Development Cycle Archive
Thread: Jedi Punchlist Feedback
PlayeroftheDay
Tue Jun 22, 2004 6:08 pm
#40
FlagJin wrote:
The one that I finhd quite hilarious is about moving healbattlefatigue to the novice tree being overpowering. A newly unlocked jedi initiate gets this....so how is it overpowering? Because of this I am forced to go into cantinas and watch entertainers to heal my mind wounds. Something that as soon as I unlocked I have not had to do. Simply amazing how logic is getting a working over these days.
I think they want you to continue to go the Cantina like the rest of us and reward you at high level with not having to go. Makes more sense this way.
Jedi are babies
Chut
Tue Jun 22, 2004 6:08 pm
#41
Jedi and Combat:
TH, your post seems to say we are now a melee class with zero armor.
Is this correct?
I don't know how the team can see this as viable.
For PVE, this means lots of downtime during grinding..this is less fun than how it is now (if you call the grinding now fun lol!)
We need armor? go back to composite till the CB or just make it on par with composite and nerf it with everyone else in pub 10.
XP Loss:
What about deaths due to LD?
Lightsaber Crafting:
Eperimentation really makes little difference to Lightsabers. Is anyone looking into this?
Finally, what is this default50% run bonus you talked about jedi get?...terrain neg 50? When do we get that? novice enhance? by default?
thx
Message Edited by Chut on 06-22-2004 06:15 PM
Message Edited by Chut on 06-22-2004 06:29 PM
Stupidfly
Tue Jun 22, 2004 6:11 pm
#42
Chut wrote:
Jedi and Combat:
TH, your post seems to say we are now a melee class with zero armor.
Is this correct?
I don't know how the team can see this as viable.
We need armor? go back to composite till the CB or just make it on par with composite and nerf it with everyone else in pub 10.
That's exactly what they said they would do in the archives.
Looks like they decided to give us the old combat revamp up the pooper ahead of everyone else.
OnlyMaestro
Tue Jun 22, 2004 6:13 pm
#43
Melee mitigation is going away for PvP for everyone very soon.We are evaluating alternate ways to make the Defense Tree more desirable.
Why? 
lockder
Tue Jun 22, 2004 6:13 pm
#44
Evobeck wrote:
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Thunderheart,
This is a response to question #27, about the ablility to learn more skill boxes than we can today.
While I agree or concede to most the other responses, this response bothers me a bit. Your answer to this question directly contradicts how it is actually coded. The limitation of skills in entirely homoginizing the profession. EVERYONE will be taking the basic same template. I guarantee 95% of jedi will have at least 2 lines of lightsaber, and 2 lines of healing. Also most likely the template will include 2 lines of enhance at least. This only leaves 2 -3 lines of distinction between jedi, which is very homoginized and unfun.
The other point that bothers me is that you did NOT add depth and choice to the profession. In fact very few skills were added. Most you just added a level 3 skill on top of some, and split up the rest. The fact is that a normal non-jedi template can add more diversity than jedi do. A master doctor/TKM would essentially have master saber/master defense/master healer.
While everyone would like to dabble in some force power or try a bit from all the lines it is not at all possible, especially with the cost of novice boxes, which in and of themselves offer no benefits. The skill point system completely discourages dabbling, because a dabbler in 4 of the trees is very limited in the amount of high level boxes they can take. What now happens is everyone is forced to take a template that allows them to be viable in pvp which is their only end game. After they have done this, they have 0 skill points left for anything else.
Allowing us to learn 2 more full lines, would enhance the profession a lot more, and allow people to have some nice skills / abilities that may not just be about the best way to pvp. Most people would like to have force run and meditate but will not take them if they feel defense is better to have.
I feel if the current system stays intact, you may as well take out the force power line, because virtually no one will have it. Please go to the enclave and start asking people what their template is. Just count how many people are now master saber/master enhance/4004 healing. IT would be in the entire development teams best interest to do a poll or count, and to see just how uniform all jedi are now with these restrictions.
Message Edited by EvoBeck on 06-22-2004 07:46 PM
Beck - Bloodfin
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Im really 200% agree with evobeck im one of those WANT be a dark jedi using force powers but i will be FORCED to get master LS master enhancer and healing 4 0 0 4 because i want do pvp and another template isnt useful.
Force powers are SLOW(even as member council i waste 2 seconds in each lighting2, saber do the same with 1second ), waste too much power vs a lightsaber and do the same damage, and you fail a lot more using mind blast, kd or intimidate from force powers than using a lightsaber (well intimidate works its only for force power)
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Thunderheart,
This is a response to question #27, about the ablility to learn more skill boxes than we can today.
