Development Cycle Archive

Waste, let me dumb this down for you...

What do secondary stats do? They complement primary stats. How do they complement primary stats? By making it so that you regenerate HAM faster and use less ham. Right? Ok, lets move on.

Secondarieswork EXACTLY like armor. If you get hit when you are wearing armor, that hit takes away less of your ham then if you weren't wearing armor. Right? No matter what, a 1000 HAM human STILL has 1000 HAM, the HAM just goes farther when you wear armor because of the absorption. That is why you continually keep saying "every otherclass gets 4 times the HAM of wookiees when you take armor into account."

So, if we are taking net HAM into account, why do you keep ignoring the effect of secondaries on the primary stats? You continually keep saying "I get only a 13% ham boost over every other class because I get 13% more health, action, and mind. The problem being, you are ignoring the benefits that the secondard stats provide (except when you want to argue that they aren't worthless...a little contradictory don't you think?).

The fact remains, that although averaged statwookiees get only 13% more actual HAM, they also get 13% more regeneration and 13% less ham costs when you average the extra 700 points they get over all 9 stats. Let me repeat that to let it sink in.......using your logic, WOOKIEES NOT ONLY GET 13% MORE HAM, BUT 13% MORE REGENERATION AND 13% LESS HAM COSTS.

Additionally, that 13% extra averaged secondary stats will eventually allow wookiees to wear armor that is 13% more effective, resulting in an even greater net ham bonus.

As an example (I'll use your numbers this time, because you can't seem to understand anything but those numbers): Take a Human with 611 (5500/9) in each of his 9 stats compared to a wookiee with 688 (6200/9)in his. As you have said, the wookiee has a 13% actual HAM bonus. However, that wookie also has decreased HAM costs on specials and increased regeneration. Assume that the wookiee, with his 13% increased secondary stats, regenerates an extra2 HAM a second, and his specials cost 2 less HAM a second.

Over a 30 second battle, that wookie (shooting 15 times) gains 90 HAM (2 ham * 30 seconds regeneration + 15 * 2 ham in specials), that the Human doesn't have.

688 + 90 = 778....778 / 611 (human) = 27% more HAM over that 30 second battle.

You can't have you cake and eat it too. If you are going to argue net HAM on armor and the joys of piling points into secondary stats, you are going to have to accept that piling 13% more points into secondary stats gives wookiees more than a 13% HAM advantage.

Stating that you are putting462 of the 700 extra points that wookiees get into secondaries, and then ignoring the effects of that 2/3 of the extra points to say that wookiees only get a 13% HAM bonus is clueless and wrong.....I'm sorry but it is.

Now for a breakdown of the finer points:

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Waste93 wrote:

And if I do have 200 extra points in regeneration then it does.

Ok so what does that regeneration do? It increases your HAM. If you put a 1000 HAM human, and a 1000 HAM wookiee side by side, and the wookiee regenerates faster, who has an advantage? If you give them both the EXACT same armor, who has the advantage?

If you put 200 points into regeneration stats you are getting a HAM bonus out of it no matter whether you want to make-believe that it doesn't or not.

No. They are being factually honest. It's called an average stat. Those points you get are spread over nine stats, not three.

And if you are averaging stats, you have to acknowledge the fact that points spent on the the secondary stats increase that 13%. You are ignoring 2/3 of that points spent and concentrating on 13% additions to 3 of the stats.

If you want to be factually honest, admit that that the net HAM effect of spending an extra 13% in each of your secondary stats amplifies and mutiplies the 13% you spend on primary stats to be much greater (like around 25%).

Of course I haven't worn armor. I'm a Wookiee. Which is why I have some good secondaries. I need the regeneration and lower specials cost to be more effective.

Two hudred extra points in a primary stat isn't going to help against an opponent that does hundreds of points per hit.

So you are spending lots of points on secondary stats so that your HAM pool goes farther? So if you spend lots of points on secondaries, for increased regeneration and decreased HAM costs, your HAM lasts longer? Really?

