Development Cycle Archive

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Das-Veyordo wrote:

The problem isn't getting a tef for healing an overt... the person acknowledges that their ally is overt, and in healing them, completely accepts the consequences of being marked an enemy of the opposite faction for their aid in healing a publicly announced faction member.

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Thunderheart wrote:

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uofwi92 wrote:

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Thunderheart wrote:

This has been a really great thread and new discussions are still popping up.

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Paulie35 wrote:
Remove TEF. If a player does not want to PvP they should not have to.

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If we did that, it would dramatically change things. As it stands, people don't ever have to play PvP. They can remain Neutral and never have to be involved. Declaring Covert means a player primarily wants to play GCW PvE. There are certain actions that will push them to Overt status or put them at risk, but in each case, its a choice the player makes to get involved.

Should that risk not be part of the conflict? It was something that players strongly requested pre-launch.

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I agree with this poster. I hated nothing more than when I was a noob killing stuff in the Imperial Research Facility on Naboo, just trying to level up and get some decent loot when a master Imperial would show up and wax us because we were TEF'ed. I never made the choice to fight this person, but I had to because I was killing Imp NPCs.

This does, however, create a divide between overt and the rest of the game. If you're not overt, you shouldn't be able to heal someone who is (ala gtef). I think you should be able to trade, though... /shrug

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What about the idea of tying rank to TEF's so that playing in PvE GCW content doesnt gain you a flag unless you've earned a fair amount of Faction Rank?

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I like this idea -- making it something more like the new Jedi system, where you can choose to participate in PvP at higher levels if you want to.

Personally, I have never played in the GCW partially because the ruleset to me is so confusing. I've never been quite sure exactly WHAT would earn me a TEF or how long that TEF would last. There's really no good documentation on it that I could find. And though every time I see a stormtrooper in the game I have that Star Warsey need to shoot at them, I don't want to declare because I don't want to turn a PvE session into a PvP session where I get roasted like a womp rat at a skyhopper show. I'm not a power-gamer, and I will never really be good at PvP because I don't want to invest the time or the credits.

I'm just not really a fan of PvE in MMOs (call me a carebear, or care-Wookiee as the case may be) because I believe it kind of splits the community, since you have a portion of them playing against each other while another portion works with each other. There are ways to do PvP that work, I think, but I think they involve a greater degree of choice than the SWG TEF system gives. Basically a good portion of what would really make this game Star Warsey to me (shooting at Stormtroopers) means I have to be a PvP-ready player.

Now I wouldn't mind a system where the power gamers could enjoy building bases and commanding stormtroopers and could leave me out of it. I don't want to shoot at their stormies if it means they get to shoot at me. I don't know how possible it is to have two types of stormtrooper NPCs, but it would be on my wish-list for SWG. And I know it would probably be confusing, but maybe if there was a way of doing something more like battlefields where they could use their NPCs -- maybe something like Imperial bases and Rebel bases where PvP players could attack and defend them. Hmmmm....imagine if there was a way to link that with JTL -- a group of Imperials in TIE fighters fight their way through the defenses of a Rebel Blockade Runner and then have to storm it in the ground game. Sounds kind of fun to me...almost makes me wish I wasn't a care-Wookiee!

Anyway, any system that allows you to be a part of the Star Warsey-ness of the GCW while also allowing you a choice of whether you want to PvP would be an improvement to this game for me.

If you join the Rebel or the Imperial faction, you are agreeing to PvP. Rebel/Imperial is the Galactic Civil War component (PvP) of the game. In this system, there are 2 choices you can make: Covert or Overt. Both open you up to the PvP nature of the system; this is how the system is intended to work. The Galactic Civil War was not created to allow people to hunt down enemy NPCs on the opposite side of the war and get away with it free and clear.

Those who do not believe the GCW system is designed for PvP, I ask to check the instruction manual under the Galactic Civil War section (pgs 170-175). It documents in detail exactly how the system works.

