Development Cycle Archive
Thread: Should Force Sensitivity be a known path or a mysterious one? (II)
Ceerak
Sun Jul 11, 2004 9:43 am
#404
I don't think it should be random. Tell us at least how to get started on becoming Force Sensitive at the very least. 
LordKanorius
Sun Jul 11, 2004 9:46 am
#405
After reading a bit more, most people who want the path to be mysterious are more concearned about the amount of jedi that will be in the game.
But wasn't it planned (and if it was stick to it!) to have a limited number of jedi on each server?
Say you have XX slots that may be taken by players for the title dark jedi master, XX slots for players with Padawan title and so on.
If the maximum number of slots is reached, others are unable to learn that profession.
Of course this would mean that you have to be fast - or look at a 4444 guy without master forever. But as there still is XP loss for jedi, I guess this system would be quite dynamic.
And it adds a little more suspense to playing a jedi: Play good and wise and you keep your title. Make mistakes and you risk to be a 4444er for some time.
Sounds nice to me - but I admit that it has "whining target" written all over it.
But wasn't it planned (and if it was stick to it!) to have a limited number of jedi on each server?
Say you have XX slots that may be taken by players for the title dark jedi master, XX slots for players with Padawan title and so on.
If the maximum number of slots is reached, others are unable to learn that profession.
Of course this would mean that you have to be fast - or look at a 4444 guy without master forever. But as there still is XP loss for jedi, I guess this system would be quite dynamic.
And it adds a little more suspense to playing a jedi: Play good and wise and you keep your title. Make mistakes and you risk to be a 4444er for some time.
Sounds nice to me - but I admit that it has "whining target" written all over it.
majorslappy
Sun Jul 11, 2004 9:55 am
#406
Just G,
Please don't make any of these quests about "find 4 blurgg raptors." I just helped a friend go through a jedi night trial by scouring Endor for 4 hours looking for these things. What a waste of time and effort!
Seiryuu
Sun Jul 11, 2004 10:00 am
#407
It should not be too mysterious.
The last time we had total mystery surround the process we ended up with Holocrons and profession grinding. We need to know at least some details so we can comment on what is good and bad about it and so that those that did not unlock have some direction and hope.
Let's not repeat the mistakes of the past.
The last time we had total mystery surround the process we ended up with Holocrons and profession grinding. We need to know at least some details so we can comment on what is good and bad about it and so that those that did not unlock have some direction and hope.
Let's not repeat the mistakes of the past.
Himano
Sun Jul 11, 2004 10:01 am
#408
At this stage I can only paraphrase what the majority has already said: No camping random spawns & let crafters & entertainers have a fair chance at unlocking FS too!
Frohike
Sun Jul 11, 2004 10:09 am
#409
Mysterious and unknown, and maybe this for a suggestion.
Instead of getting an unlocking message immediately after you do the thing that unlocks you. Have the message wait until the next day when that person logs on. That way it will help keep the mystery. Just an idea =). And I'm not a Jedi.
RhiannonRosto
Sun Jul 11, 2004 10:32 am
#410
JustG wrote:
The question to continue discussing is this:
Should the method of becoming Force Sensitive (not the path from Force Sensitivity to Jedi) be a mysterious, unknown mechanic orone that is visible and known to everyone?
Mysterious, or at least half of it should be. Several quests worth of "path" some of which might be theme park like pointers, and others random. Here's my reasoning if you want to read it. If not you know my opinion.
Speaking from a viewpoint of strict observation. When becoming force sensitive was unknown, no one was really trying to "grind" jedi. What they were doing was going out and immersing themselves as much into the world as possible or as desireable. I saw dedicated craftsman out there building a big trade for themselves. Lots of organized hunting parties and discussion. I rather liked the game for those first 3 or 4 months.
The only pressure on SOE was making sure there were SOME jedi eventually because they dug their own grave giving timetables early on (come on guys... don't let the marketing folks con you into things like that). So you made the holocrons as hints (and maybe even simplified it to just professions - if it ever was anything more than that).