I find that shocking, because according to you, those extra points you spend in secondary stats do NOTHING for your HAM. Hmmmmm....

How much longer? Maybe 13% longer?

Lets see....a wookiee with 13% more HAM that has 13% better regeneration and 13% less HAM costs from specials....need a calculator to see that is better than a 13% increase to HAM?

Not quite. The multiplier depends on the AP of the weapon being used against the player because of the way the damage system works. A 200 point hit against that target with an AP0 = 50 damage. So its 4X the HAM. AP1 = 100 so it's 2X. AP2 = 125. AP3 = 156.

ARRRRRRRGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH!!!!!

Please stop trying to tell me how armor works...you are clueless.

When an AP1 weapon shoots a AR0 armor, it gets a DAMAGE BONUS!!!!!! Right?

Sure an AP1 weapon does more damage against an armored foe...it ALSO does more damage against an unarmored foe.

Example:

An AR0 target gets shot by a AP0 weapon for 200 damage. The target puts on AR1 50% composite and gets shot again for 200 damage. That 200 damage = 50 actual damage with the armor. Net effect= 4x more HAM.

An AR0 target gets shot by a AP1 weapon for 200 damage. That damage gets multiplied to 300. The target then puts on AR1 50% composite and get shot for 200. The AR is cancelled out, so only the 50% effects the damage and the target takes 100 damage instead of 200. Net effect = 3x more HAM (not 2x like you say)

The fact remains that no matter what the multipliers are, HAM goesmuch MUCHfarther with 50% composite than without, and the HAMmultiplier you get from armor FAR outweighs the need to put points in secondaries.

Depends on your template. As a Rifleman with the mind costs as they are I can empty my mind in 10 seconds easy. By boosting the secondaries I can extend this. So no, boosting secondaries is not always stupid.

As a rifleman, you will never wear armor because the HAM encumberance imposed by the armor would make the cost of your specials too high to manage. For that reason, your arguments are stupid.

When wearing my 50% composite armor, with every single piece encumberance sliced at 25% or more, I have 1000 HAM and 50 in each of my secondary stats (because the armor eats all the other points spent in secondaries). That is all.

Imagine shooting your rifle with only 137 focus (50 + 77). See the stupidity in your arguments?

I am arguing that wookiess will have a 25% HAM bonusWITH armor, because it makes no sense to put any points into secondaries while wearing armor. You are countering with "yeah but when I am NOT WEARING ARMOR, I migrate everything inro my mind values, despite the fact that I think all wookiees divide all 6200 of their points exactly even over all 9 pools."

You are being silly...

Yes. But again where did you get these base numbers from? You made them up. The average composite is not 50%. It's about 75%.

(1) How the hell do you know what the average composite is....you just said you haven't worn armor.

(2) No, the average composite is NOT 75%. Why? Because the secondary stat costs of 75% composite are SO FREAKING HIGH that is it unwearable without being buffed at all times.

I and everyone else I know wears 50% composite because that is the level of composite you can wear (and take on and off when needed)without having negative secondary stats.

Any player that wears 75% composite does so temporarily while buffed, because without buffs all of your secondary stats drop to 1, andyou get no regeneration and abysimally high HAM costsfrom specials.

Do some players wear 75%? sure. Is it the norm? Not on your life.

Unless you have some really poor armorsmiths. Also see the formula we came up with the lower the Wookiee armor resists by an amount to counter the HAM bonus. Remember that formula I gave last post? That results in 13% more damage to the Wookiee in armor compared to non-Wookiee. That is 13% more damage PER HIT. If you get hit once a second and are taking 13% more damage per hit, you are more than negating the Wookiee HAM advantage.

Ahhhh...what the hell are you talking about?

Look, if wookiees have more points to spend on secondary stats, they can (say it with me) wear better, higher encumberance armor. Better armor = higher resistance % = bigger HAM multiplier = more net HAM.

If a human with 50% composite gets hit for 200 once per second for 10 seconds, that human takes 500 damage.