I've heard alot of people say "Well, what about us non-combatants?" - That is for another thread, and trust me I have anotepad fullof ideas on how to involve all non-combatant classes into the Galactic Civil War. However, this thread deals exclusively with the issue of TEF as it exists currently in the system we're discussing.

TEF is working exactly as intended and is fine as it is. Those who argue have plenty of solutions that have been given to them on how to avoid it, most notable are:

• Stay away from Crackdown cities.


• Do not carry (illegal) contraband.


• Do not enter opposing faction Player Cities.


• Stay away from Covert scanners.


• Stay away from enemy bases.


• Take faction missions in low populated areas. (Talus, far out aligned Players cities, etc.)

If you cannot do this, you shouldn't be in the PvP system. (War is for soldiers, not carebears.)

Now, my suggestions on TEF/GTEF:

Temporary Enemy Flags (TEF)

+ TEF should be changed to a 1 minute duration. (Wait for it....)
+ TEF should "stack"

If you running a standard factional destroy mission, you're going to run into (usually) 4-6 enemy NPCs. This will basically keep TEF exactly as it is currently. This will however:

+ Prevent spawn campers in the Crackdown cities.
+ Prevent "covert" farming at opposing factional bases.
+ Prevent "covert" Doctors running battles amuck.

Grouped Temporary Enemy Flags (GTEF)

2 choices here (same can be said for TradeTEFs as well):

+ Remove GTEF completely.
+ Turn all coverts into overt if an overt in your group attacks the enemy.

Crackdown Temporary Enemy Flags (CDTEF)

This one is my own idea of what I'd like to see in the game. IMO, this would make being a Rebel more like a Rebel. (Benefits RP and could be considered as fun or "what would happen if this were the movies" sort of situation.

+ First off, no more flagging Rebels overt. (If they can't return to covert quickly (as covered by a previous poster), you shouldn't put them in this situation. Not all players have more than 1-2 hours a day to play.)
+ TEF (CDTEF) them instead. (Based on my suggested change of TEF.)
+ CDTEF should stay with you indefinately, until you clear the city. (example: move 150m out of city radius.)
+ While CDTEF'd, Imperial troops should be dispatched tothe general vicinity of your "dispute".
+ Troops should then begin patrols around the city looking for you until you clear the CDTEF zone. (example: 150m from ciry radius.)
+ At this point, the CDTEF is gone and if you want you can return to the city.

For me, I think that would be a wonderful bit of "movie-typed interaction" - Again though, that's just my opinion of the matter.

Flame me if you choose, but those are my ideas and suggestions for TEF in the GCW system. Now I can't wait for a "Non-combatant inclusion in the GCW" thread. I'm going to have fun with that thread too.

Message Edited by Limbonik on 07-13-2004 02:42 PM

Message Edited by damocles88 on 07-13-2004 07:03 PM

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Limbonik wrote:

If you join the Rebel or the Imperial faction, you are agreeing to PvP. Rebel/Imperial is the Galactic Civil War component (PvP) of the game. In this system, there are 2 choices you can make: Covert or Overt. Both open you up to the PvP nature of the system; this is how the system is intended to work. The Galactic Civil War was not created to allow people to hunt down enemy NPCs on the opposite side of the war and get away with it free and clear.

Those who do not believe the GCW system is designed for PvP, I ask to check the instruction manual under the Galactic Civil War section (pgs 170-175). It documents in detail exactly how the system works.

While I respect highly your ideas on TEF, your BS, nazi attitude towards PvE GCWers is pretty infuriating. Why dont you stick to what you're good at...coming up with new game mechanics. That goes for all of you PvP lovers out there who refuse to put up with a complimentary way of playing this game. You go fight the war your way and leave the rest of us alone. I know the conflict here is related to a game mechanic that affects both our playing styles... but we dont have to get all palestinian and israeli to figure out a solution.

And stop bringing up the damn manual. Its crap and you know it. There is a GCW PvE system... I play it every damn day. I don't care that much what you do with TEF...as I said I actually like your ideas. Just dont rob me of my current ability to come home after a long day at work and mindlessly fight storm troopers while roleplaying a little with my friends.

