Development Cycle Archive
Thread: Crafting Experimentation Changes... resolution.
I posted the following on the Architect forum, I repeat it here because I doubt that the DEVs will take any notice otherwise. I doubt they will here either, but at least it may get read.
So after publish 7 it became 'temporarily' possible to make BER14 Heavies, great eh? No way! this is the biggest screw up so far by SOE.
Itsaddens me immensely. I was not able to get on last night so could not try things out for the 1 day it was possible, but it is not that which makes me angry. Now there are going to be batches of 14BER heavies on the market which will devalue everything we can make for a while after they pull the exp changes. So what have SOE succeeded in doing ? They have created an artificial market for unrepeatably high BER harvesters which everybody will want, those will sell for ridiculous prices until stocks of themrun out, which will take some time as the sensible architects will hoarde these and trickle them out for maximum profits, the price of resources will rocket as architects search for the specific resource required to make100% omus from already prepared schematics for these harvesters once their own stocks run out. The normal max BERs which we will return to tomorrow will probably have to drop in price if they are to compete. This is not 'sour grapes' from me, I do not normally make heavies, I have always concentrated on Mediums and have not heard of BER11 mediums being made (or BER5 units), although it just may be possible, I do not see a major effect on these mediums unless 11s were possible and have been made. But I do feel for anybody else who has not been able to take advantage of the publish in the short space of time it is 'live', especially for those who are just starting out, or early in their career as a crafter.
SOE have managed this very badly, they should have postponed the publish and taken out everything related to Experimentation changes before releasing, I am sure that the same is going to be the case for WS & AS, a flood of temporary 'nerf' items which will make it worse for those who did not or could not achieve these exceptional results.
Now instead of doing anything that improves the economy they have achieved the opposite, they have made it worse than ever. Good Luck to everybody who has succeeded with making schematics for these UBER omus, I don't begrudge you the credits you will make, I just believe that SOE have seriously screwed up again by not thinking through the consequences of their ill-planned release.
SOE - this really sucks you have really screwed up this time, what are you going to do about it ?
Whiners rule!
ProteusLeafdew wrote:
and now letting the changes go thru for a day u ruin the economy again by allowing people to make a few uber items that can't be reproduced like higher ber harvesters, armor parts , crafting tools and stations, and weapons that people will likley charge crazy prices for
having just spent the last number of hours gridnng out shcems right up till the server was shutting down in 10seconds... i must say... some of my stuff was better in the un patched system and some of it was better in the patched system. for example in the doc stuff. before the "change" i could make the ASDS power 71, new system I could powe 75 if i got 2 amazings on a 4-box experiment. I didn't have +20 clothes so who knows. The ACRDM i was makign was the same in both systems, both max at 63. the ABEC i was making in the old system i could get 25charges/12 power. new system, i could sometimes hit 25power/10charges. but usually only 24 power/10charges... and that is using the best tat fiber and the lok wild wheat ever on ahazi....
as for the final assembly of the buff kits.... i enver got one done wtih like an amazing and all greats. most of them had a lot of goods, or greats. but none iwth an amazing. the buffs duration was signifactly longer in teh "patched" system than in the normal one. but the base was lower. kind of odd considering the meat was like 983 oq 914 pe or whatever that corellian stuff was.
One odd thing i noticed was with a few non multi line experiematn items, the resutls were worse in the patch than normally. for example I normally make repair tools that are 99.7% effective, in the patch they came out 99.65% usign teh same 997cd copper. odd? the crafting tools are normally 14.91 effective, in teh aptch they were 14.90.... as to why that chagned.. i'm still not sure.
for the devs, if you acutally read this (doubtful) I've never felt the NEED for +20 experimetnation for doctor, chef or armor as I did in this 24 hour period of power crafting. I also felt the NEED for +25 assembly clothes as well, simply b/c having an amazing assmebly helped a lot more.
as for the idea if you get an amazing experimeation, then it will make the item more powerful tthan it was previosuly craftable... I'm not sure I like that idea. I go tthe power on the Adv SDS to go up 4 points just by patiently craftign one after the other till I got teh 2 amazigns on teh first 2 experiemts.