While I agree or concede to most the other responses, this response bothers me a bit. Your answer to this question directly contradicts how it is actually coded. The limitation of skills in entirely homoginizing the profession. EVERYONE will be taking the basic same template. I guarantee 95% of jedi will have at least 2 lines of lightsaber, and 2 lines of healing. Also most likely the template will include 2 lines of enhance at least. This only leaves 2 -3 lines of distinction between jedi, which is very homoginized and unfun.
The other point that bothers me is that you did NOT add depth and choice to the profession. In fact very few skills were added. Most you just added a level 3 skill on top of some, and split up the rest. The fact is that a normal non-jedi template can add more diversity than jedi do. A master doctor/TKM would essentially have master saber/master defense/master healer.
While everyone would like to dabble in some force power or try a bit from all the lines it is not at all possible, especially with the cost of novice boxes, which in and of themselves offer no benefits. The skill point system completely discourages dabbling, because a dabbler in 4 of the trees is very limited in the amount of high level boxes they can take. What now happens is everyone is forced to take a template that allows them to be viable in pvp which is their only end game. After they have done this, they have 0 skill points left for anything else.
Allowing us to learn 2 more full lines, would enhance the profession a lot more, and allow people to have some nice skills / abilities that may not just be about the best way to pvp. Most people would like to have force run and meditate but will not take them if they feel defense is better to have.
I feel if the current system stays intact, you may as well take out the force power line, because virtually no one will have it. Please go to the enclave and start asking people what their template is. Just count how many people are now master saber/master enhance/4004 healing. IT would be in the entire development teams best interest to do a poll or count, and to see just how uniform all jedi are now with these restrictions.
Message Edited by EvoBeck on 06-22-2004 07:46 PM
Beck - Bloodfin
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Im really 200% agree with evobeck im one of those WANT be a dark jedi using force powers but i will be FORCED to get master LS master enhancer and healing 4 0 0 4 because i want do pvp and another template isnt useful.
Force powers are SLOW(even as member council i waste 2 seconds in each lighting2, saber do the same with 1second ), waste too much power vs a lightsaber and do the same damage, and you fail a lot more using mind blast, kd or intimidate from force powers than using a lightsaber (well intimidate works its only for force power)
Ardel5
Tue Jun 22, 2004 6:16 pm
#45
you said robes would be comparable to high end composite armor!
what the hell is this no armor resists for robes
what the hell is this no armor resists for robes
are you insane!
ebay will be over-ran with Jedi auction in the next few weeks
jk___
Tue Jun 22, 2004 6:16 pm
#46
Hey
Tried some testing on TC2 tonight:
Against a group of bounty hunters, I won pretty easily using lightning and sabers, however they landed states and fire on me in almost first try despite my resists from the enhancer tree and my master saber blocking
Against a Jedi i was dead right away because of state effects that still stacked in first hit despite resist states and bleeding etc from the enhancer tree.
It does seem as if the resist specials in the enhancer tree didn't really have any effect on me, otherwise things seem to be working allright.. more testing to come
AshleyHumes
Tue Jun 22, 2004 6:19 pm
#47
So what are my options for leveling my Jedi if I don't wish to follow the dark path of slaughtering thousands of innocent creatures or wielding a lightsaber?
Is there any other viable way to gain experience without following the dark side?
In several of the books, jedi would not even harm insects (considering it to be aggressive and not defensive).
Give me some options that allow me to properly roleplay my character. Please.
Dubrekken
Tue Jun 22, 2004 6:20 pm
#48
Gah, my first post got totally ripped up by the html editor here. What genius instituted THAT. I had a whole post full of ideas and points. Well I'll pharaphrase since it took me almost 20 minutes to do the first one.
#17. You don't want to move the healing bf to the novice box. Sure, it makes sense, specially when initiates got it before they could even swing a lightsaber. Is it currently game breaking or even over powered that a jedi can heal their own bf currently? Me thinks no.
#19. FS skills ARE completely worthless to a jedi. If I were to ask any current player to toss away 24 of their own skill points just to master a current profession on their template, does anyone think they will? Either give jedi 24 extra points, make the FS skills actually work for a jedi, or allow them to be given up once a player reaches padawan. 24 skill points are HUGE when you're talking trying to master 5 FULL trees.... well 4 unless defender gets a lot of love.
