Development Cycle Archive
Thread: Roundtable Discussion: GCW and TEFs
Kade_Deveron wrote:
Fundamentally, the covert system is to the detriment of Star Wars Galaxies. The GCW, on all fronts, is dying. Combat imbalances, jedi, lack of immersion, and the covert system all hurt the GCW. Covert status grealtly hurts motivational factors for participating in the GCW. It allows players to gather faction with a highly limited risk for attack by enemy players. Covert/Overt status should be removed and replaced with an on duty/off duty model. When off duty players retain rank and faction standing but are functionally neutral. They cannot attack factioned players or NPCs, cannot use faction perks, etc.... When on duty, players are "overt". On Duty players who engage in combat cant enter buildings, as per the current system. On duty players who die cannot engage in PvP for x number of minutes after their death to avoid clone wars. This would solve a ton of TEF problems and increase participation in the GCW.
Yahoo! You go Kade!
Thats the way to stick it to the PvE players!
Tell them to goto hell! You go boy!
-Maltomix wrote:
I agree, TEF along with GTEF semantic should be removed complety -- Keep the PvE content seperate from the PvP content.
You'll probably ask how tokeep them seperate? well I would like to see the Dark Age of Camelot (DAOC)approach where you have the PvE realm andyouhave a PvP realm. In DAOC, when a person wants to PvP, he goes to aNPC that ports that PC into a realm where its open PvP against a differentrealm. No Overt status, No Covert status, None of that in betweenCovert/Overtand GTEF crap. No Griefing.
Yeah there are battlefields in swgbut ..... there is novalueor reason for people to go to empty battlefields.
In DAOC, there are castle that you can take within the PvPrealm that haverealm items thatgivebonuses to the realms. It would be neat tohave something similar toDAOC PvP.There are so many advantages to moving this system realm PvP system that SWG universe will fit in nicely.
One of the major problem I see with SWG PvP, there is no "incentive" to PvP.
Ranks? ....... just a title
Armor and Weapons ? ....... are a joke compare to player made equipment
funiture ? .... heh
NPC pets? ....... they are dead in less than 10 secs in a PvP fight
Also a person from the same faction shouldn't be abe to hurt the person in the same faction.
I.E. rebel BH hunting rebel Jedi and so forth.
If a realm PvP solution ever reach the table, I would like to see 3 factions ... Rebel, Imperial, BlackSun/Jabba/Valarian ( the thug faction )
Just think of how much trouble you can save by keeping the PvP code and the PvE code seperate
This make perfect sense. Keep the PvE and PvP separate. If you want to PvP, you go to a PvP zone and not have to worry about flags and timers and all the bull crap with healing and trading.
Also I would like to see battlefield movie recarnation in the above system. Hoth battle, Yavin battle ... oooo the list can go on.
Again, silver, you make no real arguments, just "I don't like! I don't like!". People have made some incredibly valid points and all you can say is, "I don't like!"
All you have shown is that you do not want to have consequences for your actions. You simply have no idea how this works realistically in game and it shows.
This is a game about War. If you would perfer a single-faction game, as you say, you will never find it here.
I'm sorry your fear has led to such stereotypes of other players - which, I have to confess, I don't see how you can have an opinion on them if you never, ever PvP.
You have made a lot of crass generalizations in this thread that simply are not true - if only because the "serious" PvP players you are so terrified of encountering with a TEF left SWG long ago.
You fail to see how this is all about choice - you make choices in this game, of which faction is one. The consequences and benefits are clearly outlined. You say you want to play wherever you want whenever you want - well, this ain't Burger King.
It just sounds like you don't like the core-systems of SWG; I don't care for the core systems of other games, that's why I play this one. I make that choice. You continue to make the choice to play SWG, a game based around war, yet you profess you want no consequences. My point above as to my prefered "solo" playstyle, is the same as your "non-PvP" playstyle - both require you to make a choice in this game. It's not apples/oranges, it's choice/consequence. You refuse to take responsibility for your own playstyle, and continually ignore the options you have.
You clearly want a very different game than SWG is intended to be.
AO
Thunderheart wrote:
This has been a really great thread and new discussions are still popping up.
Paulie35 wrote:
Remove TEF. If a player does not want to PvP they should not have to.
If we did that, it would dramatically change things. As it stands, people don't everhave to play PvP. They can remain Neutral and never have to be involved. Declaring Covert means a player primarily wants to play GCW PvE. There are certain actions that will push them to Overt status or put them at risk, but in each case, its a choice the player makes to get involved.
Should that risk not be part of the conflict? It was something that players strongly requested pre-launch.
You mean like being able to sign in without dying. I had to log out the other day in Bestine due to a thunderstorm in my area. When I logged back in I was right by a stormtrooper as a corpse. The combat thread told the story, while I was logging in I was scanned, before I even saw the initial screen an Imp had wandered by, incapped and DBed me and was laughing at the unarmed, unarmored wookie that he had killed. Yes, I know I could choose not to carry any sliced weapon... I could also choose not be be a covert faction. But I like doing these things.
