Development Cycle Archive
Thread: Crafting Experimentation Changes... resolution.
JustG wrote:
End of the story first.
We are going to revert the Experimentation changes. They are baked into P7, which goes out tomorrow morning, but we will take them out with a hotfix Wednesday morning.
I would like to take you through the process so you have a little behind-the-scenes insight into how this has come about.
You should know the history of the desire for this change from our side. We want to balance out the game as best as possible. Sometimes these balances come in the shape of a Nerf. A couple of weeks ago,we called a meeting because there was concern about the way this change would be seen by a majority of our players. The design team successfully argued their point, and we decided to move forward with the change, provided that we put up a post to the players explaining exactly what the changes entail. This post went to the coorespondents at the beginning of last week. After tweaking it with their feedback, it went out to the players on Friday. As we read over the responses, it became clear that the majority of the players were NOT in favor of these types of changes. I wanted to take the weekend to read through and reflect on the communities response. We did. The community does not welcome the experimentation changes.
As a rule, we are trying to enact changes that are fun to the game. This one was not fun. Publish 7 is staged to go out tomorrow, and the crafting changes are baked into Publish 7. However, we will revert the changes on Wednesday morning (unless something critical comes up as a result of the publish... in which case we will revert them out as soon as possible.)
This is an opportunity for you all to play with the changes for a day, so in case we ever want to go down this road again, you will better understand what it is we want to do.
Thanks for the professional responses to this issue.
Best,
- g
I just want to know what you are going to do with the schematics that are being made with this new system? It gives an unfair advantage to those that have the extra skillpoints. I was willing to accept the changes, though now I am very disappointed that SOE allowed the changes to go to live so that people with the 12 experimentation points can take advantage of them. This will put me further behind, because now I won't be able to match those schematics with the old system.
Potnik
I'm really starting to wonder why I bother with SWG any more. The one profession I truly enjoyed (smuggler) now has 2 of their 4 attacks nerfed to worthlessness. The jedi system (the one thing I have left to work towards) is bunk. And now the Test Center feedback simply goes unheeded (and this is not the first time). Bugs that have existed on the FIRST DAY OF RELEASE are still rampant -- 25% of upper level bounty hunter missions are still bugged (I actually had a mark disappear on me while I was fighting him), I still slide all over the place when I sit down, creature AI is still buggy and exploitable, exploits are still ruining gameplay and the economy.
But at least I have my Chef Hat!
Nothing like a personal attack to avoid discussing the issues ....
Suva
The system is very advantagous to me. As a master architect with (literally) tons of uber materials in my inventory AND 11 experimentation points (working on 12), I'm in great shape.
But, I'm glad this is being taken out of the game.
1. It plain old slaughters any noob architects. No Way can thy compete with me if this is how things work.
2. The problems with legacy weapons and armor remains.
If they can fix problem #2, they can put the new crafting back in and make people happy. But they should not delude themselves into thinking that this is anything other than noob-hatred of the first order.
So: Good riddance. Good for me, but bad (very bad) for the game.
ThalenCynelles wrote:
Burr, if there's anyone still playing SWG that doesn't know what the term powergamer means when applied to this game, I'd be.... well, there's no need for me to be anything. There's not a soul around that doesn't know who I'm talking about or couldn't name 100 characters off the tops of their heads that are one.
Thank you for such a useful contribution to this thread, btw. You wanna call someone ignorant, you better back it up with your "A" game and prove to everyone here that the people who qulaify for my 'generic' term aren't the ones who've been destroying the game since Beta 3. I've got over a year's worth of gameplay reports, changes, forum posts, quitting reasons, reviews and suchto back me up. And I'm the ignorant one? Don't make me laugh.
You say powergamers ruin the game. I say powergamers make this game, and have made the entire genre. Powergamers are the ones that find the bugs, powergamers are the ones that know the issues, powergamers are the ones that log 40 hours a week playing and stress all the systems. You blaming all the problems on powergamers is naive and stupid.Don't use a blanket statement to cover everyone that you think ruins the game because it just isn't true. I have played about5, 6, 7,8hours adays for weeks on end now. I have been a powergamer. Tell me how my logging in and playing and grinding and having fun the way I like ruins the game for anyone.
The economy isn't destroyed because of powergamers. The economy is destroyed because not enough care was taken with it before the game was released. A week before the game was going gold they were still tweaking mission payouts. That doesn't scream of good long term planning. If there are ways to get rich quick and efficiently, players are going to use that method. Adding in a nerf to experimentation now isn't going to fix the economy. All that accomplishes is pissing off the people that play the game.The whole system is screwed and adding in bits and pieces here and there isn't going to fix the issue. If they want to fix the economy (which quite frankly is probably broken beyond repair now), than they need to dedicate a few publishes to it and not some weak fix that they can be talked out of when the players have to point out how stupid it is.