#21. Stop the presses! When did melee classes become the sanctioned members to be the jedi population control? Melee classes can't get jedi missions to hunt them. With the blocking only working for ranged classes, the bh (the only sanctioned jedi hunters via missions) are further limited. So now I should just ignore BH and fear an acklay stun baton (btw whoever put acklay bones in should be tarred and feathered IMO). Sure the combat revamp will come in and swoosh away all this bad stuff, but for the 3+ months till it happens just continue to get pounded on by melee?
Being in a close proximity to a lightsaber should cause a melee to think more then twice about takeing on a jedi. I mean, a lightsaber can cut off limbs with ease, cut through metal. Suddenly I have a fencer whom I miss 60+% of the time when he's running COB, doing scatter hit with an acklay stun baton completely ripping me apart in a few seconds, while a solo bh can't even scratch me. Sure melee are more in my court doing close proximity fighting, but why wouldn't I just cut off their leg?
In a bit of offbeat thinking here, dizzy/kd is pretty much the "i win" button for melee and some ranged professions. This dosen't effect just jedi but every profession. I've been down on the ground for over a minute and a half clicking "stand" and waiting to see if I actually stand (since if you spam the button you just flop around like a fool).
#24. Limiting jedi to 60 current inventory limit isn't the brightest idea. Here's why, you're a master LS. Currently (unless it changes before it goes live) crystals/pearls decay at a 4:1 ratio in a 4th gen saber. Let me explain. 4 1000/1000 condition pearls will give you a 4000/4000 condition life on the pearls/crystals put in. But instead of one takeing a decay hit (3999/4000) each one takes a decay hit at the same time (3996/4000) so not only has the decay remained in the jedi sabers, but it has gotten 4X as bad. Pearls and crystals are not repairable, are not retuneable, so if you want the best damage possible out of your saber, you have to put in 4 (at 4th gen) crystals/pearls and watch them decay 4X as fast.
So basically at master LS IF you decide to use only one type of saber (me personally I'll carry around 1 of each type just for fun and variety) you will be carrying around at least 3 color crystals (that still decay) and 12 crystals/pearls. Now if you hunt NPC's some of them drop a LOT of loot (ns dropping 10+ heavy leather, armor shards ect). Basically you're limiting a jedi on carrying more cash loot or a wider variety of materials for their sabers. Upping it in a future publish is fine, but in the mean time jedi are getting the shaft on it.
Overall I'm glad we're getting more feedback on it. IMO the rest looks fine.
Edited: #13. I'm sure what you ment TH was that the robes won't have status resists. I'm hopeing that didn't mean "no damage resists". Takeing away 80% composite and giving jedi paper robes is a bit ummm.... wrong? Even a friggin droid gets 40% effectiveness against all damge type.
Message Edited by Dubrekken on 06-22-2004 06:29 PM
Bannon9k
Tue Jun 22, 2004 6:21 pm
#49
Just out of curiosity, will there EVER be a cap to how far into the NEGATIVE xp you can go?
I for one am all for some form of death penalty, and I like the idea of the XP loss. But for a person to be relatively low level, just earn 60k exp, and die because of a power failure or anything like that. The person instantly becomes negative xp. -140k isnt so bad. But what happens if someone with only 4000 LS get a negative 1mil xp? That would be very very hard to work out of. Any chance negative XP could be capped at something around 1mil to 500k? Its not like we can remake our jedi like we used to.
eldo21
Tue Jun 22, 2004 6:22 pm
#50
Lightsaber Crafting & Jedi and Combat
I am worried that the 4 150+ damage -9FC pearls I made my saber with will come out as junk.
The random part of the tune shouldn’t make a 4FC saber have the ability to come out as a 10 or worse FC saber.
That just isn’t fair given the cost of the pearls.
The damage / increase in overall usefulness of a 4th gen saber isn’t much better then a 3rd gen saber.
The damage / usefulness should scale just like the FC does.
I am worried that the 4 150+ damage -9FC pearls I made my saber with will come out as junk.
The random part of the tune shouldn’t make a 4FC saber have the ability to come out as a 10 or worse FC saber.
That just isn’t fair given the cost of the pearls.
The damage / increase in overall usefulness of a 4th gen saber isn’t much better then a 3rd gen saber.
The damage / usefulness should scale just like the FC does.
Unless the crystal drop rate is increased / "instanced" krayt / or missions for krayt(that have loot) available the
rate of crystal / pearl decay is way to high. It should be reduced by at least 400%.Now with the knight trials
have to kill krayt the odds of getting pearls is going way down. The are all camped more then anything else in this game
andwhen people camp rare mobs its not fun for anyone! Please make something like the vette that will drop
saber parts for us. That way if we fail to get them it not because someone had a bigger group, or our luck was bad
but yet we failed to complete the mission.
