Development Cycle Archive

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Bentos wrote:

Did you play on TC2 the first week with the 90% built in plus force armor? Remeber the 10-20 point saber hits? Remeber no one finishing a duel because they got bored of neverending fights? That was just with built in resists no robe. I certainly do not want to go back to neverending fights. So now you have a choice, Master Defender for Toughness (Best PvE build) or Enhancer for Force Armor(lots of toys, can PvE but lots of downtime).

Thanks to the ability to change templates on TC2 right now you can see this. Kill some NS with a Defender and then swap over to an Enhancer. You will notice the built in toughness like night and day. Defender gets hit for 125-150 a pop, Enhancer gets nailed for 200-350ish but has a massive Force drain.

Spellweavers were hitting for:

1000-1100 no saber equipped no Defender

500-600 Master saber no Defender

200-350 Master saber plus Force Armor on

125-150 Master saber Master Defender no Force Armor

Please when you dispute me and try to include numbers from testing today or in the future, vague descriptions like "gets hit harder" do nothing for anyone.

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And the people that are just starting and grinding towards those skills use what for defences? Go try 4004 lightsaber and that is all for your skills. Drop everything else and come back and tell us how long you live and what the grind is like. That is what we are up in arms over. This freebie knight status is still going to be a couple months away for the majority of Jedi. What concerns me most is it actually being feasable to grind through the entire defence tree without having any defences or resists along the way. As an example... show me 1 other class that is combat that does not wear armor through their entire grind to mastery?

JEDI POWERS

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Thunderheart wrote:

25.The force power tree overall is weak, especially Force Choke. Right now there is no reason to use these skills other than possibly Force Cone 2 which still has worse DPS then a ForceSaberThrow3 attack. The delay coupled with mediocre damage and high force cost makes this tree undesirable.

Balance tweaks are still constantly being made to all the Force Disciplines. Force Powers are intended to be a viable alternative to sabers. This doesn't mean equal, but still viable. They should both have their uses and places.

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I understand completely the desire to have situational uses for different skills. However, whenbalancing outthe Powers tree against the LS tree, please keep in mind that a majority of the new jedi system is centered around combat. Specifically, the Knight trials and the FRS are extremely combat intensive. Ideally I (and I would think you as well) would like to see a Master Saber jedi and a Master Force Power jedi, all else being equal, to be equally equipped for PvE combat, and equally balanced against one another.

There is no good reason why one should have to go the way of the saber to be able to participate in the FRS. As it stands now, though, the huge imbalance in favor of the sabers makes this a de facto reality.

I know you're still working on tweaking these types of issues, but it would be good to know that this type of equivalence is something the development team is striving toward as the publish approaches.

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AnXdiety wrote:

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Bentos wrote:

Did you play on TC2 the first week with the 90% built in plus force armor? Remeber the 10-20 point saber hits? Remeber no one finishing a duel because they got bored of neverending fights? That was just with built in resists no robe. I certainly do not want to go back to neverending fights. So now you have a choice, Master Defender for Toughness (Best PvE build) or Enhancer for Force Armor(lots of toys, can PvE but lots of downtime).

Thanks to the ability to change templates on TC2 right now you can see this. Kill some NS with a Defender and then swap over to an Enhancer. You will notice the built in toughness like night and day. Defender gets hit for 125-150 a pop, Enhancer gets nailed for 200-350ish but has a massive Force drain.

Spellweavers were hitting for:

1000-1100 no saber equipped no Defender

500-600 Master saber no Defender

200-350 Master saber plus Force Armor on

125-150 Master saber Master Defender no Force Armor

Please when you dispute me and try to include numbers from testing today or in the future, vague descriptions like "gets hit harder" do nothing for anyone.

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And the people that are just starting and grinding towards those skills use what for defences? Go try 4004 lightsaber and that is all for your skills. Drop everything else and come back and tell us how long you live and what the grind is like. That is what we are up in arms over. This freebie knight status is still going to be a couple months away for the majority of Jedi. What concerns me most is it actually being feasable to grind through the entire defence tree without having any defences or resists along the way. As an example... show me 1 other class that is combat that does not wear armor through their entire grind to mastery?

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Your forgetting that while you may only have 4-0-0-4 LS, with the live patch you will be able to master TKA, Fencer or what ever you feel you need.

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AnXdiety wrote:

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And the people that are just starting and grinding towards those skills use what for defences? Go try 4004 lightsaber and that is all for your skills. Drop everything else and come back and tell us how long you live and what the grind is like. That is what we are up in arms over. This freebie knight status is still going to be a couple months away for the majority of Jedi. What concerns me most is it actually being feasable to grind through the entire defence tree without having any defences or resists along the way. As an example... show me 1 other class that is combat that does not wear armor through their entire grind to mastery?