As for my chef... well the food he crafted.. the few thigns I tried out came out a lot worse in teh "patch" than in the regular system... but then again I haven't been stock piling the best resoruces for chef for the past 6 months, like i have been for doc..
All in all i just wish you didn't do this on a tuesday so i would have had more time to craft... and bigger droids... 150 schems/droid just isn't enough...
well thats aenough rant for me. hey anyone on ahazi make a medium harv higher than a BER 10 or have any thing fun like that to sell ?
Likaeus wrote:
I started testing the change about a half hour after the servers came up. All I can say is that I'm so glad I opposed this. This change does nothing that the pro-change people claimed it would.
1) Diversity in goods. Well, there most certainly is more diversity. There is what 12 pointers can make and then there's comparative garbage.
2) Help the ailing economy. If this means putting small shop crafters out of business and discouraging anyone without 12 experimentation points from entering a crafting field that relies on experimentation ... then this change would have been a huge success. Fewer competitive places to shop and grossly inflated prices. Sounds like an economic recipe for success to me.
3) Hurt the power gamers. The only group of players this change would have helped are the power gamers. This change would have made it such that only the existing monopolies could survive. 4) Decrease the power of players in combat. Not likely given the high quality nature of stockpiled resources. If anything, it would have made players slightly stronger for quite some time. Even if they fiddled with resource stats, frequency, and spawn percentages.
5) Make crafting more interesting. If you redefine interesting as meaning a pointlessly depressing exercise in futility, then I'd have to agree.
6) Level the playing field. The amount this change would have widened the gap between the have and have-nots is phenomenal. Pretty much as level a playing field as Dathomir.
I am extremely pleased the Dev Team read and considered the arguments presented by both sides of this issue. Ifeel stronglythat they made the correct decision in rescinding the change. While I am glad they gave everyone the opportunity, I am also concerned about the schematics produced during the period this has been live. Of course, it wouldn't take much for them to just do a 24 hour rollback and make that problem go away.
wow you are sooo right. as for the devs and the story guys... they dont' play the game... so they never know how their changes will affect. all they know is what they read on the forums...
TroThorns wrote:
Likaeus wrote:
I started testing the change about a half hour after the servers came up. All I can say is that I'm so glad I opposed this. This change does nothing that the pro-change people claimed it would.
1) Diversity in goods. Well, there most certainly is more diversity. There is what 12 pointers can make and then there's comparative garbage.
2) Help the ailing economy. If this means putting small shop crafters out of business and discouraging anyone without 12 experimentation points from entering a crafting field that relies on experimentation ... then this change would have been a huge success. Fewer competitive places to shop and grossly inflated prices. Sounds like an economic recipe for success to me.
3) Hurt the power gamers. The only group of players this change would have helped are the power gamers. This change would have made it such that only the existing monopolies could survive. 4) Decrease the power of players in combat. Not likely given the high quality nature of stockpiled resources. If anything, it would have made players slightly stronger for quite some time. Even if they fiddled with resource stats, frequency, and spawn percentages.
5) Make crafting more interesting. If you redefine interesting as meaning a pointlessly depressing exercise in futility, then I'd have to agree.
6) Level the playing field. The amount this change would have widened the gap between the have and have-nots is phenomenal. Pretty much as level a playing field as Dathomir.
I am extremely pleased the Dev Team read and considered the arguments presented by both sides of this issue. Ifeel stronglythat they made the correct decision in rescinding the change. While I am glad they gave everyone the opportunity, I am also concerned about the schematics produced during the period this has been live. Of course, it wouldn't take much for them to just do a 24 hour rollback and make that problem go away.
This hits the nail on the head. I still don't understand what the devs could have been thinking. This new system doesn't do any of the things they claimed it would. How did they not understand that? It is just shocking really.