If a wookiee gets 77 more points to each of their secondary stats over the human, they can either (1) wear better armor than the human can (higher mutiplier), or (2) wear the exact same armor and have lower ham costs and higher regeneration than the human can (more HAM).

Using my above example, a wookie that wears better armor has a higher HAM multiplier and get more net HAM...

Why is this so hard for you to understand?

Again you are skewing numbers to fit your statement. You are comparing a human in 50% to a Wookiee in 55%. Well yes the Wookiee is going to have higher numbers not only because of the stat bonus but also he has better armor. Why not put the human in 75% armor and compare the two then? 75% armor is 8X unarmored. So that makes the human 8000 HAM while the Wookiee in 55% is 4786. Who has the advantage?

Because you idiot, HUMANS CAN'T WEAR AS GOOD OF ARMOR BECAUSE WOOKIEES GET (using your logic) 13% MORE POINTS IN SECONDARY STATS!!!!!

Higher secondary stats = wookiees can wear better, higher encumberancearmor.

Currently composite armor can be experimented all the way up to 80%+. Can anyone wear it? NO.(at least without being buffed at all times). Currently humans can only wear around 50%-55% composite armor before their secondary stats cap out and can't be increased anymore (without buffs).

HOWEVER, Wookiees with their extra 700 points, WOULD be able to wear armor better than 50%-55%. Why? BECAUSE THEY HAVE MORE POINTS TO PUT INTO SECONDARIES. This is in addition to the additional regeneration and reduced HAM costs they get.

Point is armor protection is on a curve. Higher armor increases at a much higher rate. 90% (rare but available) protects at 20X vs unarmored. Doesn't that make them 20000 effective HAM?

We can play around with numbers all day. But you are comparing two dissimilar things in your so called example.

That's the first correct thing you have said so far. Yes wookiees are dissimilar...they get 700 more points. That means that, unlike humans, they get a choice of (1) better armor,OR (2) better regeneration and special costs, OR (3) better HAM (which is then mutiplied by armor).

As I showed in all 3 situations, the net effect is around 25%. The ONLY way it is 13% is if you idiotically refuse to submit to logic and totally ignore the effects that secondary stats have on HAM and wearable armor efficiency.

13%. Learn what an average is. You take all the points and divide by the number of available stats. Which in this case is nine. Also some of those 700 points you are using for your calculation are LOCKED into secondary stats. So you are using numbers that are in a secondary stat and artifically inflating primary stats.

Yes, averaged you get 13% more HAM......PLUS 13% more HAM from regeneration, PLUS 13% less HAM costs.

13% HAM + 13% regeneration HAM + 13% less specials HAM IS NOT 13% HAM.

13%. Also as stated earlier this is per hit. Which in the long run will work as an advantage to non-Wookiees when comparing damage over time.

We've also suggested increasing encumberance on the armor by 13%. This would lower the secondaries by an increased amount and negates the Wookiee stat bonus.

Dude, what the hell is wrong with your head?

If wookiees get 13% to ALL 9 stats that means they get 13% additions to BOTH primaries AND secondaries.

Armor encumberance affects ONLY secondaries.

So, take a human with611 HAM, and a wookiee with that 13% bonus of 77 for a total of 688 HAM.

Now give them both 50% composite, but increase the encumberance of the wookiee's armor 13%.

Net result, the wookiee STILL has moreHAM to be multiplied by the armor effect: Human = 2444 HAM v. Wookiee = 2752 HAM.

That doen't negate the stat bonus, now does it.

Give up? Why? Because you say so? Pfft. Sorry I'm more stubborn than that

Too bad stubbornness doesn't = intellect.

and I have a much better understanding about armor and HAM then you appear to.

As demonstrated by the fact that (1) you don't know anything about armor piercing v. armor resistance, (2) have never worn armor, (3) think 75% composite is the norm, and most importantly (4) can't seem to understand that secondary stats INCREASE your primary HAM pool.

Since I know there are nine stats while you seem to not know if there are three or six. Pull up your character sheet. How many stats are listed? Using your definition of HAM, Wookiees don't have a HAM bonus. They have a stat bonus. Those points can be put in ANY stat, not just primaries.

