Development Cycle Archive
Thread: Crafting Experimentation Changes... resolution.
Cafa wrote:
I really wish the Devs would consider more than one day live.
Give it three days. Let people see what is what. The mad rush to make something better will prevent honest evaluations.
Fivo Asia
JUST SO YOU ONE-STAR COWARDS KNOW WE WILL NOT BE HELD BACK!
Cafa wrote:
Cafa wrote:
I really wish the Devs would consider more than one day live.
Give it three days. Let people see what is what. The mad rush to make something better will prevent honest evaluations.
Fivo Asia
JUST SO YOU ONE-STAR COWARDS KNOW WE WILL NOT BE HELD BACK!
You really sounds like a little terrorist now. Can't what you get cause the majority in the thread was against it, let's blow the system up.
Galaxyburst
Cafa wrote:
SioBabble wrote:
Eeloominath wrote:
I really didnt want to admit it - until today.
While in the beginning the devteam seemed to push thru their concept, now they seem to have handed over the general game design to a bunch of immature whiners. Well done, devteam. You're going down the very same path quite a bunch of other MMOs went down already. Literally went down.
Well, you must know what you're doing.
You obviously read what you want to read.
The arguments against this change were logical and compelling, well reasoned, and pointed out that if the goal was to empower new crafters, the effect of the change would have the opposite effect...and established masters were the ones making the argument...for the good of the game, not themselves.
It's a shame when logic and reason are dismissed as "whining"; but then again, this is then norm of discourse in fratboy coward America.
Reasons against logical (laugh) and reasonable (ROFL).
The reasons listed consist of pscho-babble pop crap. For example:
It's not fair to Noobs - You know, Fivo is pretty well known on Tempest server right now. I'd say those that don't know of himare seriously in the minority. Whether through acting as a HELPER or advocating the causes of his faction through crafting support or just out-crafting most other architects in sheer volume and availability, or Fivo's knack for being able to fill that 48 Fusion order TOMORROW my little toon has worked his butt off to achieve a small empire. You can't even imagine the directions I've gone to create this. No holo-grinding, massive relationship building, over 42 active verbal (VERBAL) contracts with game members right now alone (all documented and tracked) multiple off-line database development and currently investing the majority of my game wealth into long-term income generation for the group of people I play with. Frat buy he is not (nor I).
Not ONE SINGLE GAME PERSONAGE ever helped me out of any charity until last week. That's playing since Sept. 14th, 2003. Not a single one till last week. Then out of the blue a member of HAKD (for all you HAKD haters) gave me a structure experimentation +3 tape and I finally got 1 single extra box to play with yesterday for architecture. I spent 30 million on the +20 for artisan experimentation alone.
My point is that not a single person was ever asked to help me, too. I learned the ropes, ground walls for free to make master and earned a lot of people's trust by NEVER asking for anything to be given to me. I established myself in game as a Master through damn hard work, not exploits. In your universe the next person that signs up for the game should have all that for free from your argument. You, not we pro-changers, are the one that is selfish. You want the broken system because it let's you (or your interested agenda) operate as a crafter without either diversity or development. You are the one that wants this to be as simple as Warcraft 1/2/3,. not us.
The pro-change people I see I have participated on the forums with for many months now. They are the ones dedicated to their craft, not fly-by-nighters.
Also, take your cheap America shots somewhere else. Only cowards through RL country politics (yes, that means YOU) into an argument when they have no amunition. The best DE I know is from Brussels in RL and he was 100% for this change.
You are the same whiner in a different skin that killed the AT-ST's into nothing. You say you want to play Star Wars and then whine when it's hard to be a reb. You cannot win in game through hard work, only through sucking up and crying to the devs. Go figure.
Fivo Asia
It's not that they system was unfair to "noobs," it is that it creates barriers to entry, which in turn furthers existing monopolies and allows others to monopolize. This system would further restrict supply, especiallyfor top of the line weapons and armor, which have the highest demand. This is because under the new system 12 point crafters would have a huge advantage over everyone else. This is harmful to the economy, not helpful. On most servers the supply of top notch crafted goods is far too scarce. Restricting the supply is only exacerbating this problem.