What I saw after that was months of intense grinding. I no longer had dedicated scouts and rangers to supply my armorsmith business. My hunting partners were busy grinding chef, and there were no master doctors who'd taken time to make buff packs before moving on to the next prof. From sheer boredome I did the grind myself. 6 months later enough ppl had unlocked and been disenchanted enough with jedi to build their mains back up. Also there were jaded people and wise people who simply wanted to enjoy the game their way, jedi be screwed. So the economy and availability of goods stabilized, butwith two big populations of the game opposed. Those who hate jedi and everything it's done to the game, and those who are jedi and supporters and hopefuls. It's sad to find this attitude in the game when compared to the early comraderie and fun.
I say make the system mysterious. Sure, give everyone some vague starting point, or even a mid-point, let the starting point be a mystery. Wouldn't it be a kick if after buing that AV-21 powerplant and dropping it in your inventory to give to a guildie later you get a message saying you're half way there. Wow, what was it over the last 3 months that got me half way there? Hmmmm? Or after selling that3rd specific junk kit in a specific city you get an item in your inventory along with some credits that tells you to be at a certain set of coords in 2.5 weeks to meet a shuttle to be smuggled to an instanced town in the boonies where the right set of conversation pointers gets you on a quest that'll get you through a quarter of the jedi path in a known way, then it goes unknown again.
Anyways, the biggest mistakes to the overall experience of a "off and on"power gamer are the following:
1) Introducing holocrons
2) Designing loot drops to be from targeted and predictable mobs.
3) Not enough non-combat immersion (though you're fixing this with things like the rare clothing schematics and quests).
Otherwise, I'm very happy with the game, even the jedi revamp. Though I wish you'd give a jedi 1 free death a week. It'sa bummer to have some time over the weekend to finally play your jedi, grind in seclusion for 3 hours and get load-killed, die from an accident, LD, or poor skills, and lose all or more of that xp. 200k a week is really slow for us low level jedi. But I'd be really happy with that. I could at least log out if I was feeling unlucky and play again in a week.
Cheers,
Slurpee
MilkToast
Sun Jul 11, 2004 10:34 am
#411
The method of becoming force sensitive should be known. If the game hadn't been out for a year and there weren't already thousands of force sensitive players then I would say mysterious. Also, since almost nothing is being done to improve any of the existing professions besides Jedi I think that force sensitivity should be available to any player willing to do the work.
BabyRancor
Sun Jul 11, 2004 10:36 am
#412
I'm going to copy and paste the relevant section from a post I made on the complete Jedi system.
In summary, I'm for a Known path with Unknown Specifics. In other words, everyone will know how to start the quest for Force Sensitivity(or at least the information how to will not be hidden), but the specifics for completing the quests will not be given - just a general direction.
The key element for the quests should be to get the FS hopefuls to get out and actually play the game - to participate in the content that exists rather than locking themselves away from the rest of the playerbase in a seperate series of events.
Please see the above link for my full thoughts- they have been very well-recieved by the community thus far and could spark some ideas perhaps.
Begin included post:
The journey begins...
There is one key point that should be considered. The path to Force Sensitivity has been known for months now, taking that away from the player base by instituting a new system that leaves players grasping in the dark would be met with a great deal of negativity. I believe there needs to be a starting point given and some feedback throughout to make the system fun.
I see the path beginning with a single holocron. They are already in game and not difficult to come by for experienced players (at least one quest and countless Xmas holos still remain). The player uses the holo and gets a system message saying they "feel a strange force pulling them to..." with a random planet designated. Once they travel to that planet and use the holocron again it pulls up an interface similar to the surveying window. The two buttons on the bottom are re-labeled "concentrate" and "meditate" (replacing "survey" and "sample" respectively).