The other problem we are having is in the player city I am involved with. We have nothing that we can do to people that violate a no attacking policy that all of the citizens (well at least most) have agreed to. We want to be an open city, but everytime anyone with a TEF moves past one house an overt Imp CM steps out tosses his 96m 1000 hit per second mind poison and kills any rebel that happens in the area. Now rebels from outside the city have started attacking any Imp that is overt in our town. The citizens should be able to declare that they are not for the GCW in the town, but there is no way to enforce this with the castration of the city militia.
These types of issues have to be addressed.
silversaber wrote:
-SanGreal- wrote:
Get rid of Coverts.
Seriosly, I haven't PVPed in 9 or 10 months, but its a stupid system. Its a war for (insert deity)'s sake. If you decide to choose sides you need to be open to attack from the opposite side at all times. It is disgusting to see rebels and imperials mingling and exchanging weapons like they're good friends. The game has a neutral faction for a reason.
Also Audio, if I dont argue for what I whink is fun in this game, then only (insert adjective) like this get heard then this game really goes to hell in a handbasket.
Again, your own myopic opinion.
Many of us want MORE consequences.
I'd be totally fine with the above scenario - it is a war, something you seem to keep forgetting.
Anything to keep this game from going further into "The Sims Online" territory it seems to be heading in in terms of action/consequences that you are trying to turn this into.
Faction needs to mean MORE, not less - I'd rather err on the side of dynamic excitement than checkers.
AO
Just make two different types of TEF states, one for PvE and one for PvP. Let NPCs attack you if you attack an NPC, let players and NPCs both attack you if you attack a player.
PvE factional actions should not give you a PvP TEF. I don't care one bit if you feel you should be able to attack me because I cut down a stormtrooper in front of you, it's PvE content. If I have +5000 Janta faction, that doesn't give me the right to attack a player who kills a Janta in front of me. Don't kid yourselves, the people who say they should be able to attack anyone who kills a factional NPC are more interested in getting easy kills than in immersion.
PvP should be a battle of overts, not a group of coverts hiding behind one overt. So eliminate the concept of a temporary flag for PvP. If you attack another player you've chosen to PvP and should be made overt, not temporarily but just as if you declared overt. Let any covert attack any overt of the opposite faction (solving the problem of not being able to defend your friends), but force them overt for doing so. They still get one free shot, but that's all they get, then they're overt.
To prevent problems with people abusing the system in order to destroy faction bases, make this overt state unofficial for the first 45 minutes or until they officially declare. In other words, replace the current PvP TEF with a 45 minute TEF-like declared state followed by overtness. Additionally, make player-owned factional items and pets considered part of the PvP TEF system. If you're attacking a player's structures you should be subject to the same rules as if you attacked the player.
There would of course need to be safeguards to provent accidentally making yourself overt. All that's really needed is a dialogue box. If you can give a message that it's unwise to heal someone of the opposite faction, you should be able to get a warning about the consequences of healing someone of the same faction (and giving you the chance to back out). Even a simple toggle in the options menu for "avoid PvP actions" would work.
Thunderheart wrote:
fatgit wrote:
I agree that covert players SHOULD get a TEF for factional PvE.
However, simply trading with an overt will get you a TEF, this seems to be a bit over the top.
It heavily depends on what you are trading. Certain things that are traded can have a serious impact on the game. To flag each item and do an item check every time a player traded something to another player would give the system an aneurysm. Instead, the prevention measures for the potential combat grief falls on factional status. The side effect certainly is the pain of the "trade TEF" and I am pushing for that to be included in the GCW revamp.
instead of TEF and groupTEF, why not change it so only overt people can engage in PvP or the GCW.
1) if you're in a group with an overt person, and they start getting attacked by another overt person of a different faction, theres nothing you can do about it.
2) faction scanners mark you as "overt", you decay to nonovert status in five minutes.
3) you cannot trade with an overt person if you are covert.
4) you cannot buff or be buffed by an overt person if you are covert.
i find groupTEF the scourge of the earth, and i cant imagine a situation in game that wouldn't be improved by its removal.
Thunderheart wrote:
What about the idea of tying rank to TEF's so that playing in PvE GCW content doesnt gain you a flag unless you've earned a fair amount of Faction Rank?
- Rebel Combatant (Overt Rebel)-- can attack and be attacked by known Imperials. These individuals are permanantly flagged.
- Rebel Sympathizer (Covert Rebel)-- can heal and trade with Rebels. These actions gain a VERY short TEF.
- Mercenary (Overt Independent) -- can attack and be attacked by either Rebels or Imperials. These players have a Longer TEF.
- Non-Combatants(Covert Independent) -- can heal and trade with either Imperials or Rebels. These actions gain a VERY short TEF.
