Development Cycle Archive
Thread: Roundtable Discussion: GCW and TEFs
Das-Veyordo
Wed Jul 14, 2004 12:13 am
#456
The TEF system is working perfectly and exactly the way it should be and is intended, the underlining problem is the power of a large group of coverts with 1 or 2 overts and cloning.
The best way i can think of that will allow a group defense without clone zerging... is to put a 5 minute combat timer on someone that dies in pvp; this would not allow them to constantly attack after cloning. (ex: person A[imp] is slain by person B[rebel], after cloning person A[imp] sees person B[rebel] fighting a group member; person C[imp]. Person A[imp] can'tattack person B[rebel]for 5 minutes, being groggy from cloning, BUT he can heal his comrad person C[imp] and gain a tef, but may not initiate another attack until the timer dies.)
Also, ifa group contains more then 5 people and has an overt leader, or contains more then 1 overt of the same faction, it will cause all membersin the group of the same faction to gain a tef. (much like the way jedi tefs ensue grouped marks.)
The problem isn't getting a tef for healing an overt... the person acknowledges that their ally is overt, and in healing them, completely accepts the consequences of being marked an enemy of the opposite faction for their aid in healing a publicly announced faction member.
Covatt
Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:16 am
#457
I was wondering if that was ever gonna happen anyway (in my advancement through the ranks).
I am WO I atm and have no idea how far up that can go, but i just think it to be logical, that, if you reach a certain rank and have done a certain amount of missions,
the Enemy's Intelligence will more likely know stuff about you, and that you become kind of infamous.
I mean, ok, its fantasy and all, but give even fantasy ppl some credit on what they know or what they can (a.k.a. what they should know).
There is lots of stuff in this game already, that is not in any way logical, but bringing it down completely on all of us, just so the munchkins have fun, ain't worth it.
"I want to be Imperial General, i want my full suit of storm trooper armor and a squad of AT STs, but hell ... no TEF, lest i get drawn into a PvP fight!!!" (actually overheard someone making a similar statement (including the suit AND the AT STs, not the rank though) earlier this week.
Anyways, TEF is a good idea, and should NOT be changed. If you do not want to get involved in the GCW, then DON'T. Why should I stand there watching someone slaughtering the stormtroopers at some location and could not help defend them (which, by all means would be MY role in the GCW, if i were Imp), just because the guy only wants PvE?
Higher Rank --> Overt
'nuff said ;-)
TheRealXur
Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:32 am
#458
Thunderheart wrote:One of the ongoing community discussions is the GCW, PvP and the issue of TEF's. TEF's exist because we have a mix of playstyles with a PvP switch. Overts are PvP all the time and Covert's are PvP sometimes. Because of this situation, there are a list of actions that happen in the game that cause a player to get a "Temporary Enemy Flag" that makes them Overt for a short period of time or prevents them from trading to an enemy, etc.To kick things off, lets create a "players handbook" listfor GCW TEF's that catalogue's all of the possible TEF's and use it as a point of discussion so we can identify which items promote exciting Overt / Covert combat situations and which are problematic.Message Edited by Thunderheart on 07-12-2004 06:15 PM
TEF's provide for nothing but confusion and grief.
Make PvP truely consensual and require that everyone that wishes to participate in factional PvP simply declare.
Trading should not cause a TEF, there is no reason for this at all on a battlefield. Medics should be required to be overt to heal/buff an overt.
Change the building "tef" or lockout to simply restrict entry on any structure while you are currently engaged in combat with anything.
Want to make it work "sorta" like the tef system, fine, notify the player that the if they heal that target they will be turned overt.
If you fire on an enemy NPC or any other thing that usually causes a TEF you are turned overt, give you the option to decide.
And while you're at it, fix faction scanners and turrets the same way you did with mine fields, if they're not attached to a base, they shouldn't be on the ground.
If you want an "easy" and "quick" fix, simply change the TEF to overt stats, no more I'm tef'd to him, and he's tef'd to her, and if it's thursday and I'm wearing red so and so can kill me. If you're tef'd, you're declared for the next five minutes period.