And 6 of those stats don't do anything do they? They do? They increase your HAM pool? Imagine that.

You have 9 stats...3 HAM stats and 6 stats that increase HAM.

Remember 13% HAM+ 13% regeneration + 13% HAM savings from specials DOES NOT = 13% HAM.

It may not be logical to do so but since it is completely possible, I've just negated your entire arguement.

*Looks for the negation....finding none, moves on*

There is no HAM bonus. It's a stat bonus. You say I don't understand HAM. Well it appears you don't understand Wookiees or how point distribution can work.

What do stats do...they INCREASE HAM. Stat bonus and HAM bonus are the EXACT same thing.

Now if you want to say but they can put them in the primaries and go from that. Then don't Humans have the bonus since they cap at 1100 and could gut all other stats to boost just those? Wookiee Mind and Action both cap lower than the human. I don't remember what the Wookiee Health caps at. But lets say we use all the caps. The Wookiee bonus, using your definition, would still not be 25%.

Ah...What?That makes no sense whatso..... You're not worth it...moving on....

Thanx for playing. But you can sit down now. Teacher is done with you.

Yes the teacher is done now...feel free to return to the corner.

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TheSmokey wrote:

With all this talk of HAM and secondary stats, let me point something out (taken from http://www.insomniax.net/swgalaxies/swgalaxies.html - yes, it hasn't been updated in a while, but as far as I know these numbers are correct), also, Strength, Quickness and Focus affect special HAM cost, and Constitution, Stamina and Willpower affect HAM regeneration rates.

Human

Health - 400 to 1100

Strength - 400 to 600

Constitution - 400 to 500

Action- 400 to 1100

Quickness - 400 to 550

Stamina - 400 to 500

Mind - 400 to 1100

Focus - 400 to 600

Willpower - 400 to 600

Wookiee

Health - 650 to 1350

Strength - 650 to 850

Constitution - 450 to 550

Action- 500 to 1200

Quickness - 400 to 550

Stamina - 400 to 500

Mind - 400 to 1100

Focus - 450 to 650

Willpower - 400 to 600

So let's look at where "the wookiee wins":

Health - +250 low and high end

Strength - +250 low and high end

Constitution - +50 low and high end

Action - +100 low and high end

Focus - +50 low and high end

So we get 700 extra HAM, yes, across 6 different pools. Two of those (Strength and Focus) affect how much our special moves cost in HAM, one affects how fast our HAM regenerates (Constitution) and the other two directly affecting how much damage we can take (Health and Action). Looking at those numbers can you still sit there and justify that because we get some extra points in the pool that we don't need armour? Seriously?

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Thank you for this...both constructive and helpful.

You missed my point in the shuffle, so I will restate it.

Yes, wookiees need armor...VERY badly in fact.

I am not arguing that wookiee's don't need armor, only that it needs to be 20% to 25% less effective then current player armor to be properly balanced.

My main objection to all the arguments here is that people keep saying "wookiees only get a 13% HAM bonus." That is wrong, because regeneration and decreased special costs can, over time, have the EXACT same effect as increasing HAM itself. 13% additional HAM + 13% better regeneration + 13% decreased HAM costs = more than 13% HAM. That is my point.

I don't care where the points are distributed, they STILL increase HAM and need to be accounted for. Waste is hiding the ball by distributing 2/3 of those 700 points in secondary stats and then pretending those stats do nothing.

I am not working against wookie armor, I am merely leveling the playing field...

You're right, I did lose your point in all the shuffle

If our secondaries weren't capped where they are, wookiees would be very powerful (probably far too powerful), with massive regenerative potential. To me (playing as a wookiee; Master Smuggler/Master Pistoleer), the +250 Health, and, to a lesser extent, +100 Action, is helpful. But it isn't armour.

Glad we both sit on the same side of the fence

You know...

Honestly, if I had my way, I would just scrap the clown suit and give wookiees innate (in other words built in)armor.