You have brought no proof to back up anything you have said. "Only 10% ever read the forums." proof please? "Powergamers ruin it." proof please? You ask me to bring my "A-Game", I ask you to bring any game. Making broad generalizations about a particular playstyle that you apparently don't participate in or even remotely understand doesn't count.
ThalenCynelles wrote:
Dev Team,
Shame on you for lacking the courage to stand your ground before the boisterous voices of the few and the overly vocal; the powergamers that have been killing Galaxies since Beta 3 was opened to them. To FFXI, WoW, or wherever with them, their $14.95 a month, and their hundreds of millions (billions?) of farmed credits which are the reason the economy's destroyed in the first place.
Remember, even with the most liberal of numbers, only 10% of a program's users ever post to the forums.
::in a boisterous voice, since it's the only thing Devs seam to hear:: LEAVETHE CHANGES IN AND LET THE POWERGAMERS OUT!!!
Ubers may begin their flames here, as if I give a carrion spat's tailfeather about what they have to say...
Hi! I'm not a powergamer, nor do I have credits numbering in the millions. My Doctor is not "uber" in any sense of the word, and I don't have hundreds of thousands of each resource type stockpiled.
I was completely against this change after having tested it on TC, and, after testing it some more on Live with my better-quality resources, I am STILL firmly against it and am glad it is being removed. I just spent the past two hours making test samples for all of my upper AND lower-end medic/doctor schematics, and even with my highest quality resources (upper 900's in all the stats that matter) and a couple extra experimentation points granted via skilltapes while sitting in a Research Center city by a +43 Crafting station...the results were terrible. In that research center (and with my Master Doctor skills), I was getting amazing successes several times during each experimentation round, and the final product STILL fell well below what was normal for me in the "old system".
Your post really doesn't even belong in this thread, since it was just a thinly-veiled attack against "powergamers" and had little or nothing to do with the subject, which you obviously didn't research fully if at all.
Having said that, I applaud the devs for taking everything into consideration here and revoking the changes. As they stand, they just aren't acceptable. I like the base concept, but the implementation just wasn't right. Better luck next time, I suppose.
-Omawna
I started testing the change about a half hour after the servers came up. All I can say is that I'm so glad I opposed this. This change does nothing that the pro-change people claimed it would.
1) Diversity in goods. Well, there most certainly is more diversity. There is what 12 pointers can make and then there's comparative garbage.
2) Help the ailing economy. If this means putting small shop crafters out of business and discouraging anyone without 12 experimentation points from entering a crafting field that relies on experimentation ... then this change would have been a huge success. Fewer competitive places to shop and grossly inflated prices. Sounds like an economic recipe for success to me.
3) Hurt the power gamers. The only group of players this change would have helped are the power gamers. This change would have made it such that only the existing monopolies could survive. 4) Decrease the power of players in combat. Not likely given the high quality nature of stockpiled resources. If anything, it would have made players slightly stronger for quite some time. Even if they fiddled with resource stats, frequency, and spawn percentages.
5) Make crafting more interesting. If you redefine interesting as meaning a pointlessly depressing exercise in futility, then I'd have to agree.
6) Level the playing field. The amount this change would have widened the gap between the have and have-nots is phenomenal. Pretty much as level a playing field as Dathomir.
I am extremely pleased the Dev Team read and considered the arguments presented by both sides of this issue. Ifeel stronglythat they made the correct decision in rescinding the change. While I am glad they gave everyone the opportunity, I am also concerned about the schematics produced during the period this has been live. Of course, it wouldn't take much for them to just do a 24 hour rollback and make that problem go away. 
) -, even although I really liked the changes, but you left the MAJORITY of players blind and unable to give you their opinions) and that's not the way it should be... If this game is supposed to be player based as you just showed us, then YOU HAVE TO make some polls in the game... That would get what you want - the opinion of the majority, on which even democracy itself is built on.
Well i have to say i signed the petition to stop the changes to crafting.. Ive been a master weaponsmith since JULY while i worked hard to get to the level im at.. I still log on take time to respond to emails answer questions repair peoples weapons.. i have alot of customers and let me tell you why i have alot of customers my vendors are always stocked im always working and i try and make my customers happy thats how i became successful.
DEV- Thanks for listening to us.. I have to say you guys are really making a game to be proud of and im glad i have the opportunity to play it.
Well, well ...
Good Morning !
It's been quite awhile since I've read 15 pages at one sitting on a single topic. Seems to be my chance to have a "final word" or two ...
Criticals-- every crafter's curse: The "5%" was always a fantasy ... on high quality equipment with high quality ores and componentsthis Master Artisan/Master Architect, over time, sawmore than 5% overall.
Consider that 1) Most materials are still lost on assembly crits ... 2) A critical on the first experimentation zeroed the item with norecovery ... 3) Any subsequent critical always had more negative effect than any "amazing" success. All of which certainly argued for the use of schemas and factories ... The real gut issue it seems to me is simply that criticals are apparently random -- not related to skill level, res or equipment quality. The ability to craft an item is dependent on skill and level, but the capability to craft successfully is not. Perhaps the "Critical fix" will really do just that -- we may know by Monday.
