Development Cycle Archive

"The ranger community has prepared a new concept, "The Outdoorsman," "

For everyone not familiar with the proposal,there is a link in my signature.

What defines theRanger role in combat?

PVP - Now it is strictly their chosen combat profession.

PVE - Now it is chosen combat ability, minor bonuses(that apply to ranged only) and minor use from traps.

What basic combat elements should they possess?

The ability to do effective recon in PVP. The ability to be the bane of creatures great and small(including CH pets. If these skills are good enough then this will work to balance the CH instead of possible power down changes.)

What offensive abilities? Traps being the only direct one. Bonuses to chosen combat profession for creature hunting. Slightly higher than normal CH pet use to show the connection to nature.

What defensive abilities? Stealth/hiding(could also be offensive). Defences for creatures above normal to add to other bonuses already held by the character.

What unique abilities? Tracking more useful, track spawn points maybe or forcing spawns, high level multi function traps. Ability to harvest multiple resources off one animal. Ability to capture babies. Ability to run faster, burst run longer, swim faster(maybe should apply to scout since the last description I read said a master of their envorornment.)

Should add what advantage or asset in group combat? Creature crowd control, tracking, healing camps, creature information

How could/should they interact with other professions?

What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants? Crowd control for multiple creatures, bonus for harvesting

What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War? Recon, healing outposts, and the antitheses of the CH.

All of these exist in the "Outdoorsman" and the "SoTP" listed in NRass Signature. These would be two good places to get this information as we have been going over these things for a long time and the SoTP has evolved from months of debating. The "Outdoorsman" is a culmination of these questions, which we have thought about, and the "SoTP".

Thank You for your time!

@#$@#@#% OK sorry for cussing but I just spen about 30 minutes writing up answers, and when I hit submit it asked me to log in again, and of course it was all lost.

So I'm just going to say this. Go read NRaas post on ranger forum that is sticky at top calle The Outdoorsman. The ranger community has been working for the last couple of weeks on our vision of the ranger as a whole. In there are answers to your questions about combat and the GCW in particular. Also, check out my post about the logic behind keeping /conceal vs NPC. It is on topic because a lot of the ranger, and even for combat, is about stealth. And that is exactly what I talk about in that post.

Iwould also like to express my support for the Ranger community's Outdoorsman Proposal compiled by NRaas. If you want to know how I think Ranger should fit into combat and into the game in general, that document is the answer. Ranger should be a support profession enhancing wilderness survival skillsand combat skills to make us the ultimate outdoorsman. Rangers should be masters of stealth, hunting creatures, making camps, and making traps. In short, they should be the masters ofthe wild. In the city they would not have much use. Thank you for taking the time to ask our opinions.

ps - Thunderheart, until they fix the dev tracker, do you think you could use Q-3PO's (or someone else's) account to post? You couldinclude a couple lines at the end ofyour postsso theywould say that you are actually TH and you are just usinga differentaccount until the dev tracker is fixed for you. This would save a lot of headache locating your posts. Thanks.

What defines theRanger role in combat?

I see Ranger as more of a support not combat class. When tagged and paired with the proper combat classes it should enhance that combat class greatly. For example a Ranger/Rifleman should be the ultimate sniper in both PVE and PVP. A Ranger/Swordsman should be the ranging low tech tribesman whose knowledge of the land and skill of the sword make him just as dangerous as a man with a blaster.

What basic combat elements should they possess?

Again no direct combat elements should be present but skills and abilities directly applicable to enhancing other more direct combat classes. The idea of making a character template is normally you take a direct combat class and supplement it with a supporting class like medic or in this case Ranger.

What offensive abilities?

While not a direct combat class I would say that the bonuses to hit creatures and maybe even some creature defense should be applicable.

What defensive abilities?

See above. Also defenses could also be given for certain states like Stun...a Ranger even stunned would know how to act on instinct (Ranger's being a slight bit feral by nature due to their attunement with nature) thus get stun defenses. Just an example.

What unique abilities?

Basically enhance what they already have and take some skills and abilities into a new light and have them apply more directly when needed to direct combat classes. Most imprortantly Rangers should not only be good about finding people and creatures but finding places...they should be the prime explorers or SWG.

Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?

Camps should be made to be highly desireable. Rangers should have the ability to be very very competent fighters thus for that somewhat attractive to group with. Add in their tracking ability and working safe havens in the form of high end camps (camps still need more functionalities though) and who wouldnt want a Ranger around.

How could/should they interact with other professions?

Rangers should be a strong support profession on it's own. One of the strongest considering it takes as much to get as Doctor (skill point wise). Rangers should be the favorites of tailors and armoursmiths (as they get the most hide and bone or have the potential too). They should need decent armour and weapons of course as most will have Elite combat classes also. While squad leaders should lead groups...Rangers should actually be "in the lead" and thus be given abilities and skills where that would make sense.

What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?

Normal dependencies with respects to buying goods and such. Rangers should be fairly self sufficient with regards to surviving in the game. That means that their skills in Ranger should help them avoid PVE confrontations in which their Combat skills are less than adequate.In PVP without the proper care and setup (camo, location, range, etc etc) they should be about as strong as a normal Elite Combat class but give them time to setup or fight them on thier terms...and they should be very dangerous.

What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?

They should go out and find bases. Period. Or locales for new bases. Heck let them see the same screen that you get when you are going to place a deed so they can see the "lay" of the land and find defensible spots for bases and such...who knows the sky is the limit. Again i feel this is mainly a support role with the potential to be very strong with the right dedicated combat class.

Moving forward make some decisions and see them through. Be dogged in your pursuit of this game and the improvements that can and will happen. Make this something special.

What defines the Ranger role in combat?

A Ranger's role in combat is usually a Tracker of combatants. One should be able to find opposing faction members if Overt when Tracking as well as sort according to distances. Further combat roles are pretty much well defined by NRaas, the Correspondent. But my main combat concerns aren't from a Ranger standpoint as my hybrid class is Pistoleer.

What basic combat elements should they possess?

Definite ability to take down animals with more skill and accuracy than anyone else.

What offensive abilities?

Along with the previous, our offensive deserves to be of power against animals in perhaps a special ability other than the creature-to-hit bonuses like a special shot or at least a way in which we use traps.

What defensive abilities?

Our defense is mainly that of traps, advanced traps. And to cut short the things I don't know, the Correspondent of Rangers has this well covered with detail. I support him there.

Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?

Advantage to others harvesting amounts, perhaps their ability to out run an animal if chased? Bound to have something of the sort rub off while fighting along side a Master, at least. Perhaps our Rescue could work almost SL-like in that it makes everyone attack the one animal who has singled out someone. Like a /rescuegroup command to save all the tabbing and just hit the one runner's target.

How could/should they interact with other professions?

Our meat interaction is good usually. Much money in all of that, economically. As well as in Hide, rarely as much in Bone. Less need for it I suppose, unless Avian. We shouldn't have to interact too frequently as we live out in the wilds, but we could always have mini terminals, garages, things like that attached to our camps. I believe the Correspondent also covers this area quite well. heh.. We just don't interact with other combatives much, that's one area that could use improvement..Usually crafters, but I can see why.

What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?

We probably can't be too "ultimate" when fighting animals and should need either an elite combat class with our own skills or a person with them to be of use. We should be the creature harvester group type, I'd think. Our dependency is to start groups to round up resources. Like a temporary small harvest ability to those without scout? Or just an advantage when doing so. But all their meat goes to us..heh. Perhaps that's asking a bit much though, combatively.

What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?

000000000000000000Dyrwen Sy-X
000000000000000000
000000000000000000Imperial Master Ranger.
000000000000000000Meat Manager
000000000000000000Hide Heretic.
000000000000000000Bone Busybody.
000000000000000000
000000000000000000General PAC Man 
000000000000000000Penny Arcade Clan 
000000000000000000

What defines theRanger role in combat?

I believe the ranger shouldhave a support role in combat at least comparable to what combat medic can do. Applying states is not enough when bounty hunters can apply 2 or 3 states in ONE shot at master. The same amount of statesusing traps would be time intensive when it came to battles.

What basic combat elements should they possess? / What offensive abilities?