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Because assuming a big enough timeline everyone will be Knights or Higher. If a player ground out to Jedi they can certainly grind out a Doctorbot to tail them around. They can also grind out TKA, Fencer and Novice Medicto support themselves as they level and they can most certainly kill things other than rancors. There are tons of lower mobs in the game that will now let those guys level without having to go to the high level mobs right away.

There will be no Jedi who are 4004 LS upon revamp. They will be 4004 LS with TKA, Fencer and Medic. PLUS you will have outstanding AOEs and around 2k Force with 23 Regen. No worries of TEFs. What more do you want, honestly?

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osskno wrote:

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AnXdiety wrote:

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Bentos wrote:

Did you play on TC2 the first week with the 90% built in plus force armor? Remeber the 10-20 point saber hits? Remeber no one finishing a duel because they got bored of neverending fights? That was just with built in resists no robe. I certainly do not want to go back to neverending fights. So now you have a choice, Master Defender for Toughness (Best PvE build) or Enhancer for Force Armor(lots of toys, can PvE but lots of downtime).

Thanks to the ability to change templates on TC2 right now you can see this. Kill some NS with a Defender and then swap over to an Enhancer. You will notice the built in toughness like night and day. Defender gets hit for 125-150 a pop, Enhancer gets nailed for 200-350ish but has a massive Force drain.

Spellweavers were hitting for:

1000-1100 no saber equipped no Defender

500-600 Master saber no Defender

200-350 Master saber plus Force Armor on

125-150 Master saber Master Defender no Force Armor

Please when you dispute me and try to include numbers from testing today or in the future, vague descriptions like "gets hit harder" do nothing for anyone.

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And the people that are just starting and grinding towards those skills use what for defences? Go try 4004 lightsaber and that is all for your skills. Drop everything else and come back and tell us how long you live and what the grind is like. That is what we are up in arms over. This freebie knight status is still going to be a couple months away for the majority of Jedi. What concerns me most is it actually being feasable to grind through the entire defence tree without having any defences or resists along the way. As an example... show me 1 other class that is combat that does not wear armor through their entire grind to mastery?

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Your forgetting that while you may only have 4-0-0-4 LS, with the live patch you will be able to master TKA, Fencer or what ever you feel you need.

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You're forgetting the fact that every other class in the game that partakes in PVP wears composite armor full time. Even if we have their defences did you notice they all still HAVE to wear armor to do anything.

Message Edited by Dubrekken on 06-22-2004 06:00 PM

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osskno wrote:

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AnXdiety wrote:

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Bentos wrote:

Did you play on TC2 the first week with the 90% built in plus force armor? Remeber the 10-20 point saber hits? Remeber no one finishing a duel because they got bored of neverending fights? That was just with built in resists no robe. I certainly do not want to go back to neverending fights. So now you have a choice, Master Defender for Toughness (Best PvE build) or Enhancer for Force Armor(lots of toys, can PvE but lots of downtime).

Thanks to the ability to change templates on TC2 right now you can see this. Kill some NS with a Defender and then swap over to an Enhancer. You will notice the built in toughness like night and day. Defender gets hit for 125-150 a pop, Enhancer gets nailed for 200-350ish but has a massive Force drain.

Spellweavers were hitting for:

1000-1100 no saber equipped no Defender

500-600 Master saber no Defender

200-350 Master saber plus Force Armor on

125-150 Master saber Master Defender no Force Armor

Please when you dispute me and try to include numbers from testing today or in the future, vague descriptions like "gets hit harder" do nothing for anyone.

---

And the people that are just starting and grinding towards those skills use what for defences? Go try 4004 lightsaber and that is all for your skills. Drop everything else and come back and tell us how long you live and what the grind is like. That is what we are up in arms over. This freebie knight status is still going to be a couple months away for the majority of Jedi. What concerns me most is it actually being feasable to grind through the entire defence tree without having any defences or resists along the way. As an example... show me 1 other class that is combat that does not wear armor through their entire grind to mastery?

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Your forgetting that while you may only have 4-0-0-4 LS, with the live patch you will be able to master TKA, Fencer or what ever you feel you need.

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ExceptTKs and Fencers get armor.

If the TK and Fencers defense is so powerful why do they wear armor? What do you think they would say if SOE took their ability to wear it away?

Think before you post.

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Bentos wrote:

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AnXdiety wrote:

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And the people that are just starting and grinding towards those skills use what for defences? Go try 4004 lightsaber and that is all for your skills. Drop everything else and come back and tell us how long you live and what the grind is like. That is what we are up in arms over. This freebie knight status is still going to be a couple months away for the majority of Jedi. What concerns me most is it actually being feasable to grind through the entire defence tree without having any defences or resists along the way. As an example... show me 1 other class that is combat that does not wear armor through their entire grind to mastery?