Give all wookiees AR1 20% to most resistances.

If you think about it, this would be easily balanced with player armor...

Whereas player armor substantially reduces secondary stats when worn, wookiees would suffer no such penalty (because their armor is built in). This means that wookiees would suffer no regeneration or specials penalty for armor, in addition to having more ability points to distribute to those pools.

Net Result:

1000 HAM non-wookie players wearing armorget 4000 HAM against AP0 weapons, but havereally slowregeneration and huge specials penalties.

1100 HAM (including300 of 700 point bonus) wookiees get 2750 HAM against AP0 weapons, but have REALLY fastregeneration and very small specials costs.

Additionally, players have to buy, slice, and maintain their armor, whereas wookieeswouldn't pay a dime.

I don't understand why we need to invent wookiee armor to balance wookiees. Just give then innate resistances...

Ok Daker I have been reading both sides of the arguement, and u need to get your story straight. First of all u say this:

"(1) HAM = Health, Action, Mind. HAM is NOT strength, constitution, stamina, quickness, focus, or will power...these are called "secondary stats." If you get hit NOTHING happens to these pools. Spending a bunch of extra points on secondaries is a waste. If you, as a wookiee, are spreading points over these pools you are WASTING those 700 points. From my tests it takes over 50 points invested in any of the stamina type values to decrease your special’s HAM costs (note the correct usage of HAM…health action mind) one to two single points."

Then u say this:

"13% additional HAM + 13% better regeneration + 13% decreased HAM costs = more than 13% HAM. That is my point.

I don't care where the points are distributed, they STILL increase HAM and need to be accounted for. Waste is hiding the ball by distributing 2/3 of those 700 points in secondary stats and then pretending those stats do nothing."(you just said yourself they do nothing and are a waste)

So basically, on your logic, a wookiee should place all of his his Stats into Health, Action and Mind, and just forget the secondaries. You stated above that is a waste to put them anywhere else.

So if thisis the case, my wookiee's stats should look like this:

1. Health 1150


2. Strength 650


3. Constitution 450


4. Action 1100


5. Quickness 400


6. Stamina 400


7. Mind 1100


8. Focus 450


9. Willpower 400

As opposed to a Humans which would look like this:

1. Health 1000


2. Strength 400


3. Constitution 400


4. Action 1000


5. Quickness 400


6. Stamina 400


7. Mind 1000


8. Focus 400


9. Willpower 400

I just got throughbalancing out the stats on both a human and wookiee character so the above is accurate. Here is the bonus we get:

+150 to health...+250 strength... +100 action... +100 mind... +50 to focus = +350 to actual HAM bonuses and+300 to secondaries.

A wookiees total HAM(not including secondaries) would equal 3350 as opposed to a human's which is 3000...this is only an 11.6% advantage in Total HAM.

A wookiees total secondaries would equal 2650 a humans would equal 2400....this is a total increase of 10.4% above humans.

Regeneration Stats( Con, Stamina and willpower) wookiees get a +50 increase 1250 as opposed to 1200 for a human.....thats a 4% bonus to regeneration. I doubt this bonus factors in much during combat.....

Ham Cost Stats( Strength, Quickness and Focus) wookiees get a +300 bonus....1500 as opposed to 1200 for a human....thats a 25% advantage to the wookiee. So basically if a Weapon had a ham cost of 100/100/100 for a human....the HAM costs for a wookiee would be 75/75/75. Of course with a good buff to the secondaries...these HAM costs would be next to nothing for both a wookiee and a human. I know when I am buffed fully...including drinking brandy.......my HAM cost on my T21 are extremely minimal if not nothing. Also, HAM recovers much more quickly from using specials....than just an actual hit from an opponent.

So actually a "11.6% additional HAM + 4% better regeneration + 25% decreased HAM cost = Approximately an OVERALL bonus of around 13%

actually 12.85% if u want to be exact. I come to this calculation by Averaging the Regeneration bonus and the HAM cost bonus.......assuming both types of secondary stats provide a 50/50 role during combat......take the result and average it into the total HAM. In other words:

[11.6 + (4 + 25)/2] / 2 approximates to 13%

Please feel free to correct my calculations.....I don't claim to be a Math wizard.