And while you're at it, an overt player getting tef's from another overt player (IE, a doctor healing an overt in a structure such as a hospital) is silly and pointless.
You FORCE people to pick a faction in this game because a player cannot interact with the majority of the game unless they do so, then you turn around and find 10 different ways to sunday to punish them and give the excuse "well the dancer/droid engineer shouldn't be factioned then".
PvP in this game is not a choice, it is forced, and will continue to be so as long as there is a TEF system.
Strel
Wed Jul 14, 2004 3:13 am
#459
Thunderheart wrote:
fatgit wrote:
I agree that covert players SHOULD get a TEF for factional PvE.
However, simply trading with an overt will get you a TEF, this seems to be a bit over the top.
It heavily depends on what you are trading. Certain things that are traded can have a serious impact on the game. To flag each item and do an item check every time a player traded something to another player would give the system an aneurysm. Instead, the prevention measures for the potential combat grief falls on factional status. The side effect certainly is the pain of the "trade TEF" and I am pushing for that to be included in the GCW revamp.
TEF in itself is fine as it is. An enemy combatant reveals themselves by firing on troops? He gets a TEF, the overt receives first strike. The problem I think most have trouble with is GROUP TEF. A covert is grouped with an overt. An opposing faction member fires on the overt, not knowing he was grouped with the covert. The covert now gets a TEF on the OVERT, essentially giving the covert a first strike benefit without having to be overt. That's the only problem. The rest of the TEF is of course acceptable. We should have a way of protecting stormtroopers as overt, of course.
galahad646
Wed Jul 14, 2004 5:21 am
#460
I like GTEF and TEF's. It makes sense. When an overt creeps through town he is not going to know who of the opposite faction is covert. When a battle starts then the covert has a choice to come to his comrade's or to stay in hiding. I also thing that factional PvE should TEF you no matter what. If you don't want the TEF then find something else to level on. I think if an overt Imperial rolled up on someone killing a ST they should be able to attack because that person is obviously not a friend of the Empire. All these actions have choices to make. An overt Imperial could head to Anchorhead to attack some overt Rebels. He is in unfamiliar teritory and does not know that there is a strong hidden Rebel presence. He starts attacking then in overcome by a large hidden Rebel force. Even though a lot of people complain about it, the TEF system really does make sense. I do believe that everyone on base raids and defenses should be overt though. Being on a raid or defense is not being very covert.
The only thing that I don't think makes any sense is Jedi not TEFing themselves when healing. That is such a pain when doing BH missions because if there are 2 Jedi, one can just sit there and heal the entire time with no risk of being attacked. Yet if I am going after an Imperial Jedi and an Imperial doctor tries to heal the Jedi I can kill the doc. That makes no sense to me.
TshenQin
Wed Jul 14, 2004 5:33 am
#461
I think removing TEF would be a good idea. As long as coverts are prevented from attacking player placed faction bases. Those who want to do PvP can go overt those who just like to fight for a faction but not participate in PvP can be covert.
Added to that i would like to see faction uniforms and armor usable by both overt and coverts. Or give PA's the ability to choose one of the uniform/armor sets to wear. This would be usefull for the more RP oriented groups who like to fight there own more private GCW without being bothered by those who are just around for PvP.
Qin
Added to that i would like to see faction uniforms and armor usable by both overt and coverts. Or give PA's the ability to choose one of the uniform/armor sets to wear. This would be usefull for the more RP oriented groups who like to fight there own more private GCW without being bothered by those who are just around for PvP.
Qin
Nolm
Wed Jul 14, 2004 5:48 am
#462
Ok on topic of Tef's and GCW,& Faction bases
well personaly i feel faction bases should tef covert players that run inside i mean come on its an enemy compound, and once inside you should be fair target for any opposing faction member, Off topic, Faction bases vul time needs to be changed so that only the person who put the base up knows its vuln time, its BS i can make a rebel char run inside a rebel base get the vuln time and then send in the imps at the right time to destroy something that in some cases may take some one 2 -3 months to get.
