Development Cycle Archive

hey. i had an idea. let droid engineers actually craft a repair droid that doesn't count vs. your overall pet count, and have it actually repair mechanical devices.... like at-st's and vehicles. of course, no real combat bonuses and a low HAM would make it an easy target if you have the thing out while you're hunting, but even a slow repair on the at-st is better than none at all. heck, maybe even make it only repairable by a specai droid within 50 feet of a faction recruiter, we really don't give a crap. just make it so we can heal the wounds.

as far as the armor rating down... that's fine, the hams are bumped. should run just about the same in that respect.

one at a time? that's fine too, except for the people that bought 2 or 3. either base the max for faction pets on rank, or let us get a friggin refund.

FLAME DoT? .... no. Make those commandos switch between a mass-player killing weapon (ie flamethrower) and their rocket launcher to take down an at-st. Make them actually have to USE their heavy artillery once in a while, rather than buy a flamethrower and have that be their all-in-one weapon. Commandos, if i'm not mistaken, are supposed to have a wide variety of massively destructive weapons at their hands, and right now, they just have a big flamethrower, a broken acid rifle, a rocket launcher which just seems silly, since no one uses it, and some grenades which lag you for 30 seconds after throwing it. Bah, i'm not even a commando and i can tell the class is screwed.

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DeQuosaek wrote:

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ur86d wrote:

The Devstalked the talk about how SW:G was going to be a trend setter in the MMOG genre, but when it came time to walk the walk, they showed us that they were nothing but followers.

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How's that? They took out a known exploit... How is that so much diferent from all the other MMOG's out there? They did what needed to be done. Stop being such whiny crybabies. Seriously.

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What known exploit would that be ? or a better question for you is,do you know what an exploit is? using AT-ST's to camp spawns is not an exploit if thats what you mean.and i might add spawn camping would not be an option if they didn't put in "uber" loot to begin with.

Secondly yes, you are right this game is no different then any other MMOG out there, which was my point when i stated what you quoted, even though SW:G's devs claimed it would be different then all the rest, Graphicly they were correct, but everywhere else they weren't

Greetings to one and all,

I have been reading this tread for some time now and seen a lot of people say a lot of things.

But i have a small point to make if you all bear with me a sec

I am an imperial yes there is no shame in saying that

I have seen the DEV's try and look at all kinds of stuff about the AT-ST, but has anybody ever looked not at the device it self but at the FP value it has ?

Before youy start screaming "we know what is cost !"

here is a small idee as a rebel take 9415 FP and line up what you can have as pets (I know you can't in game not anought pet slots but use paper or your mindseys if you can ).

See it ?

Now turn (the paper) around and look at me and my 1 AT-ST !!

This is the real point the 1 AT-ST represense all this firepower and manpower and gets killed with 1 to 2 shots in 30 sec.

Can you now see why imperials get a little upset when the lose one.

Not a real problem with changing the AT-ST but i would like people to remenber how much 9415 FP realy is

And that is for a human now dubble or tripple that for a alien race

Still think the imperials are whiners ?

I realy would like to offer the same number in in troops.

I would like to see massive battles where 2 groups of faction pets attack each other but as i will be able to have only 1, which oneis that going tobe ?

none

AsAT-ST get killed in 30 sec

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ViralFett wrote:

OK, after reading the first like 2 pages of this thread, I am amazed by the number of people saying an AT-ST cannot be taken out by fire "because it is metal"... do you know anything about war and how flame throwers are used?

First lets establish what an AT-ST *IS*::

It IS a Metal box on legs, inside of this box are teh AT-ST Pilots.

Second lets establish how flamethrowers are used in war::

They ARE menat to *SUFFOCATE* their targets, NOT burn them! This works because they heat up a building/tanks(closed area made up of something like concrete or metal) to teh point taht there is barely any oxygen inside! This was used against Japanese Pill boxes in WWII

Thirdly lets put teh two together!!::

A flamethrower is used against an AT-ST which we established is a metal box, piloted by living beings(who need oxygen)... The AT-ST gets so hot from teh flame being applied to it that in mere seconds(it only took about 3 seconds for a flamethrower to empty a pill box of air)... So, there is no air in teh cockpit of this AT-ST....how are the pilots breathing? also, the pilots probably don't have time to hold their breathe so it wont take time for them to suffocate...

In Conclusion:

We have used your very reason for them being impervious to fire against you with Proven tactics from REAL wars.... I

BUT, as far as I remember I *NEVER* saw flamethrowers used in ANY starwars movie... and I have never heard of them in *ANY* star wars books...

So.... are flamethrowers really going along with the star wars theme? I'd say not.... are AT-STs impervious to fire? I know the answer to this is a negative, based on historical knowledge.

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You don't think a 'tank' intended for use on different planets with their own atmospheres mightbe environmentally sealed? I mean, the poor bastards inside would have frozen to death on Hoth by your logic. Or you thinkthat the respirator on the pilot's helmet - part of his sealed suit of stormtrooper armor - is just there for looks? I mean, come on... you can surely think of a better argument than that.