Plus the new system sucks to do, it just makes you more reliant on the rolls in what is probably a buggy system. You essentially have to make 10-20 items until you get a string of amazing successes. I don't consider that fun, nor a system that reward skill (roulette is not a skill either, it is about the same process).
It will be interesting to see how much damage is done by this change going live. It could very well be that each server will now only have 1 or 2 crafters with schematics made by 12 pointers in the few days this is live. If that is the case they will have the ability to kill off all competition....
I am glad the devs spent countless hours developing this new system before asking us about it. Way to waste development resources in a game that is constantly trashed in the press for being full of bugs. At least now you know why this game has been a failure compared to what it should have been in subscribership numbers: the devs are clueless.
I have posted a few pages back wether amazing succes is the key of this patch. It seems it does. But does amazing succes depends on the attributes of the resourcesor the skills of the crafter ? There are reports that you don't need any skill tapes to get to have BER 14 harvesters. Anybody can enlighten me/us ?
Galaxyburst
Galaxyburst wrote:
I have posted a few pages back wether amazing succes is the key of this patch. It seems it does. But does amazing succes depends on the attributes of the resourcesor the skills of the crafter ? There are reports that you don't need any skill tapes to get to have BER 14 harvesters. Anybody can enlighten me/us ?
Galaxyburst
If you check out the architect forum you will find people claimimg they have reached BER 14 without any of the tapes. I have been quite an active reader and contributor to the architect forum of late and those that are posting these claims are respected members of the community. They have my utter respect for their integrity, and they have nothing at all to gain by making any false claims anyway. IMO you can take it as read that as long as you use the highest quality resources, and if you get 1 or 2 amazings (this seems quite consistent as a prerequisite) which eventually you WILL succeed in getting, then you can get 14 without skill enhancers.
Thanks,
Bandola wrote:
Galaxyburst wrote:
I have posted a few pages back wether amazing succes is the key of this patch. It seems it does. But does amazing succes depends on the attributes of the resourcesor the skills of the crafter ? There are reports that you don't need any skill tapes to get to have BER 14 harvesters. Anybody can enlighten me/us ?
Galaxyburst
If you check out the architect forum you will find people claimimg they have reached BER 14 without any of the tapes. I have been quite an active reader and contributor to the architect forum of late and those that are posting these claims are respected members of the community. They have my utter respect for their integrity, and they have nothing at all to gain by making any false claims anyway. IMO you can take it as read that as long as you use the highest quality resources, and if you get 1 or 2 amazings (this seems quite consistent as a prerequisite) which eventually you WILL succeed in getting, then you can get 14 without skill enhancers.
So the higher the mattering attributes of the resources the greater the chance of "amazing succes" ? Can you get these amazing succes with really bad resources? I really wish SOE have communicated to us the workings of this patch. Not to blame anyone, but the official statements prior to this patchturned now to be vague.
Galaxyburst
I fully agree with the few posts above. It wasn't so much that a change was being made for me, it was how SOE approached it. People railed against it for weeks, yet it was still pushed out. As a former smuggler, I can remember when changes were being made to Panic Shot to introduce a timer. All well and good, but they also broke Panic Shot to where it was resisted by every target all the time. The Smuggler community screamed about this for 2 months, started a 1000+ post on the main forum (that went unread until the link was forwarded to Thunderheart) and the reaction was along the lines of, "We didn't know...we'll fix it soon." In the next publish it was "fixed" back to the brokeneness it was when the game first started, but they got that hotfixed the next day. Really shows the priorities they seem to have.
Just about every single major publish, this has been the case. Problems arise in Test Center, they get mentioned, and then NOTHING IS DONE TO FIX IT before the patch. The patch gets pushed out and then the Devs go, "Oops, we didn't know." What is the point of having a Test Center if you're not going to pay attention to the feedback there.
I've supported and defended the validity of this game since launch. I've been very patient in hoping that the various needed fixes are coming. This is probably the straw that broke the camel's proverbial back for me.
To the devs: fix the bugs that have been here since day 1. Start there andTHEN begin making further enhancements.