The counter argument to this is the classic "work ethic" argument, if you work hard enough anyone can get to the top of their craft. This is a fallacy when used in the real world, and it is a fallacy in this game.
In order to understand why this is a fallacy in the game, you must ask yourself, how do you get to 12 points? There are primarily 3 methods (none of which require "skill"): (1) you get lucky and get 20 points in skill tapes to drop for you or to friends (essentially impossible); (2) you spend tens of millions of credits to acquire these (since most beginning crafters and newer players do not have this amount of credits this is unrealistic, i.e., a large percentage of players cannot realistically achieve this); or (3) you or a friend exploit the known exploits for acquiring skill tapes 
There is no "work" or "skill" involved in reaching the top of your craft. A person could reach the top of their craft within the first couple days of starting the game via many methods (exploits, ebay credit purchases, getting resources / items from a friend or guild, etc.).
Additional harm to the economy occurs because of increased BER rates on extracters. The rates are already too high, and in the hours this change was live they were increased. I am not going into a long discussion of why increasing the BER has destroyed the economy here, but there is really no counter argument. It was clearly harmful. (feel free to try to argue this point though, I would be happy to engage in a debate on this issue).
In addition to the fact this crafting change would further harm the economy, it would also destroy certain professions. BE for example was utterly destroyed by this crafting change. It is pretty sad that the devs didn't even think of this before implementing the change.
This change also introduced a new level of randomness to the process (and bugs). Under this new system a crafter has to make many more attempts at creating a schematic because to make the best possible schematic you need to hope for a string of amazing successess. Under the old system you merely had to avoid moderate success (which are bugged) and failures. I see no reason why more randomness was needed in the crafting system. It really is too random already, and this randomness is the cause of most of the crafting bugs that remain in the game.
Likewise these changes did not introduce more variety, they actually restricted it. For the vast majority of products used all experiment points would be forced to go into just one line of experimentation whereas under the old system a crafter could experiment in more lines of experimentation after maxing out the first one. A better solution would have been to have the non-damage non-effectiveness lines of experimentation actual do something Every weaponsmith knows that experimenting in range, durability or HAM has little or no effect (one point on a great success on HAM may reduce HAM costs by a point - whoopiee! ).
In short, the new system did the exact opposite of what the devs' "understanding" post said were the objectives of the change. I guess the devs CRIT FAILED hehe.
As an aside, I find it amusing that you claim your opponents needed to nerf the at-st, which implies that you need an overpowered faction perk to compete. You are doing the same thing you are accusing others of doing, just from the other side of the coin
As an Architect, you gave me a 24 hour window in which to create schamatics for BER-14 heavy harvesters, and to collect resources for the critical components.
This is not good for the game - for the next month or two architects who didn't get their BER-14 schematics are going to have a rough time of it, and its not fair.
BUT - the challenge of getting 1000 heavy harvesters worth of schematics (harvesters and components) lined up and ready to go in 8 hours - THAT was really hard and I had a lot of fun doing it.
Ail wrote:
Monopolies only exist as long as they do not try to take advantageof their status of monopoly...
It is the same in RL word.
How many companies make computer chips, how many make computers, how many make database software ?
Not that many....
But if all those companies suddenly decided to agree with each others and to raise prices outrageously new company would come into play because people would see an opportunity to produce the same things those others companies produce and sell it at a lower price....
It's not different in game.
Most of you are arguing against a system that actually mimics quite well what happens in real business life in the US.
Three months ago I was a beginning Armorsmith with a few millions in my pocket. A +16 armor experimentation tape was put on auction on my server board. And the person that won it was the only AS will already +20 exp pts on our server. I kinda whined and bitched about him trying to corner the market. I was told as an answer : 'welcome to capitalism'.
I took his advice to heart. I had several players offers me tapes they have found in game at a price that was high but not as high as it would have been if the said tapes had been auctionned. They had realized he had a monopoly and was taking advantage of it to charge very expensive prices and to prevent others to do what he was doing....
I did a lot of marketing and advertising, worked hard to always keep my vendors stocked ( my unlayered composite vendor has always been stocked at any single time in the last 15 weeks, and at any given time my vendors offer over 800 pieces of armor, layered or unlayered.), word of the mouth helped me too. And slowly I did start to catch up on him and finally to pass him, not in terms of quality but in terms of amount of sales...