Traps, as a ranger specific weapon/grenade should be able to add bleeds or something to that effect. Temporary max health disabilities (like making a succesful trap allow a creature to lose 10-15% of it's max HAM for 10 seconds or so) would also make for more useful trapping skills. As it it scouts have the only traps that mean anything.

What defensive abilities?

Camps should be a defensive ability. They should repel all but the meanest of creatures (Not NPCS) Make it so that you can't camp wile Aggro'ed and you solve the problem of allowing people to make instant shield fortresses. They should provide a BONUS to defensive abilities while in them. Make them NOT disband if the ranger is defending. They can be used as a forward fighting point.

What unique abilities?

Conceal Should work against NPCs. It should last MUCH longer than it does now for the resources spent. I would say by an order of 2 or 3 times longer. If broken, it should not be removed as a state. Maybe the timer can be accelerated depending on how much combat has been entered into.

Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?

Again camps are the ranger's group asset.They can be used as a staging ground forpulling higher levelcreatures so that the group can FIGHT in the camp if facing large numbers of creatures. In combat, I belive that traps should be the support weapon. They need to be more usefull appropriate to that role.

How could/should they interact with other professions?

Make really hard to make traps, that require certain resources or cross profession components. Like some components from combat medic Poison grenades.

What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?

I have an idea about making groups withsquad leaders and a (master?) ranger in them more potent. The ranger would be able to have our 'supposed' creature to-hit bonus transfered in some way to the group through the squad leader. From a role playing stand point. It's like the ranger telling the Leader where the vulnerable spots are. Then the Squad Leader shouting orders to that effect.

What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?

I Believe that Master Rangers should have the ability to track overt Opposing faction players if they are overt. Why was Tracking players ever implemented at all,save for such a situation?

Rangers should be the ultimate recon people in GCW.

With no innate combat abilities, we should be the masters at camoflage and concealment. Snoop and poop, sneak and peak.

We should be able to observe an area undetected and report back on what we see. Our camo abilities should not make us "invisible", but we should remain undetected until we break cover, or do something stupid like get up and run. No, it wouldn't work in a city, unless we stayed in a rather large park, with bushes.

Next, we should be the antithesis of the Creature Handler. Our traps should work on pets as a counter to them in PvE. Let loose the grauls, only beware if a Ranger is there, as they get blinded, slowed, dizzied, dazzled, deafened and what all.

If the Ranger wants to go melee or ranged, it's a choice. Against creatures, we should get benefits to fighting hand to hand or ranged. Nothing outrageous, but something. After all, who else harvests torturs, rancors and sharnaffs for fun?

That's our role as I see it.

JB

---

Thunderheart wrote:

Given the basic considerations listed above, please answer the following questions:

What defines theRanger role in combat?

Currently very little. In PvP none, in PvE we have a slight advantage but not much more than any scout with their trapping tree up to level 4.

In PvP our effectiveness could be upped in several ways. one is to be the creature pet foils. If our skills that work on creatures in the wild worked on creature pets, our effectiveness would increase greatly in PvP. Traps need to affect pets, and ranger traps need to be boosted to distingush our more powerful trapping skills from other scouts. Our cammoflage skills need to affect pets and players for that matter. If a /concealed player could have a confusing effect on creatures, and make it more difficult for players to target/hit us we would have a distinct advantage in PvP. Our profession seems to revolve around creature hunting, cammoflague, and wilderness survival. It would make sense if we could apply these skills in PvP.

In PvE we are defined by our ability to track and hunt creature MOBs, but that seems to be in concept only. Our ranger traps which should make us more adept at taking down various types and sizes of creatures aren't nearly as effective as a few of the scout traps which in and of themselves don't do us justice in their ability to give us a clear advantages in PvE. We need more AoE traps as well as "premeditative" traps which we can set before battle to gain the advantage if the traps are set properly and correctly. Premeditative traps are ground based traps set to spring when the creature reaches the vicinity, lure traps that draw creatures from the pack and out of "assist" range, and tripwire or knockdown traps for creatures.

