 60, it disappears. The ranger traps should be very effective and helpful against higher level animals. It should be so that if you are going after high level game on advanced planet, a ranger along is a great asset. Their traps, make it easier and faster to take down an animal, or to neutralize it enough to get past it safely. The rangers traps should be great against the Master CH pets. If a CH sees a ranger on the field of battle, it should be bad news. The ranger, if using proper skills and traps, should be able to neutralize a CH pets, and make it much easier to take down. Right now, there is no other way to take down a CH pet other then lots of damage. They are great in PvP combat for that, and there is no real counter. The fac pets and DE pets have the commando to fear, and the players have the BH to fear. Who does the CH fear? Once again, we have some great ideas on how to implement this soft of stuff in Nraas Outdoorsman document. (seeing a theme here Thunderheart?)
What defensive abilities? The high defense mod or To Hit mod on a ranger from animals needs to be there. This skill can increase with the increase in creature knowledge. When using /conceal for example, there could be a defense mod on a ranger as I talked about above. Some like a /hide skill, where if you are wearing camo kit and using /conceal and are prone, you are basically invisible. But you cant move or attack or anything, or it cancels. Our /conceal needs to work better then mask scent and needs to work against NPC. If you want reasons why check out my post in ranger about Logic behind keeping /conceal vs NPC. I get into great detail there, and other rangers do as well. But once again Nraas Outdoorsman document has some ideas on this area, that we discussed as a community.
What unique abilities? Well much like they have now, with traps, conceal, and /areatrack is great. A /track skill that pulls up a list of local animals to choose from, where you select a creature type. A WP or something is created to a location where that animal should be waiting. Maybe not, maybe something else, maybe nothing, maybe it moved on. Definitely need more and way better traps. A guile suite would be nice, and maybe some kind of trap launcher. The ability to keep groups safe in the wild, pretty much like the current /conceal and camo kits. They ranger should be able to hide/conceal much better then a player they hide. A ranger can dress someone up in local flora, but can’t teach them how to move and hide, and crawl. There are some great ideas in the Outdoorsman document.
As for the others just look in the Outdoorsman document. The ranger community has spent much time and effort, especially Nraas on this, and in general agree on it as a community. It is put together with ideas from all of us. On the dependencies of other professions, the claymore above can be crafted by WS. There is a trap launcher in Outdoorsman made by WS. I think Nraas idea for the modular camps is good, especially if maybe all the offensive/defensive stuff for them is from the SL. Say the ranger lays out the camp, the HTFB for example. Then a SL in the group, can add some module to the camp to make it more of a temp base. With some offensive and defensive options, maybe the garage, and other stuff Nraas has in there.