I used all the capitalistic tools I had at my disposition and it payed off..
It was a long journey but it was rewarding.
Now most new AS opening shop on Valcyn sets prices that are close to mine and I may not be liked but noone will deny I have been successfull...
If I did it, someone else can do it and I know I have to keep a watch for competition. At the same time I am not exploiting my position, I could easilly divide my prices by 2 and make it impossible for any newcomer to compete. But I choose not to.
So don't talk to me about monopolies...
Becoming a well known master of your craft should be a long and hard journey, not something you achieve in a week...
Because lets face it, if it was so easy not so many players would stay crafters. It takes dedication and work but it is a rewarding job....
At first i was against the change but now the circumstances have changed. I can only speak my mind as a weaponsmith because i dont really know how this affected other profesions.
New crafting system:
Yes I am a 12 point smith and I played ALL DAY while the crafting enhancement was in effect. I went to this player city where i found lots of crafters inside a city hall with good crafting stations in itsince the server wentup. I made schematicswhere the results were better like any other smith.When I had about 50 schematics on my vendor and my datapadfull of them i decided to call it a day.The 10 points smiths i assume did the same were they found a better result and made schematics as well. Needless to say the 12 point smith schematics were better than the 10 point smiths.
Roll back to the old crafting system:
Today im baking all the stuff i made yesterday using 23 factories. Taking precautiontaking all the items off the crates like many others. Meanwhile... the 10 point smith is doing the same.
What wrong with this picture after all these patches?
1-The 10 point smith willnot have a chance to compete with the 12 point smith because their schematics are weaker however he/she will be able to sell their products at a resonable price because they are better than average.
2-Thesmith who just bought the game willnot have a chance to compete to with any of the 10 or 12 point who made schematics because they wernt online during the patch day and will eventually quit frustrated by this fact. Regardless of resource quality they will never achieve the results smiths got during patch day.
Solution?
Well in a perfect world the developers would have delayed Publish 7 and removed the crafting system enhacement so that it would have never gone Live... but that didnt happen. The only way I see the new smith competing with the old smiths is by putting the crafting enhacement back in the game. It wont be easy for the new smith beacuse it will take time to gettapes and resources but at least he stand a chance competing with 12 point smiths eventually. As the game stands right now i dont see any new smith competing with me for at least 3 years or when i decide to quit the game.
To all the people posting "I made thousands of schematics and items and nobody can compete with me for next xxx years because of this patch"
Your the reason the game is FUBAR.....
Your the reason why the economy is FUBAR....
How can the devs develop a game where there are people like you with x-server lot trading and multiple accounts and then try and make it equal for a new person starting the game?
Its damn impossible for them, and your the reason for this........
I found this thread, and I thought more people should read this.
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=Valcyn&message.id=93759
TroThorns wrote:
IanEdgey wrote:To all the people posting "I made thousands of schematics and items and nobody can compete with me for next xxx years because of this patch"
Your the reason the game is FUBAR.....
Your the reason why the economy is FUBAR....
How can the devs develop a game where there are people like you with x-server lot trading and multiple accounts and then try and make it equal for a new person starting the game?
Its damn impossible for them, and your the reason for this........
I don't blame the players who do this, they are just doing what any rationale actor would do. It is the devs fault for not having any foresight that things like this will occur. The primary reason why any experimentation change is a bad thing is that it creates two classes of items pre and post the change. Regardless of whether the change nerfs items or boosts items it is bad for the economy. The only thing worse is making a short-term change and then reverting it, which is what the devs did
Irregardless of whose fault it is. Those that made their schematics share the blame. They knew it was wrong to exploit the patch when they figured out how much of a benefit they'd get from it and they know that it is wrong to sell those items since they exploited the patch now.
The devs are at fault for leaving the patch in, but the players who made their schems are now equally at fault for making their schems with an intent to sell.
By allowed people to use it for a day, you once again unbalanced the game. A very few crafters have made many schematics that are MUCH better than is currently allowed. When a servers top end armor goes from 70%base to 77%base and then everybody else can only make 70%base but the few there is a problem. PUT THE CHANGE BACK IN or Piss more people off with unbalance and bugs.