Our conceal skills which should work on NPC's no longer do after a stealth "fix".Thismakes /conceal nothing more than a /maskscent which we can apply to others and is not worth the time or resources it takes to use. Now if /conceal worked as a negative to-hit buff or even granted us some level of invisibility we would see much more use of that skill.

And it is increasingly more difficult to get any kind of practical use for our camps. competing with novice campers who just need the exp is frustrating and the actual bennefits of using camps are decreasing. Adding some mechanism to allow Rangers to set up a camp while those who need the exp can share in the exp would be very bennificial. For example, a deposit box of some sort in higher level ranger camps that allowed a scout for example place various resources or pre made camps into it. The Exp granted is then "shared" with the scout who contributed resources to the camp once it is disbanded. I am also a big fan of the modular system laid out by our wonderful correspondant NRaas in our forrum under the "Outdoorsman" sticky. (I should note I disagree with the sharing of our functionality in camps with Squad Leaders, but the overall concept is great).

What basic combat elements should they possess?

Ok so I should have read all these questions first cuz I kinda went off on that first one so I'll just repeat here that Ranger combat should revolve around creature advantages and the ability to conceal ourselves when the time is right.

What offensive abilities?

We should have a /sneakattack ability while /concealed that reflects a first attack on an opponent who can't see you until it is too late. We should be able to identify weaknesses in creatures and exploit them, not only being able to determine what weapons work best, but a sort of "critical hit" in the soft spot in the belly of a rancor. Such "critical hits" may be determined at random when using default attacks on a MOB. frequency of such a hit would be based on our creature knowledge skill.

What defensive abilities?

Our ability to conceal ourselves in combat should make it harder for us to hit. In the wilderness with propper cammo on, a ranged enemy would have a difficult time distinguishing us from the background, and thus targeting and hitting us would be difficult.

What unique abilities?

The problem with uniqueness and rangers is that almost everything a ranger can do, a sout can do too. And due to the requirement of scout in some of the more popular elete professions, this makes us a sort of bland profession. The exception is /track which is unique and after a little fine tuning it is and can be our defining skill. Our other skills need to be revamped to differ them from scout skills. I will repeat that various types of traps above and beyond those of the thrown variety, the ability to customize camps, and a more effective /conceal ability would distinguish us.

We should have a /sneakattack ability while /concealed that reflects a first attack on an opponent who can't see you until it is too late.

Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?

A returned emphasis on camps. With the removal of the camp requirement to call vehicles, most groups will not feel the need to include a ranger on their mission. The healing ability is almost nullified by the number of people who can already make camps with their scout skills, and a doctor's ability to call a medical droid without even a camp makes waiting for a camp to heal wounds almost unnecessary. A camp that can heal BF with an entertainer, passively buff players (or slow the timer on existing buffs), decrease the healing time for pets, actually repell creatures, etc. would increase the desire to have a ranger on hand for those extended difficult hunts.

How could/should they interact with other professions?

The modular camp idea adds various avenues for increased interdependencies with other professions. other professions create certain modules that rangers could bennefit from in the wilderness, but would not logically be able to create. Other professions depend on rangers to guide/protect them in the wilderness. One radical idea would be for storms on the planets to affect players negatively unless a ranger is present in the party to guide them thru the storm. negative effects could be as simple as slowed movement on foot that is canceled by a ranger.

What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?

We should be masters of the wilderness which means in the GCW, when outside of the major cities, we should be able to take advantage of our surroundings overothers. /conceal working as a debuff on the to-hit, being able to blend in with our surroundings, and having some affect on creature pets in combat should be our role.

Request For Comments:

The community is invited to make commentsthrough April. At that time, the thread will be closed to further comments. Feel free to comment on any or all of the above items. Please stay on topic.

---

Overall, I would like to expand the creature centric concept that has been slapped on Rangers to be expanded to a more wilderness centric concept. Just being the ultimate creature hunter is a bit limited. Our community has been brainstorming over these very ideas for the past few weeks and several very good ideas have come up. NRaas's outdoorsman proposal contains the bulk of it and I for one am very proud to have taken part in it's development. We are a patient and reasonable profession who would rather come up with solutions than call nerf.

thanks for your time.