The force is generated in a density map similar to that generated by radioactives (multiple high % spots) and shifts periodically. The player must travel to a spot over 85% before they are able to successfully use the "meditate" function. Meditation generates a waypoint in close proximity (same as with the code controlling treasure map waypoints) and a small natural-looking shrine graphic includinga crystal.
This bit is important both for a sense of immersion (rediscovering the ways of the Jedi from near-extinction) and to avoid having one location where prospective FS players congregate. For at least the first while, the FS quests will be very popular - if thereare only a few places that they go (Jedi shrines, etc) there will be out-of-the-way spots in the galaxy that will be busier than Coronet. Besides being completely non-immersive, the prospect for grief (covert detectors placed in a ring around the shrine for instance) is high. This method personalizes the quest, and spreads out the applicants across planets and locations (which shift periodically).
Using the shrine brings up a welcome dialogue from a disembodied voice - promising training and knowledge of the force. The player is then offered a choice as to which FStree they want to concentrate on.
In this proposal only one of the four FS trees can be active at one time. If a player is interested in Combat Mastery, all Jedi XP they earn goes toward progress in that tree.This allows the different trees to have their own method of progression, as well as their own difficulty weighted for perceived utility of the bonuses (the crafting tree will be highly desired and provide a huge return on investment - and therefore should be more difficult to obtain). Ideally each tree would have it's own type of "Jedi XP" to completely separate them and prevent exploit of using an easier tree to gain XP that transfers to a more difficult tree.
EDIT - When this system was described, the FS experimentation tree was supposed to grant two additional experimentation points. This is not the case anymore, thus the FS experimentationline is not going to be that useful. For the record, I think this line should grant additional experimentation points but not add to points gained from skill tapes. It would provide another method of leveling the playing field - either spend the money required to get the tapes, or spend the time required to complete the quests.
Once a FS tree is chosen, the shrine indicates that a quest must be completed before the training can be started. Since there are 4 trees, prior to starting each tree the player must complete one of the Hero of Tatooine Quests. I understand that you get both a badge and a physical item for completing the quests, so the item could be drag/dropped onto the shrine (which must be found again using the random planet / surveying interface process again - except that the holocron could be replaced by the crystal from the shrine as an indicator of progress).
Once a given tree is unlocked it remains so, and the shrine provides a hint as to how to obtain the required XP:
Combat Prowess
You must seek out the most dangerous creatures to understand how the Force may be your ally in combat
This is the place where the laundry list of mobs belongs, and it doesn't need to be explicitlygiven to the player. For example, a hidden table could be constructed that weights XP value based on mob difficulty and rarity:
- Recluse Gurk King - 1000 XP
- Acklay - 3000 XP
- Death Watch Overlord - 10,000 XP
- etc. (the list doesn't need to be exhaustive - perhaps 20 or 30 entries)
For each mob killed the amount of XP is added silently to a total (the value is not accessable to the player). For training ("further enlightenment") the player must track down their shrine again and see if they've qualified.
This way the player has a means of feedback, but it's not spoon-fed to them.
At the shrine - the player always has the option of refocusing their efforts on another tree. This freezes the skills in the previous tree and all XP earned there. After doing the qualifiying Hero quest, the player is then given a hint as to how to progress in the new tree.
Crafting Mastery
To understand how inspiration and artistry come from the Force you must create the most difficult and rare objects in the Galaxy
Similar laundry list of items weighted for XP by rarity and difficulty. These are all creations from limited use loot drop schematics (DXR-6b, AV-21, RIS armour, crafting aprons,Mandalorian armour and wine, the jetpack, etc. The resulting items are drag-and-dropped onto the shrine where they are checked for presence on thelist and the creator name is checked for matching to the present character's name (to prevent simply buying the items). If both variables are valid the item is consumed and XP awarded (silently) - if not the item is kept in the player's inventory and an "invalid" message is displayed.
The XP awarded is weighted based on the rarity of the schematic and the rarity of loot components required. For instance, the AV-21 schematic is quite common and easy to get - however the powerplant is distinctly less so and so the XP awarded needs to be adjusted accordingly. This can go all the way up to Mandalorian armour at the top of the scale.