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damocles88 wrote:


While I respect highly your ideas on TEF, your BS, nazi attitude towards PvE GCWers is pretty infuriating. Why dont you stick to what you're good at...coming up with new game mechanics. That goes for all of you PvP lovers out there who refuse to put up with a complimentary way of playing this game. You go fight the war your way and leave the rest of us alone. I know the conflict here is related to a game mechanic that affects both our playing styles... but we dont have to get all palestinian and israeli to figure out a solution.

And stop bringing up the damn manual. Its crap and you know it. There is a GCW PvE system... I play it every damn day. I don't care that much what you do with TEF...as I said I actually like your ideas. Just dont rob me of my current ability to come home after a long day at work and mindlessly fight storm troopers while roleplaying a little with my friends.

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I agree, I don't think Covert status should be taken out of the game, because it is an important mechanic for those that do not want full on PvP to still participate in the GCW. And on the other side of the coin I don't think Coverts should be immune from TEFs.

Thats why I don't think the TEF system should be changed at all. (Except for GTEFs) At the moment we have the perfect balance between the two sides. A player can not murder a squad of stormtroopers in front of an Imperial Player. And PvPers can not constantly gank Coverts who don't want toPvP. Both sides should be happy with the system we have now, but they are so blinded by their personaly feelings and biases that they refuse to concede any territory to the other playstyle.

-red

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Thunderheart wrote:

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uofwi92 wrote:

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Thunderheart wrote:

This has been a really great thread and new discussions are still popping up.

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Paulie35 wrote:
Remove TEF. If a player does not want to PvP they should not have to.

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If we did that, it would dramatically change things. As it stands, people don't ever have to play PvP. They can remain Neutral and never have to be involved. Declaring Covert means a player primarily wants to play GCW PvE. There are certain actions that will push them to Overt status or put them at risk, but in each case, its a choice the player makes to get involved.

Should that risk not be part of the conflict? It was something that players strongly requested pre-launch.

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I agree with this poster. I hated nothing more than when I was a noob killing stuff in the Imperial Research Facility on Naboo, just trying to level up and get some decent loot when a master Imperial would show up and wax us because we were TEF'ed. I never made the choice to fight this person, but I had to because I was killing Imp NPCs.

This does, however, create a divide between overt and the rest of the game. If you're not overt, you shouldn't be able to heal someone who is (ala gtef). I think you should be able to trade, though... /shrug

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What about the idea of tying rank to TEF's so that playing in PvE GCW content doesnt gain you a flag unless you've earned a fair amount of Faction Rank?

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then no one would ever go up in rank.

Unless you're planning on adding some serious benefits to being a high rank.

How about only allowing ranks to attack others of that rank with a tef? How about only allowing overts to attack people with tefs that are in range of their combat level?

We just need some way to keep novice marksman imps/rebels from being attack by master bh rebels/imps if they only have a tef. That's griefing.

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Limbonik wrote:

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damocles88 wrote:

While I respect highly your ideas on TEF, your BS, nazi attitude towards PvE GCWers is pretty infuriating.

While you may not agree with my opinion,you shouldn'tinsult me. That's just low-class and serves no purpose in this thread.

And the way YOU insult other PvE players by belittling thier prefered playstyle is any better? While I agree it is a bit harsh, I think it is quite accurate. All the PvPrs are quite nazi-like in trying to preserve the GCW for thier playstyle and trying to shout down anyone else thatwishes a differentway in playing the GCW in this game.

And stop bringing up the damn manual. Its crap and you know it. There is a GCW PvE system... I play it every damn day. I don't care that much what you do with TEF...as I said I actually like your ideas. Just dont rob me of my current ability to come home after a long day at work and mindlessly fight storm troopers while roleplaying a little with my friends.

Your "PvE" system is what, running factional destroy/delivery missions? While you may assume all you want, those missions generate TEF for a reason. In fact almosteverything youdo will generate a TEFfor a reason,and that reason is because you have joined into a PvP system.