Suvasensei wrote:
Well, well ...
Good Morning !
It's been quite awhile since I've read 15 pages at one sitting on a single topic. Seems to be my chance to have a "final word" or two ...
Criticals-- every crafter's curse: The "5%" was always a fantasy ... on high quality equipment with high quality ores and componentsthis Master Artisan/Master Architect, over time, sawmore than 5% overall.
Consider that 1) Most materials are still lost on assembly crits ... 2) A critical on the first experimentation zeroed the item with norecovery ... 3) Any subsequent critical always had more negative effect than any "amazing" success. All of which certainly argued for the use of schemas and factories ... The real gut issue it seems to me is simply that criticals are apparently random -- not related to skill level, res or equipment quality. The ability to craft an item is dependent on skill and level, but the capability to craft successfully is not. Perhaps the "Critical fix" will really do just that -- we may know by Monday.
Professional differences: There seem to be at least some crafting differences between professions. Posts here seem to support that idea -- and I've climbed the trees or dabbled in all the artisan-related professions. Yetshouldn't those differencesbe in resources, schematics and outputs -- not in the conceptual mechanics of "crafting" -- and certainly not achieved byfiddling with random effects (e.g. criticals)??
Inflation: Yes, it's starting to affect the small businesses, the individual owner-operators, the "other" players.
The resources that used to sell for 2-3 cpu (yes, I was here in June), recently 3-4 cpu, now sell for 5-10 cpu -- because the money is out there to pay that and more. The simple consequence if I have to buy resources for crafting? The speeder costs, not 20k at 3 per, but 60k at 9 per -- Sixty thousand issimply not a competitive pricefor a Speeder or a Small House.You can only sell at a loss if you don't intend to stay in business ...
Remember the Old Bazaar? That 25 item limit kept the Baz from being overwhelmed completely by novice goods that novice crafters had to make. Too many goods chasing too little (interested) money. Couldn't give stuff away. The "experiment" change helped fix that problem -- fewer goods actually made, generally better stuff for sale. The actual result was probably close to the intended result.
Consider the New Bazaar: Greater quantities of goods moving at generally higher prices. Good, yes? Yet one probably unintended result wasthe base price for +1 Arm/Clothing mod items jumped from 3000 (previous Baz limit) to 6000 (new Baz limit), just like that. Not much difference if you're spending 10 million -- but if you're spending 10 million, it's probably on the Forum auctions anyway.... Wonder how many players know that most high-credit commerceis modulated on the Forums ??
Costs: Now we have too much money chasing too few goods. High-mod skills tapes and high quality resources are incredibly expensive -- demand fueledby ... 1) the "Holocron grind", the need to "get through" as many professions as required with attendant resource demands, itself an attempt to engage players in the "rest of the system" ... 2) the many ways around the "lot limit" -- especially cross-server exchanges, lot selling, etc. that while wonderfully entrepenurial, do seem to eliminate the need forgroups of people to band togetherand thus allow something unintended ...3)player's ingenuity in gathering maximum (mostly combat) rewards from the system, mission, creature or exploit ... 4) And our abiding interest in "the best" weapons, armor and equips.
A game for the rest of us: My compliments to the powergamers: they're playing their game full out. They're dedicated, they're vocal. I admire their accomplishments-- and yes, we've one in the family. Their game activities justify many of the long hours that went into, go into the hundreds of SWG specials. They arethe rich and super-rich of SWG able to spend millions on a whim, an idea, on the new thing .... not unlike r-l come to think of it ....
Point is, a great manyus are out of that game. We do not have, do not expect to have, 10 mil to spend on enhancements for our Krayt dragon adventure. We probably won't master 20 professions. We aren't "passing through" artisan on the way to #23. We can't sell at a loss until the next profession because we're in our chosen professions -- artisans,weaponsmiths, armorsmiths, chefs, tailors, droid engineers, architects, doctors, lawyers .. well, you get the idea. My compliments to the lady who's mastering armorsmithing, happy when her product improves, delighted to make a sale. I doubt she has 10 mil, or more than 10 lots. We're themiddle class of SWG. We're playing a different game.