Other means of awarding XP (for the other trees)
- Charity: a few NPCs are placed in the galaxy that award specific little trinkets (decorations - nothing with tangible game effect) in exchange for large sums of money. Provided the trinkets are cool and unique enough this would also provide a money sink for the exceptionally rich even if they're not interested in FS. The trinkets could then be turned over to the shrine in exchange for XP.
- Teaching: when a given tree is active, every instance of training (earning Apprentice XP) also provides a small amount of Jedi XP. Greater amounts of Jedi XP are awarded the higher up the trees the skill trained is. Since this can be macro'd in severalways, XP gain would have to be carefully evaluated.
- Quest items: there are many quests in the galaxy that are one-time only and award neat little decorations (food rewards from Mos Taike for instance). These decorations could be turned over to the shrine for XP gain.
- Badges: certain badges could qualify for a one-time XP gain. Things like the Explorer badges (Journeyman Explorer etc, not the individual POI badges), the various CSR badges andthe Warren and Corvette badges could all qualify for Jedi XP gain.
Some of these could be non-tree specific, in that they always provide XP no matter which tree is active (the teaching one for instance).
This way each tree is unique in it's progression, and requires the player to experience many types of existing content. It also forces a character to give away important and valuable items (Mandalorian armour for instance) in pursuit of their goal of Force Sensitivity (very in keeping with the Jedi mythos).
Mellissandria
Sun Jul 11, 2004 10:41 am
#413
I've just scanned thru the first couple of pages, but so far, Princess Chibi has the most elegant of solutions....however, this might necessate creating a new job in the SWG admin rank, that of Admin. Which is not a bad thing. The Force Admin (who should be either taken from the CSR ranks or QA ranks, at first anyway) or admins could first go over bios once they get a system message that so and so has taken the first steps to Force sensitivity, see if there is anything they can use there. That would encourage creative bio writing among us...It's a tactic used in LARPs, which I used to do a bit. Use the info to help create or influence the path that the Force candidate must take. Have some fun with it. Make parts of it totally random. (I would say, make it so only a certain number of characters generated have the capablity of force sensitivity-except then that might make customers angry...)
In other words, have several parts to this, and while there might be sense to all of it, make so that it will take a nice long time for people to figure it all out...
In some instances, they get the message thru the server. In others, maybe a character from one of the movies (not Yoda, but maybe Mace or a minor character in the first three movies, or maybe from one of the early books, e.g. Splinter of the Mind's Eye) shows up having searched long and wide for this person....(and being run by an admin, of course
. But it should never happen the same way twice.....
. But it should never happen the same way twice.....As I have said, you could hire CSRs or QA to be Admin at first. If you hire say someone who has done admin work on a mush or mud, make sure they have good references from players there as well as from other admin...like everything else, there are good mudgods and bad mudgods..and the bad ones could be worse than say setting a PVP guild in front of a clone center to grief...Ditto if you want to elevate a player to this spot. They should have references, they should have logged time on Test Center or its varients, and they should be helpers as well as players. It need not be a paid position, but t'would be wise.
(I would love to try for such a position myself...I am a parttime wiz on a Muck (a variant of a mush or Mud)...but at the moment, I have so many health issues or I would volunteer without pay! I've also done LARP in NERO Atlanta and SOLAR, so I think I know what I am talking about. I would like to nominate Princess Chibi for the first Admin post, though She sounds like she knows what she is talking about....)
She sounds like she knows what she is talking about....)
SpaceCobra
Sun Jul 11, 2004 10:45 am
#414
I think that the path should be mysterious and challenging (as opposed to difficult). Sure, once several people have figured it out, it will be all over the net, but I think the mysterious path will add a better flavor to it.