- Civilian (Neutral) -- No involvement in the GCW. These characters can not heal or trade with flagged players.
- Imperial Combatant (Overt Imperial)-- can attack and be attacked by known Rebels. These individuals are permanantly flagged.
- Imperial Supporter (Covert Imperial)-- can heal and trade with Imperials. These actions gain a VERY short TEF.
The key here, (IMHO) is the length of the TEF. It is important that I be able to attack the allies of my enemies, in order to prevent endless buffing/healing. However, once the doctor has ceased his involvement it should be relatively easy forhim to blend in with the masses. The shorter TEF would work well in the Crackdown, as well. With a war going on, a rebel corporal isn't likely to be public enemy #1 for much longer than he or she is in the sight of the Imps. A mercenary who has taken out a trooper or two is likely to find himself on the Galaxies Most Wanted list for much longer.
Tam Darkfell (Intrepid/Infinity)
AudioOrgana wrote:
/sigh
Again, silver, you make no real arguments, just "I don't like! I don't like!". People have made some incredibly valid points and all you can say is, "I don't like!"
Just because my arguements are for something different than you like, they are not "Valid"? aw cmon! thats a load of BS and you know it!
All you have shown is that you do not want to have consequences for your actions. You simply have no idea how this works realistically in game and it shows.
I have NEVER said I didnt want any consequences for my actions! I accept PvE consequences quite readily. Its PvP I reject utterly.
This is a game about War. If you would perfer a single-faction game, as you say, you will never find it here.
And there are no PvE games of War? How myoptic of you. And about never finding it here, only time will tell. Nothing is written in stone in these games, and with perserverence I hope I will gain success.
I'm sorry your fear has led to such stereotypes of other players - which, I have to confess, I don't see how you can have an opinion on them if you never, ever PvP.
Again you come to the flawed conclusion that my objections to PvP is fear and you always will, I guess. And I also never said I didnt PvP in the past. Where else do you think I got my utter distaste for it from?
You have made a lot of crass generalizations in this thread that simply are not true - if only because the "serious" PvP players you are so terrified of encountering with a TEF left SWG long ago.
Not crass at all. All from bitter past experiences.
You fail to see how this is all about choice - you make choices in this game, of which faction is one. The consequences and benefits are clearly outlined. You say you want to play wherever you want whenever you want - well, this ain't Burger King.
And clearly the current choices suck major for a PvE player. Its a all-or-nothing choice, which isnt a choice at all. And while this isnt Burger King, it IS aconsumer oriented service, for which players like myself have a voice in what is fun in this game. A voice that will be one of a growing multitude as more and more players schaff at the restrictions the current system imposes.
It just sounds like you don't like the core-systems of SWG;
No, I only dont like ONE core system, or the core attutude that PvP must be an absolute requirement in the GCW. The rest of the game I like just fine.
I don't care for the core systems of other games, that's why I play this one. I make that choice. You continue to make the choice to play SWG, a game based around war, yet you profess you want no consequences.
And again you seem to only count PvP as the only valid "Consequence" in this game. I can accept PvE consequences quite readily.
My point above as to my prefered "solo" playstyle, is the same as your "non-PvP" playstyle - both require you to make a choice in this game. It's not apples/oranges, it's choice/consequence. You refuse to take responsibility for your own playstyle, and continually ignore the options you have.
Actually they ARE apples and oranges. You can Play solo in PvP or PvE. Its not suggested, but its possible. But you cannot play in the GCW without PvP. In solo, you have choices. In the GCW, one doesnt.
You clearly want a very different game than SWG is intended to be.
Actually all I want is slightly different where EVERYONE can have fun in the GCW, not just the PvP minority.
AO
NiallMcHendrick wrote:
Thunderheart wrote:
What about the idea of tying rank to TEF's so that playing in PvE GCW content doesnt gain you a flag unless you've earned a fair amount of Faction Rank?No way. The reason TEFs were hashed out the way they were (correctly IMO) was so that an Overt Imperial that is fighting for the Empire can react to seeing some Rebel shooting up an Imperial camp or base or stormtrooper. TEFs are one of the great parts of this game. How realistic would it be if you were Overt and you couldn't react to the GCW happening right in front of you? Only Overts have a problem with GTEFs (which needs fixing) and PvE'ers that understand the rules have nothing to fear. If you want to hunt, hunt animals or Hutts or Tuskens or whatever. If you hit a Stormtrooper you temporarily have the entire Empire gunning for you. How great is that? Did Luke have low faction and get away with shooting Stormtroopers? Or was it because he was grouped with Leia? Gimme a break. You shoot one, all of them shoot back.(Yeah, I'm a Rebel PvE'er, and I think TEFs are awesome.)
I agree with this 100%. If you shoot imperials you should get a TEF and if you're waving your lightsaber around you sould also get a TEF because Vader will be coming for you.