I'm sorry but it's just stupid for a singleflamethrower hitto damage themfive times morethan a rocket launcheror anti-vehicular mine.

And,to the people saying 'but 40k more HAM is a huge buff!', you're missing the point. As long as flame damage cuts straight through the armor to do 20k burn damage/wounds per hit, they're useless. As they stand now, a 19k HAM AT-ST versus a limited ammo, ~4000 damage perhit particle beam cannon or rocket launcher is perfectly balanced. A 59k HAM AT-ST not only makes these anti-vehicular weaponsutterlyineffectualagainst it, but it also remains vulnerable to the armor-ignoring flamethrower to such a high degree people are still gonna store them at the first sign of PvP.

For the 3rd time, the flamethrower specials are the problem, not that AT-ST! Specifically, the fact burn damage ignores armor for no reason.

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Matsubaa wrote:

I personally stopped going Overt for a long time because at the time, the AT-ST was utterly invincible. To go up against it, or any player wielding it, meant death. There was no question about it whatsoever and people were joining the Imperial faction not because of roleplay but because they just wanted to be able to take the AT-ST and go slaughter NPCs and PCs alike, earning millions upon millions of credits in the process. It wasn't a tool of the Empire, it was the ultimate meta-game griefing tool. The economy is *still* reeling from that influx of cash and lots of people *still* won't go Overt because of the precedent that was set. The Imperials were unbeatable and judging from the whining and crying on the boards, they thought that's the way it should be. Not that we should be two sides in a massive conflict but that Rebels should be gnats to be swatted. It was as-if they, as players, fell for the Emperor's propaganda.

So please, Devs, don't make the AT-ST easy to kill. Don't make it impossible to kill either. Don't make it the one-shot, one-kill monster that it was, but don't make it useless.

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So... you're saying people joined the empire because they wanted an easy route to power? Y'see, to me this makes perfect sense from a realism/roleplay point of view. People didn't join the alliance because of the faction perks in the movie, yet in the game they want to both be a rebel hero, yet also be on an even footing with the empire. They say they want realism, imperials patrolling in the streets, and a sense of the galaxy been held in an iron grip, but they also want to win every PvP encounter they choose to participate in.

Currently,the empire isn't really an easy route to power, since creature handler pets do a similar job as an AT-ST, and don't take 2 weeks to earn or die permanently in 60 seconds to a flame dot.

I'd rather see an obvious incentive for players to join the empire, since they really should be winning PvP in general if this is supposed to feel anything like the movies. Rebels should be beating a hasty retreat when spotted rather than controlling whole cities. You didn't see Han and Chewie going to stand outside theemperor's front door and kill dark troopers for 6 weeks.It would befair, because anyone can choose or change their faction.

To the people who are advocating that Flame DOTs are valid due to the pilots suffocating, find an "AT-ST Helmet."

See the little box at the end of the two hoses poking out the bottom? Those aren't for decoration - that's a breathing/communication apparatus to help the ST function in lower-oxygen environments.

The thing is a WALKING MECHANIZED TANK, PEOPLE. The only thing that should take it out are rockets, and heavy AP weapons, for Christ's sake - not fire. The only thing napalm would do to a heavily-armored vehicle would be to POSSIBLE discolor the metal. That's it.

So stop trying to argue semantics. The Rebels outnumber Imperials over 2 to 1, in STRICT violation of canon. The only way they could bring these down is to TRIP them in RotJ with LOGS. I'm a master commando myself, and I have NO problems with other Rebel commandos taking my ST down with heavy weapons, but a flamethrower, against a TANK? Do yourself a favor, devs, go online to General Dynamics' website and find the division that makes the M1A1 Main Battle Tank (it's the Land Systems Division). Send an email to [email protected]and ask them just what effect a flamethrower would HAVE on one of their hermetically sealed NBC-hardened MBTs - the answer: NONE.

But who am I kidding, when it comes down to it, it's all:

"I am Rebel, hear me whine, in numbers too big too ignore!" AND IF YOU DON'T CHANGE IT, I'LL CANCEL MY SUBSCRIPTION. Don't give in this time, devs, otherwise soon you'll have a game where there are NO Imperials and it'll be like a single-sided RPG.

Don't kill the game. This is just ANOTHER POINT you're conceding. When's it gonna end? When the HELL is it going to END?

Death doesn't fly a JSF anymore...he flies a Gallente Thorax in EVE Online

Hey Julio, I'm proudly "resistant to change"
Since people seem to like my space loot thread, here's a link to it.

I am one of the few imps that firmly believethat ATSTs bring an unequaled element of firepower to nearly every situation. I also agree that ATSTs are not likely to arbitrarily attackmostcreatures in PvE. The EXCEPTION being if they attack you first! Hell I even agree that ATSTs need to be nerfed to high freakin heaven and back again (or most major combat classes need a dramatic boost to seriously compete or that faction points on ATSTs need to be raised even higher or rebels need to have a unique anti-ATST tactic they can employ, etc) So I agree with most of the arguments that the rebel majority have and undoubtablely the devers have been listening since game inception.