As to challenging, I think that it should be something that feels like a great effort worthy of the reward at the end. I think it should be something that someone can accomplish alone. I don't think that it is quite within the feel of what a jedi quest should be (or even very fair, for that matter) to have the quest require components that are impossible to attain without the aid of a large group or raiding party. Really, what is wrong with creating a quest of this sort that can be completed by a non-combatant? Of course, that presents the developers with the challenge of coming up with such a quest.
As it is, I am presented with the dilemna of whether I should keep my current character, who I don't have plans to become a jedi with, complete the force sensitivity quest, and then create a new character with my opened second slot that I do want to become a jedi, and therefore will have to do the quest all over again, or do I want to give away all my stuff, create my future jedi character, do the quest with that character, and then recreate my current character and still start all over again.
I'm not sure which would take more effort, but I guess in the end, I would have more accomplished with the first option (two force sensitive characters).
As to challenging, I think that it should be something that feels like a great effort worthy of the reward at the end. I think it should be something that someone can accomplish alone. I don't think that it is quite within the feel of what a jedi quest should be (or even very fair, for that matter) to have the quest require components that are impossible to attain without the aid of a large group or raiding party. Really, what is wrong with creating a quest of this sort that can be completed by a non-combatant? Of course, that presents the developers with the challenge of coming up with such a quest.
As it is, I am presented with the dilemna of whether I should keep my current character, who I don't have plans to become a jedi with, complete the force sensitivity quest, and then create a new character with my opened second slot that I do want to become a jedi, and therefore will have to do the quest all over again, or do I want to give away all my stuff, create my future jedi character, do the quest with that character, and then recreate my current character and still start all over again.
I'm not sure which would take more effort, but I guess in the end, I would have more accomplished with the first option (two force sensitive characters).
BaronPwent
Sun Jul 11, 2004 10:55 am
#415
This is certainly a highly debatable issue. Personally, I don't think force sensitivity should be known or unknown. There needs to be a delicate balance between the two.
Force sensitive skills should be acquired as a result of normal game play. Essentially, a force sensitivity event thatis triggered as a player accomplishs varies things. Once a player has satisfied some condition, a window pops up telling the player they feel enlightened, or something to that effect, and have qualified for a new force sensitive skill which they may select immediately. There could be a variety of conditions which in themselves could vary slightly from player to player.
For example, masteringprofessions - A player could be designated a randomly selected series that determines how many profs a player must master before gaining a new box of force sensitivity. Take the progression- 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21. A player with this series would be able of gaining 7 boxes of force sensitivity after mastering 21 profs. Another player could be designated the progression - 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32. This player would only be able to gain 6 boxes of force sensitivity by master professions.
Another condition for gaining a box of force sensitivity could be simply collecting badges. Numeric progressions could be used to determine how many badges are needed for this as well. Perhaps something like - 5, 10, 15, 25, 40, 65, 105 or 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64.
Other conditions could include - being a resident of a city for a random period of time, being a member of a PA for a random period of time, participating in the GCW (perhaps a numeric progression for faction rank).
Force sensitivity should not be simply a string of quests to be undertaken, it should simply develop as a player experiences more and more of the game. Force sensitivity should very much be a path of inner discovery. As opposed to the path from FS to Jedi where there is someone guiding and instructing you in the path of the jedi, there shouldn't be someone instructing you or guidingthe jouney to being fully force sensitive.
The path to becoming force sensitive should be a result of normal game play. In this way, the journey to force sensitivity will be both known and unknown. Known in the sense that players will know that just by playing the game they will eventually find their way to force sensitivity. Unknown in the sense that a player won't know preciously what or how much they must do to gain force sensitivity.
Baronis
Sun Jul 11, 2004 11:04 am
#416
Should Force Sensitivity be a known path or a mysterious one? Simple. It should be known. The focus should be more on making the path interesting and dynamic.....something that is a fun and enjoyable experience. And if the content is worthwhile, why should it be hidden? Quests dont have to be mysterious to be fun. Theres nothing more frustrating than searching and searching for something, and never being able to find it.