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Because assuming a big enough timeline everyone will be Knights or Higher. If a player ground out to Jedi they can certainly grind out a Doctorbot to tail them around. They can also grind out TKA, Fencer and Novice Medic to support themselves as they level and they can most certainly kill things other than rancors. There are tons of lower mobs in the game that will now let those guys level without having to go to the high level mobs right away.

There will be no Jedi who are 4004 LS upon revamp. They will be 4004 LS with TKA, Fencer and Medic. PLUS you will have outstanding AOEs and around 2k Force with 23 Regen. No worries of TEFs. What more do you want, honestly?

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Sorry but do you want to pay for the extra account so I can have a doctor bot follow me around? and as far as other classes go, do they not all wear armor to grind and even PvP? Show me 1 PvP battle where people are not fully decked out in composite armor. Even if they are TKA's or Fencers or whatever other class. Its the largest nerf ever dealt in this game to lower level characters.

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Thunderheart wrote:

The Jedi Development team is against balancing these combat features with the robes. We will work to balance resists to poisons/fire/etc.in a different manner and report back to you.

WAIT!!! Please TH, you take away our armour, then GIVE US NO PROTECTION IN ROBES? How can you even begin to justify this? Every other melee class, now even wookies can wear armour. Why are jedi, a MELEE class selected for this HUGE nerf. We will die. ALOT. How can you even dream of taking away our armour and not replacing it with ANYTHING? This is truly unbelievable.

Yes, they are. Basically, this is 20/20 hindsight and a by-product of the conversion. As a character moves through the Jedi process on a normal progression, Force Sensitivity skills are basic enhancements for “regular” characters to simulate Force Sensitivity. At that point, they are great to have. Once a character becomes a Jedi, they have already moved past those skills and in effect developed their Force powers from sensitivities into full blown powers. In essence, you have all moved past this point but everyone will have to go through this phase in the future.

OK - we agree they are useless - why are they costing me skill points?

Jedi are not being designed to be the perfect solo character that can defend against all other classes. Jedi are not “scrappers” and by definition, Teras Kasi was developed specifically to fight Jedi at close range.This will be especially true when Jedi are given the ability to block ranged attacks back at their opponents. Melee attacks are something the Jedi should be wary of.

You do remember watching the movies right? All the lightsaber blocks? No need for blocks against other melee'ers because the LS CUTS through hands/fists/whatever else.

27. Overall skill point requirements need to either be reduced or one tree collapsed.

Having to spend 24 skill points in force sensitive skills that do NOTHING for Jedi and having all skill boxes RAISED in skill cost is a very bad combo.

8,6,4,2 is simply too restrictive. We have jedi coming from a system where you can have all powers, to a system where you can not possibly have even the most basic powers and be viable.

That's just not "fun." This revamp is about what is fun, as much as what is good for the game as a whole.

We aren't looking for overpowered here, but we would like to be able to have viable templates and still have enough points to learn some of the necessities such as Meditate and Force run.

Please lower the skill requirements to 7,5,3,1 which will let Jedi master 2 trees and achieve 4444 in another. This is hardly overpowered, will still allow for great diversification between Jedi, and will discourage dabblers. Please do us this one favor, it is not asking too much.

Absolutely the revamp is about fun. It's also about adding depth and choice to the experience of being a Jedi. Adding additional skill points or reducing the skill costs just further homogenizes Jedi making them all have the same basic abilities. That is completely counter to one of the major goals of this rebalance.

NO NO NO NO- as it is desgined, the revamp is about weakening jedi. No fun there. As a 4444 guardian I am losing 9 skill boxes. Over 20 skills. Now you are telling me that you are taking away my 90% comp armour and replacing it with what? NOTHING. TOTAL BS. SoI take master LS, Master Def (which leaves me with defenses VASTLY INFERIOR to any melee temploiter), then I HAVE to take heal 4004 or the first CMI see kills me. OK lets take a look at what I lose: force runs, over half my healing powers, then ALL the force powers - mindblasts, kd's, lightnings, throws, intimidate, weakens, choke, - and I have NO ENHANCEMENT powers. No armour, shield, absorb, meditate, NOTHING. And my defenses ARE STILL INFERIOR. WAKE UP and smell what you are shoveling. Why in the hell would ANYONE want this renerf?

THERE is no depth or choice in your new system - just a quest to MINIMIZE the gutting you have done to the class. WE ASKED for diversity between light and Dark jedi. You ignored that. Instead you spead out our skills and make it impossible to build a template that EVEN vaguely resembles the skill set a high level jedi should have. What you have done IS WORSE THAN WHAT WE HAVE NOW.

It is very simple - either compress the defenses into the other trees, or give us the skill points to have the same 3 trees we have now.

You want to enrage the community and alienate your customers? Take our armour away and dont replace it.

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