And no one likes to work hard-- onlyto lose ground or be squeezed out of the game.
Here's the challenge: "Powergamers" are usually first in, they push the boundaries,making the game much of what it becomes ---and, statistically, you always lose them to the "next big game". The quality of the galaxy you createfor the "middle class" will largely determine how long SWG graces our screens. Can you create continual wonders for the ubers yet maintain a reasonably consistent, rewarding, yet still expanding galaxy fpr the rest of us ??
Although some are still trying (ENB for instance) -- No game has ever successfully bridged that duality.
Developers: If you've made it this far this early in the morning, you've certainly earned a compliment!! I like your game enough to have made it my game (the source of passion for us all here).
I suspect a great deal of thought, hours of work --and considerable cash-- went into the update. My compliments to you each and all... for each one past and each to come, as well.
And yourwillingness to take another look at who you'd have us be?Priceless and appreciated.
My very best to you all ,
Suva
Great post.
Galaxyburst
SioBabble wrote:
Eeloominath wrote:
I really didnt want to admit it - until today.
While in the beginning the devteam seemed to push thru their concept, now they seem to have handed over the general game design to a bunch of immature whiners. Well done, devteam. You're going down the very same path quite a bunch of other MMOs went down already. Literally went down.
Well, you must know what you're doing.
You obviously read what you want to read.
The arguments against this change were logical and compelling, well reasoned, and pointed out that if the goal was to empower new crafters, the effect of the change would have the opposite effect...and established masters were the ones making the argument...for the good of the game, not themselves.
It's a shame when logic and reason are dismissed as "whining"; but then again, this is then norm of discourse in fratboy coward America.
Reasons against logical (laugh) and reasonable (ROFL).
The reasons listed consist of pscho-babble pop crap. For example:
It's not fair to Noobs - You know, Fivo is pretty well known on Tempest server right now. I'd say those that don't know of himare seriously in the minority. Whether through acting as a HELPER or advocating the causes of his faction through crafting support or just out-crafting most other architects in sheer volume and availability, or Fivo's knack for being able to fill that 48 Fusion order TOMORROW my little toon has worked his butt off to achieve a small empire. You can't even imagine the directions I've gone to create this. No holo-grinding, massive relationship building, over 42 active verbal (VERBAL) contracts with game members right now alone (all documented and tracked) multiple off-line database development and currently investing the majority of my game wealth into long-term income generation for the group of people I play with. Frat buy he is not (nor I).
Not ONE SINGLE GAME PERSONAGE ever helped me out of any charity until last week. That's playing since Sept. 14th, 2003. Not a single one till last week. Then out of the blue a member of HAKD (for all you HAKD haters) gave me a structure experimentation +3 tape and I finally got 1 single extra box to play with yesterday for architecture. I spent 30 million on the +20 for artisan experimentation alone.
My point is that not a single person was ever asked to help me, too. I learned the ropes, ground walls for free to make master and earned a lot of people's trust by NEVER asking for anything to be given to me. I established myself in game as a Master through damn hard work, not exploits. In your universe the next person that signs up for the game should have all that for free from your argument. You, not we pro-changers, are the one that is selfish. You want the broken system because it let's you (or your interested agenda) operate as a crafter without either diversity or development. You are the one that wants this to be as simple as Warcraft 1/2/3,. not us.
The pro-change people I see I have participated on the forums with for many months now. They are the ones dedicated to their craft, not fly-by-nighters.
Also, take your cheap America shots somewhere else. Only cowards through RL country politics (yes, that means YOU) into an argument when they have no amunition. The best DE I know is from Brussels in RL and he was 100% for this change.
You are the same whiner in a different skin that killed the AT-ST's into nothing. You say you want to play Star Wars and then whine when it's hard to be a reb. You cannot win in game through hard work, only through sucking up and crying to the devs. Go figure.
Fivo Asia