KeithJedi
Wed Jul 14, 2004 9:28 am
#463
You know, I don't want to grind XP against stormtroopers, I just want to be able to play a Star Wars game without having to PvP against a power-gamer. It's a matter of balance, for me. I'm a casual player. I don't have time, or the interest to try to earn enough credits for two suits of armor (one PvP one PvE), the best weapons, buffs, foods, etc. But I would like to be part of the GCW. But in the current game that means I open myself up to being killed by someone who outmatches me at every levelevery time I do that.
That death might not seem like a big deal to the PvP players, but it's time that I don't have to have to get myself back together again to keep playing. And there's no way I'm going to match a PvP player in combat, though I might be able to take any of the games AI characters.
Personally, I think it would be kewl if there was a PvP GCW and a non-PvP GCW. Make the whole PvP game untouchable by those of us who don't want to participate, but do want to play a Star Wars game. Yeah, I could just kill animals or swoopers, but that makes the game a drag and more like Deer Hunter in space than Star Wars.
DND_Cas
Wed Jul 14, 2004 9:48 am
#464
KeithJedi wrote:
Personally, I think it would be kewl if there was a PvP GCW and a non-PvP GCW. Make the whole PvP game untouchable by those of us who don't want to participate, but do want to play a Star Wars game. Yeah, I could just kill animals or swoopers, but that makes the game a drag and more like Deer Hunter in space than Star Wars.
The problem is tho that other players still have the desire to be able to help out factioned npc's when they are being attacked. There has to be some mechanism so that one side can protect its assets from the other.
This isn't something that can just be dismissed by people who have your playstyle.
Perhaps the solution could be that you don't die at all and simply get kicked from the relevant poi for a duration of time. In the case of a mission - the failure of that mission.Perhaps instead of wounds and cloning a spice downer type effect for a certain period of time on all attributes.
Whatever the solution is because of the nature of starwars and the gcw there will be some crossover between pve and pvp. Remember that many PvP'ers want the GCW to be PvP only and you are just about giving the same answer but in reverse.
DeepScan
Wed Jul 14, 2004 10:22 am
#465
i believe the TEF system is good and shouldnt be removed but maybe a few things added.
1)Squad leaders should get TEF's for giving orders to overts.
2)Docs/Medic should get TEFs for draggin players.... I'm a doc and i used to be able to do that TEF free. havent dragged anyone while covert in awhile so im not sure if this is already fixed.
3)TEF for indimidate and warcry... I've seen battles where a neutral on one side or covert runs around warcrying the enemy over and overand not getting a TEF.
like someone mentioned. grouping with an overt should give a TEF.or maybe those coverts can't attack any overt unless they are attacked, regardless if they're overt bud is attacked. just like how healing an overt works. you heal someone ungrouped, you get a tef. you now can be attacked but you cant attack until you are.
still wish they would add /citywarn back in. cities need someway of dealing with covert spies and neutral spies. Some kind of countdown TEF or something.
TechnoHic
Wed Jul 14, 2004 10:36 am
#466
KeithJedi wrote:
You know, I don't want to grind XP against stormtroopers, I just want to be able to play a Star Wars game without having to PvP against a power-gamer. It's a matter of balance, for me. I'm a casual player. I don't have time, or the interest to try to earn enough credits for two suits of armor (one PvP one PvE), the best weapons, buffs, foods, etc. But I would like to be part of the GCW. But in the current game that means I open myself up to being killed by someone who outmatches me at every levelevery time I do that.
That death might not seem like a big deal to the PvP players, but it's time that I don't have to have to get myself back together again to keep playing. And there's no way I'm going to match a PvP player in combat, though I might be able to take any of the games AI characters.
Personally, I think it would be kewl if there was a PvP GCW and a non-PvP GCW. Make the whole PvP game untouchable by those of us who don't want to participate, but do want to play a Star Wars game. Yeah, I could just kill animals or swoopers, but that makes the game a drag and more like Deer Hunter in space than Star Wars.