Arasett

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Daker-Naritus wrote:

You know...

Honestly, if I had my way, I would just scrap the clown suit and give wookiees innate (in other words built in)armor.

Give all wookiees AR1 20% to most resistances.

If you think about it, this would be easily balanced with player armor...

Whereas player armor substantially reduces secondary stats when worn, wookiees would suffer no such penalty (because their armor is built in). This means that wookiees would suffer no regeneration or specials penalty for armor, in addition to having more ability points to distribute to those pools.

Net Result:

1000 HAM non-wookie players wearing armorget 4000 HAM against AP0 weapons, but havereally slowregeneration and huge specials penalties.

1100 HAM (including300 of 700 point bonus) wookiees get 2750 HAM against AP0 weapons, but have REALLY fastregeneration and very small specials costs.

Additionally, players have to buy, slice, and maintain their armor, whereas wookieeswouldn't pay a dime.

I don't understand why we need to invent wookiee armor to balance wookiees. Just give then innate resistances...

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This is definetaly not the first time this idea has been shot out of the air like a lame duck.......

First of all it does not address one key benefit, which is armor attachments.

Second, our Regeneration is not REALLY fast and we dont have very small special costs.

and thirdly.......20% resists...you got to be kidding me. You honestly think 20% natural resists equates to 70% composite. I know your more intelligent than that. Even with our small 13% bonus....it doesn't even come close.

Arasett

Daker,

Firstly secondaries don't increase the primaries, they restore it.Yes there is a difference.

As a Rifleman I may very well wear armor. It will decrease my secondaries, however with buffs I can cancel that out without any problems since all stats can be buffed.

Lets look at how you come to your 23% HAMbonus you state Wookiees have.

1) You basis for this number appears to be this statement "1233 HAM is 23% more than 1000 HAM. Math...learn it, live it, love it." Which means you are using a base of 1000 for everyone else and adding in the Wookiee stat bonus in only those three primary stats. Can we agree that this is what you are doing and that you are using 1000 as the base? Yes or no

2) Your use of 1000 as a base is arbitrary. However I will accept its use in your calculation if you will also accept its use as a base in my calculations. Will you agree to this? Yes or no?

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Daker-Naritus wrote:

You know...

Honestly, if I had my way, I would just scrap the clown suit and give wookiees innate (in other words built in)armor.

Give all wookiees AR1 20% to most resistances.

If you think about it, this would be easily balanced with player armor...

Whereas player armor substantially reduces secondary stats when worn, wookiees would suffer no such penalty (because their armor is built in). This means that wookiees would suffer no regeneration or specials penalty for armor, in addition to having more ability points to distribute to those pools.

Net Result:

1000 HAM non-wookie players wearing armorget 4000 HAM against AP0 weapons, but havereally slowregeneration and huge specials penalties.

1100 HAM (including300 of 700 point bonus) wookiees get 2750 HAM against AP0 weapons, but have REALLY fastregeneration and very small specials costs.

Additionally, players have to buy, slice, and maintain their armor, whereas wookieeswouldn't pay a dime.

I don't understand why we need to invent wookiee armor to balance wookiees. Just give then innate resistances...

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Doesn't work. Players are vulnerable to all damage types. So with an innate ability but still being vulnerable to all damage types we still take the same damage we take now.

So here is how your AR1 20% resists would stack up. Right now Wookiees take 100% damage vs all weapons.

Adding in resists would negate the vulnerability issue but would add in the damage bonus. So vs AP1 weapons the Wookiee takes 80% damage under your system. A bit better than they do now. Vs AP0 weapons it would be 40%. A good improvement. However against AP2 it would be 100% and AP3 would be 125%.

Overall effect isn't much of a difference except vs AP0 weapons. Nor does it resolve the armor attachment issue.