And the only reason that TEF's were introduced into the game was to give an alternative from PvP in playing the GCW, while giving a mechanic for preserving the PvP players "immersion" if they see a PvE player kill a Faction NPC. It only makes sense to stop catering to the PvP players in this game thjat only make up a fraction of a percent of the over all player population.

And while the manual may be "crap" to you, it isn't to me. The "crap" manual they released, was thePrima SWG Strategy Guide...the only accurate thing in that was the maps and 98% of the trainer locations.

It isnt crap to you because its outdated rules for this game support only a extremely small minority in this game. By the very lack of participation in the Overt Faction, logic argues that if the Devs are to make this game more open to the majority of the playerbase, they need to start allowing more of an PvE presence in this game.

I fail to see why you're so irate to be honest. You want to roleplay with friends and mindlessly fight stormtroopers? At what point can you not do that in this game? As long as you understand and accept that you will receive TEF from your actions if you join a side of a factional war, what is the problem exactly? Is it that you want to mindlessly fight stormtroopers in a enviornment where nobody else in the world can interfere? If that's the case, you're simply in the wrong game. This is an MMO...it's not a Gamecube "four player party game" (I know that sounds offensive, I apologize. That isn't my intent.)

Yes it IS offensive because you, as with the usual PvP tactic, infer that the only REAL way players can interact in a MMO is when they fight against other player, and completely ignore the fact that the vast majority of MMO player like to play WITH other players. Your inference that if one doesnt like PvP, and thus donot like to play a MMO and should go play a X-box or Gamecube is so condecending its PATHETIC.

There are literally thousands of players on the servers and they're playing in the same envoirnment as you are...so that makes it pretty hard for you to just pick a spot and kill enemy targets. In this game, there are and has to be consequences for involving yourself in a war-based system.

And NOTHING says that consequence could not be a PvE one.

And the consequence is, of course, a TEF. It's no big deal really, you just keep your eye open while the TEF runs out.

And there is nothing wrong about talking about alternatives to TEF's as an viable consequence in this game.

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Again, don't take offense at any of this...it's not like I was trying to attack anyone at all.

Yea, right.

Message Edited by Limbonik on 07-13-2004 04:06 PM

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silversaber wrote:

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Limbonik wrote:

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damocles88 wrote:

While I respect highly your ideas on TEF, your BS, nazi attitude towards PvE GCWers is pretty infuriating.

While you may not agree with my opinion,you shouldn'tinsult me. That's just low-class and serves no purpose in this thread.

And the way YOU insult other PvE players by belittling thier prefered playstyle is any better? While I agree it is a bit harsh, I think it is quite accurate. All the PvPrs are quite nazi-like in trying to preserve the GCW for thier playstyle and trying to shout down anyone else thatwishes a differentway in playing the GCW in this game.

And stop bringing up the damn manual. Its crap and you know it. There is a GCW PvE system... I play it every damn day. I don't care that much what you do with TEF...as I said I actually like your ideas. Just dont rob me of my current ability to come home after a long day at work and mindlessly fight storm troopers while roleplaying a little with my friends.

Your "PvE" system is what, running factional destroy/delivery missions? While you may assume all you want, those missions generate TEF for a reason. In fact almosteverything youdo will generate a TEFfor a reason,and that reason is because you have joined into a PvP system.

And the only reason that TEF's were introduced into the game was to give an alternative from PvP in playing the GCW, while giving a mechanic for preserving the PvP players "immersion" if they see a PvE player kill a Faction NPC. It only makes sense to stop catering to the PvP players in this game thjat only make up a fraction of a percent of the over all player population.

And while the manual may be "crap" to you, it isn't to me. The "crap" manual they released, was thePrima SWG Strategy Guide...the only accurate thing in that was the maps and 98% of the trainer locations.

It isnt crap to you because its outdated rules for this game support only a extremely small minority in this game. By the very lack of participation in the Overt Faction, logic argues that if the Devs are to make this game more open to the majority of the playerbase, they need to start allowing more of an PvE presence in this game.