We should be testing with robes that have resists on TC/TC2. How good of a test is it if I cant tell if
I will be able to kill a NS protector cause I might not take as much damage on live as resists will be added.
Now on live I take on 5 or more at a time with ease, on TC2 I cant even take one down, but then again I have
no armor...
Things like force armor and heals taking a differing amount of force depending on how useful they are is
not a good idea. It makes them much less desirable as you never know what (in force) these might cost.
I used heal state when I had a /blind/dizzy/stun/intim and it cost me 800 force. I would have rather had the
state and 800 force back.
ALL JEDI after they have spent their skill points should be able to do what a PADAWAN on live can do.
Heal themselves for a small amount, be able to run away, and have basic saber / force skills.
As we get more powerful then add the diversity.
And last but not least the FS skills should cost 0 skill points or after your a padawan you should be able to drop them.
Message Edited by eldo21 on 06-22-2004 06:28 PM
Message Edited by eldo21 on 06-22-2004 06:33 PM
Ko-aIri
Tue Jun 22, 2004 6:24 pm
#51
One more thing I'd like to mention... death penalty was addressed, but I had to bring this up:
Death penalty is severe, yet gives no failsafe buffer to account for LD-type deaths like the old system. We need 2-3 "freebie" deaths (similar to the current /deathcount, with a decay timer on the deaths), to avoid situations where by problems like power-outages or ISP malfunction, we die and lose not only the 200K for death, but also an additional 200K for going LD while dead. Our lightsabers drop to 200-300 damage when not doing specials in PvE, not to mention our lack of armor makes us much more vulnerable to damage, so if we go LD our chance of death/incap against mid-high to high level MOBs is nearly 100%. With no deathcount safety buffer, we could see people losing hundreds of thousands of XP through no fault of their own. I'm fine with losing 200K XP to dying in PvP or PvE through my own stupidity, but not to my ISP deciding to make my modem reset for 20 minutes.
Death penalty is severe, yet gives no failsafe buffer to account for LD-type deaths like the old system. We need 2-3 "freebie" deaths (similar to the current /deathcount, with a decay timer on the deaths), to avoid situations where by problems like power-outages or ISP malfunction, we die and lose not only the 200K for death, but also an additional 200K for going LD while dead. Our lightsabers drop to 200-300 damage when not doing specials in PvE, not to mention our lack of armor makes us much more vulnerable to damage, so if we go LD our chance of death/incap against mid-high to high level MOBs is nearly 100%. With no deathcount safety buffer, we could see people losing hundreds of thousands of XP through no fault of their own. I'm fine with losing 200K XP to dying in PvP or PvE through my own stupidity, but not to my ISP deciding to make my modem reset for 20 minutes.
LeBob
Tue Jun 22, 2004 6:26 pm
#52
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3. Lots have not been addressed, it was specified by Keldarin that the main character/secondary will share 10 lots. Many Jedi have structures in their name by using the /transferstructure command which has not been labeled a punishment. Please check on what the conversion might do to existing structures.
Nothing will currently happen to Jedi who have used /transferstructure. Once the last details of the Jedi revamp go live, a Jedi will be able to have 10 lots per server. This will ultimately be addressed when we rebalance all characters lots, but that will not be happening in Publish 9.
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TH, what I think the point was is that on live right now, it is possible that one's main char is using 10 lots and that simultaneously one's Jedi char is using 10 lots (via the /transferstructure command). Keldarin has said that one's main and one's secondary will have to share the 10 lots after P9 goes live. So what will happen after P9 goes live to those people that have a main and a Jedi char on live right now both using 10 lots? Will the surplus lot usage be allowed until this "rebalancing of all characters lots"?
thanks
3. Lots have not been addressed, it was specified by Keldarin that the main character/secondary will share 10 lots. Many Jedi have structures in their name by using the /transferstructure command which has not been labeled a punishment. Please check on what the conversion might do to existing structures.
Nothing will currently happen to Jedi who have used /transferstructure. Once the last details of the Jedi revamp go live, a Jedi will be able to have 10 lots per server. This will ultimately be addressed when we rebalance all characters lots, but that will not be happening in Publish 9.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TH, what I think the point was is that on live right now, it is possible that one's main char is using 10 lots and that simultaneously one's Jedi char is using 10 lots (via the /transferstructure command). Keldarin has said that one's main and one's secondary will have to share the 10 lots after P9 goes live. So what will happen after P9 goes live to those people that have a main and a Jedi char on live right now both using 10 lots? Will the surplus lot usage be allowed until this "rebalancing of all characters lots"?
thanks