However, as a power player who understands the ongoing game mechanics well, the strengths and weaknesses of both factions, I was one of the very few who left the alliance to join the empire. So after leaving my rebel guild, my rebel colonel rank, my 60K+ rebel faction points,pets, armor and ALL OF MY REBEL FRIENDS, I went off and earned my very first golden ATST the hard way.

I didnt have faction buddies, mega money or exploits that did the work for me. Anyone who has ever had to make up that -5000 neutral faction killing pirates, assassins and thugs can tell you these missions downright suck and are ridiculously buggy (and the faction payoff for neutrals is just miserable) So it is now coming as shock and with complete disbelief that the devs would remove ATSTsfrom PvE.

However, my argument is not that one particular game element is too powerful than another (I am already convinced) My argument is one of timing, relevance and breaking what I consider at least three of the tenets of good programming. I should know, because I am a RL computer programmer

Simplicity - Keep it simple/harmless now andthen increase the complexity/power as needed later.

Language and syntax allowing of course, it is far better to give a rhino 20K HAM than take 20K HAM away from a rhino. You are certainly going todisappoint a lot less users. If anything the coding is easier because you will have more time to "add an enhancement" at a later date than to "silently nerf" something now when there are better things to work on. As any good programmer can tell you,more time to codeis exponentially better than no foresight. I can overcome nearly any unforeseen change given enough code-time, mountain dew and techno music. So with complete dereliction or lack of foresight it pays to keep things simple and intentionally underpowered in the first place. Something everyone should learn from the ATST mistake.

Inheritance - You cannot dramatically alter a single element ofa class(in this case combat involving ATSTs in PvE) without indirectly altering all other facets of the final, inherited class (large-scale combat mechanics)

How can you honestly say ATSTs need more nerfing when so many other related facets of combat are broke (classes, specials, creature AI, combat droids, any sense of strategic terrain, etc), are still being fixed or have not even been addressed yet? Exactly what would you nerf and how much nerfing is required? In other words, it does not make any sense to nerf a major element of ATSTs that is agreeably more powerful (but working) rather than first fixingthe related elements which are not working as intended and that need to be more powerful or weaker than originally planned. And I am one of the few imps thatagree that ATSTs need serious nerfing, but adamantly disagree with anyone that claims to know precisely how much nerfing is required or that this is even the right time to nerf ANYTHING yet.

Logic - Re-writing several routines once and now is better than re-writing several separate routines over time

If ATSTs arestilltoo powerful, then they havealways been too powerful and should have been fixed the last time the major parent function was opened and the code was analyzed. This avoids bloated or spaghettii algorithms and saves time having to go back and edit the same routines or variables to fix what you already knowwas the original problem(i.e. ATSTs need nerfing).

However, by nerfing ATSTs again another deviation from logic is clearly indicated. And that is if ATSTs have indeedrisen in power, it is only as a result of the exterior game mechanics weakeningand not the ATST itself (because ATSTs have only grown weaker).So the logical argument that ATSTs again need to be "nerfed for gameplaybalance" is too late or early to again be relevant in my very humble opinion. Strengthen/fix the underlying game mechanics first and then nerf the hell out of ATSTs if they still need it.

TH, you said:
In my original AT-ST thread, the majority of players wanted to remove AT-ST’s from PvE, except in cases of Faction Missions and we agree with you.

Well of course they wanted them removed, the majority of players are rebels. If the stated goal is really to try to figure out why more people don't become imps and make it more attractive to do so, I think you're overestimating the "fun" people derive from short sighted changes that are made for assinine reasons. Basically, to get more imps, make imps better than they currently are, not worse.

And in your Stat's about the games professions and faction you said We need to find a way to make people join The Empire well this is certianly not helping, I know many imperials will be leaving The Empire now because of this, Good move.

And rebels you say how your faction pets are useless well you dont pay 9K faction points to lose it in 5seconds.

I leave reading all the imps crying about this...

"Great, now my ATST can be taken out by a commando!"

How about how easily an ATST can take out any single player? Mostly within a shot or two.

"But AT-STs have perma death! That's not fair!"

Umm, hate to break it to you, but all faction pets have perma death. Why should ATSTs be any different?

Wait, I didn't see the one whining about not being able to solo krayts and force crystal hunters... I think you guys missed that one.

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DeQuosaek wrote:

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Mordib1 wrote:

I want to be able to turn this AT-ST back into my factional recruiter for a full refund of my faction points.

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Ok, so let's just say they give you back the faction points... What exactly would you use them on anyway? If all faction pets are useless what good are faction points? Are you going to buy furniture?

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If they refunded people for things that got nerfed

1) Theyd take on an impossible task

2) CSRs would become an official pawn shop, where people can bring their junk in exchange for cash

3) It would set a precedent