I fail to see why you're so irate to be honest. You want to roleplay with friends and mindlessly fight stormtroopers? At what point can you not do that in this game? As long as you understand and accept that you will receive TEF from your actions if you join a side of a factional war, what is the problem exactly? Is it that you want to mindlessly fight stormtroopers in a enviornment where nobody else in the world can interfere? If that's the case, you're simply in the wrong game. This is an MMO...it's not a Gamecube "four player party game" (I know that sounds offensive, I apologize. That isn't my intent.)

Yes it IS offensive because you, as with the usual PvP tactic, infer that the only REAL way players can interact in a MMO is when they fight against other player, and completely ignore the fact that the vast majority of MMO player like to play WITH other players. Your inference that if one doesnt like PvP, and thus donot like to play a MMO and should go play a X-box or Gamecube is so condecending its PATHETIC.

There are literally thousands of players on the servers and they're playing in the same envoirnment as you are...so that makes it pretty hard for you to just pick a spot and kill enemy targets. In this game, there are and has to be consequences for involving yourself in a war-based system.

And NOTHING says that consequence could not be a PvE one.

And the consequence is, of course, a TEF. It's no big deal really, you just keep your eye open while the TEF runs out.

And there is nothing wrong about talking about alternatives to TEF's as an viable consequence in this game.

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Again, don't take offense at any of this...it's not like I was trying to attack anyone at all.

Yea, right.

Message Edited by Limbonik on 07-13-2004 04:06 PM

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You guys all sound the same to me. You guys make gross generalizations of each other, slip in a few ad hominem attacks, and then scream bloody murder when the other person does it.

We have a sort of Political Spectrum here. You have Liberals as the PvEers, who don't believe that Humans are capable of producing good unless heavily restricted and regulated by a higher governing body. And you have Conservatives who don't want "abstract" rules and regulations to restrict their playstyle.

The PvEers would have you think that the PvPers are a tiny minority. While their group is huge.

But this isn't true. I highly doubt that there are more PvEer ONLY people then there are PvPer ONLY people. Just like in real life, most people are not liberal nor conservative, but in the middle.

Thats why the TEF system needs to stay. The majority of players enjoy PvP sometimes, not ALL THE TIME, and not NEVER. The Covert system allows them to participate in the GCW, yet not become a full fledged PvPer ALL THE TIME.

To those that think participating in Covert missions forces you to PvP, techincally you are right. But realistically it doesn't play out that way. As a covert you rarely engage in PvP. At the moment there are just not enough Overts to spawn camp at rebel areas and wait for you to get a TEF. I challenge you to be a covert for a month, or even a week. And keep a journal of when you die to another player. Make sure to have a screenshot too. You'll find that you rarely ever even encounter an overt of the opposite faction.

-red

Just put recruiters in all citysor make a command, just somthing to make going overt easier..instead of a "crap i gotta go back to cornet to go overt"

Message Edited by bountyhunter133 on 07-14-2004 01:50 AM

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Thunderheart wrote:

---

uofwi92 wrote:

---

Thunderheart wrote:

This has been a really great thread and new discussions are still popping up.

---

Paulie35 wrote:
Remove TEF. If a player does not want to PvP they should not have to.

---

If we did that, it would dramatically change things. As it stands, people don't ever have to play PvP. They can remain Neutral and never have to be involved. Declaring Covert means a player primarily wants to play GCW PvE. There are certain actions that will push them to Overt status or put them at risk, but in each case, its a choice the player makes to get involved.

Should that risk not be part of the conflict? It was something that players strongly requested pre-launch.

---

I agree with this poster. I hated nothing more than when I was a noob killing stuff in the Imperial Research Facility on Naboo, just trying to level up and get some decent loot when a master Imperial would show up and wax us because we were TEF'ed. I never made the choice to fight this person, but I had to because I was killing Imp NPCs.

This does, however, create a divide between overt and the rest of the game. If you're not overt, you shouldn't be able to heal someone who is (ala gtef). I think you should be able to trade, though... /shrug

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What about the idea of tying rank to TEF's so that playing in PvE GCW content doesnt gain you a flag unless you've earned a fair amount of Faction Rank?

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