Professional differences: There seem to be at least some crafting differences between professions. Posts here seem to support that idea -- and I've climbed the trees or dabbled in all the artisan-related professions. Yetshouldn't those differencesbe in resources, schematics and outputs -- not in the conceptual mechanics of "crafting" -- and certainly not achieved byfiddling with random effects (e.g. criticals)??
Inflation: Yes, it's starting to affect the small businesses, the individual owner-operators, the "other" players.
The resources that used to sell for 2-3 cpu (yes, I was here in June), recently 3-4 cpu, now sell for 5-10 cpu -- because the money is out there to pay that and more. The simple consequence if I have to buy resources for crafting? The speeder costs, not 20k at 3 per, but 60k at 9 per -- Sixty thousand issimply not a competitive pricefor a Speeder or a Small House.You can only sell at a loss if you don't intend to stay in business ...
Remember the Old Bazaar? That 25 item limit kept the Baz from being overwhelmed completely by novice goods that novice crafters had to make. Too many goods chasing too little (interested) money. Couldn't give stuff away. The "experiment" change helped fix that problem -- fewer goods actually made, generally better stuff for sale. The actual result was probably close to the intended result.
Consider the New Bazaar: Greater quantities of goods moving at generally higher prices. Good, yes? Yet one probably unintended result wasthe base price for +1 Arm/Clothing mod items jumped from 3000 (previous Baz limit) to 6000 (new Baz limit), just like that. Not much difference if you're spending 10 million -- but if you're spending 10 million, it's probably on the Forum auctions anyway.... Wonder how many players know that most high-credit commerceis modulated on the Forums ??
Costs: Now we have too much money chasing too few goods. High-mod skills tapes and high quality resources are incredibly expensive -- demand fueledby ... 1) the "Holocron grind", the need to "get through" as many professions as required with attendant resource demands, itself an attempt to engage players in the "rest of the system" ... 2) the many ways around the "lot limit" -- especially cross-server exchanges, lot selling, etc. that while wonderfully entrepenurial, do seem to eliminate the need forgroups of people to band togetherand thus allow something unintended ...3)player's ingenuity in gathering maximum (mostly combat) rewards from the system, mission, creature or exploit ... 4) And our abiding interest in "the best" weapons, armor and equips.
A game for the rest of us: My compliments to the powergamers: they're playing their game full out. They're dedicated, they're vocal. I admire their accomplishments-- and yes, we've one in the family. Their game activities justify many of the long hours that went into, go into the hundreds of SWG specials. They arethe rich and super-rich of SWG able to spend millions on a whim, an idea, on the new thing .... not unlike r-l come to think of it ....
Point is, a great manyus are out of that game. We do not have, do not expect to have, 10 mil to spend on enhancements for our Krayt dragon adventure. We probably won't master 20 professions. We aren't "passing through" artisan on the way to #23. We can't sell at a loss until the next profession because we're in our chosen professions -- artisans,weaponsmiths, armorsmiths, chefs, tailors, droid engineers, architects, doctors, lawyers .. well, you get the idea. My compliments to the lady who's mastering armorsmithing, happy when her product improves, delighted to make a sale. I doubt she has 10 mil, or more than 10 lots. We're themiddle class of SWG. We're playing a different game.
And no one likes to work hard-- onlyto lose ground or be squeezed out of the game.
Here's the challenge: "Powergamers" are usually first in, they push the boundaries,making the game much of what it becomes ---and, statistically, you always lose them to the "next big game". The quality of the galaxy you createfor the "middle class" will largely determine how long SWG graces our screens. Can you create continual wonders for the ubers yet maintain a reasonably consistent, rewarding, yet still expanding galaxy fpr the rest of us ??
Although some are still trying (ENB for instance) -- No game has ever successfully bridged that duality.
Developers: If you've made it this far this early in the morning, you've certainly earned a compliment!! I like your game enough to have made it my game (the source of passion for us all here).
I suspect a great deal of thought, hours of work --and considerable cash-- went into the update. My compliments to you each and all... for each one past and each to come, as well.
And yourwillingness to take another look at who you'd have us be?Priceless and appreciated.
My very best to you all ,
Suva
/kowtow;
/thank;
/dance;
Now to work on that Armorsmith...
Well you say that you don't support the power players and prefer to listen to the casual players, this proves otherwise. The horror to actually HAVE to use QUALITY materials to get a QUALITY product. Whats next the grinding power players don't like the idea of having to actually do the work in a profession to get master, so you'll patch in a get master now button? Hey why not go directly to get master jedi NOW button.
This is patch undoing is NOT a help to the SERIOUS CRAFTERS, but I guess that doesn't matter. So long as the 15 year old power players are happy we all should be.
Mater Artisen, Master DE