The thing is, people may be getting the wrong impression and think I PvP all the time since I am for being able to be attacked for killing NPCs of the other faction but truth is, I've been on since launch and I have spent 90% of my time covert. I have ran missions and had no problem avoiding PvP when I dont want it.
Now, If I go to a rebel base and start leveling rebel NPCs (They are all really easy) I am looking fora fight. To play devils advocate, I would say just let people do their missions and not get TEF but if you go to a base, player run or any static like the Dant Outpost, there needs to always be TEF no matter what rank as otherwise, people would exploit or use it just to taunt the other faction.
silversaber
Wed Jul 14, 2004 11:36 am
#467
KeithJedi wrote:
You know, I don't want to grind XP against stormtroopers, I just want to be able to play a Star Wars game without having to PvP against a power-gamer. It's a matter of balance, for me. I'm a casual player. I don't have time, or the interest to try to earn enough credits for two suits of armor (one PvP one PvE), the best weapons, buffs, foods, etc. But I would like to be part of the GCW. But in the current game that means I open myself up to being killed by someone who outmatches me at every levelevery time I do that.
That death might not seem like a big deal to the PvP players, but it's time that I don't have to have to get myself back together again to keep playing. And there's no way I'm going to match a PvP player in combat, though I might be able to take any of the games AI characters.
Personally, I think it would be kewl if there was a PvP GCW and a non-PvP GCW. Make the whole PvP game untouchable by those of us who don't want to participate, but do want to play a Star Wars game. Yeah, I could just kill animals or swoopers, but that makes the game a drag and more like Deer Hunter in space than Star Wars.
This is pretty darn close to the reasons that I dont want PvP. Not exactly but close.
All I and alota other players are asking is give usregular playerssome sections of the GCW in which we can play inwithout having to worry about Jonny Roxxor wandering by.
They did have something in-game called Battlefields but they turned out so buggy thatthey were unplayable and were eventually taken out with the so far hollowpromise that they would be reinstated later.
All we are asking is to put the Battlefields back in,and maybe add insome instanced dungion content like Corvette.
Saying that if one doesnt like PvP,that personshould never join and participate in the central theme and core content of the game is not areasonableand viable responce.
KeithJedi
Wed Jul 14, 2004 2:21 pm
#468
KeithJedi wrote:You know, I don't want to grind XP against stormtroopers, I just want to be able to play a Star Wars game without having to PvP against a power-gamer. It's a matter of balance, for me. I'm a casual player. I don't have time, or the interest to try to earn enough credits for two suits of armor (one PvP one PvE), the best weapons, buffs, foods, etc. But I would like to be part of the GCW. But in the current game that means I open myself up to being killed by someone who outmatches me at every level every time I do that.That death might not seem like a big deal to the PvP players, but it's time that I don't have to have to get myself back together again to keep playing. And there's no way I'm going to match a PvP player in combat, though I might be able to take any of the games AI characters.Personally, I think it would be kewl if there was a PvP GCW and a non-PvP GCW. Make the whole PvP game untouchable by those of us who don't want to participate, but do want to play a Star Wars game. Yeah, I could just kill animals or swoopers, but that makes the game a drag and more like Deer Hunter in space than Star Wars.
Not a bad idea. So create something like the Lost Dungeons of Norrath add-on for EverQuest, which creates instanced content, where I can take a PvE GCW group in with no PvP consequence. I really like this in a way...it would retain the feel of the Covert Rebel, since the missions wouldn't necessarily affect the way non-instanced versions of the factioned NPCs reacted to me. RP-wise, I am only choosing to do covert missions where I can destroy the factioned outpost or something similar, and avoid detection. Perhaps (and this is a big perhaps) there could be a consequence for failure in the mission like a loss of Imperial faction, so that I become "more well known" to the Imps. Don't know about that one, since I assume if I became KOS to Imps that would mean if I respond to an NPC attack I get TEF'd?
Good thought, though.