Development Cycle Archive
Thread: Crafting Experimentation Changes... resolution.
Neilla
Tue Mar 16, 2004 2:43 pm
#313
bullitt394 wrote:Well you say that you don't support the power players and prefer to listen to the casual players, this proves otherwise. The horror to actually HAVE to use QUALITY materials to get a QUALITY product. Whats next the grinding power players don't like the idea of having to actually do the work in a profession to get master, so you'll patch in a get master now button? Hey why not go directly to get master jedi NOW button.
This is patch undoing is NOT a help to the SERIOUS CRAFTERS, but I guess that doesn't matter. So long as the 15 year old power players are happy we all should be.
Mater Artisen, Master DE
I'm getting a little tired of people whining about whiners and I'm rather insulted by the notion that this was opposed primarily by 'grinding power-player.'
I'm a master architect and I've been a master architect since week 3. The patch wouldn't affect me in the least; architect is single-line crafting and I don't think I'd see much change in my products. It might even help me, since I've got a large stockpile of 950+ materials for harvesters. And I've got a second combat character I play sporadically. In preparation for the nerf, he stockpiled 11 suits of armor and 50 weapons.
So I really didn't have anything riding at all on which way the devs went and, possibly, I'm better off with the nerf.
The huge, unresolvable problems with this patch are 1) the huge existing stock of pre-nerf weapons and armor which would change this from a crafting economy to a legacy economy; and 2) the huge barriers this would place in the way of new crafters who might not have 20 million lying around to buy +20 worth of experimentation tapes. I do not think these would be good for the game.
There is not a word of cogent argument in your posting (or in any of several dozen similar posting), just insults and invective.
Slayermat2
Tue Mar 16, 2004 3:12 pm
#314
DreddBane wrote:
I am amazed that they are removing the change the day after...i guess that everyone but me has done much research on it allready b4 it went life....All i know...that for the week prior to the patch everyone went around paniking and yelling nerf. From what i read i welcomed the new change. But it seems that the game is for grinders, powerplayers and everyone who wants the easy way. If i complain enough can i get all crit fails removed from the game? Looks like its back to normal bizz and getting 4 or 5 crit fails in a row for masters. I have yet to try the new changes out...and frankly..im not going to bother..since they are changing them back anyhow.....i am so glad that they made the changes and putting them back b4 a whole day is out...they could of been working on the bugs we had since the start...but catering to the powerplayers and grinders is much more important. Why dont we skip all the experimenting and different quality resources, skip all different experience trees....and just give everyone one grinding stone to craft till they get enough exp to master. then automaticaly make maxed out items. OH and i almost forgot...get rid of crit fails, make jedi easier to get..and master, get rid of TEF's and make macro's for grinding,looting,surveying and crafting (so i dont have to be near my keybaord to play till i am master) allready made in each char datapad or something...
The old system is broke...the new system isnt going to be used...so we are back to being broken...we must wait more months to fix it.....Its obvious to me that none of the devs are crafters.
i allready said more then i meant to...and im sorry to vent on you peeps. Something needs to be done..but i am not holding my breath. So lets all just get back to playing in our own ways and try to have fun becouse at least half of the gamers will not like any changes.
Well, I was going to make my first ever "**edit** Post" on the forum here. I will not do that and simply state that I agree with the above. As well as many others here. People did not like the combat change that is going in over 4 or so publishes either, but we no longer hear any bitching about that do we? The devs do know what they are doing. As much as people may not agree with that, it is true. If this game was put together by the players alone, I really doubt we would still be playing it. This is one thing the devs should not have backed down on.
OK, one little rant.
If we get enough people here to show support of the new system, can we get a hot fix to put it back in on Thursday?
JodanLoo
Tue Mar 16, 2004 3:16 pm
#315
Subject1:
Quote:
>> Well you say that you don't support the power players and prefer to listen to the casual players, this proves otherwise.
>> The horror to actually HAVE to use QUALITY materials to get a QUALITY product.
Dude, don't you know that lots of required resources for schematics spawn every single time with almost the same stats and *never* a really high value in the stat you need? How does nerfing only newly crafted item quality across the board (at least items which require resources that never existed with high qualities) help anyone?
I see no problem whatsoever with having experimentation maximums directly and linearly related to resource quality. Non-master crafters already didn't have enough experimentation points to make full use of high quality resources, where was the imbalance? Can someone please explain it to me!? To the master crafters complaining about not having enough of an advantage over non-masters: what are you thinking?? Having access to the schematics at master level as well as having more experimentation points is plenty enough of an advantage!
As for making crafting more interesting so people will feel inclined to spend experimentation points on stuff besides damage on weapons for example, the fix to this has much more to do with combat mechanics and buffs than crafting.
Here's a couple examples off the top of my head:
damage/speed vs ham cost:
Option #1:
Have super low ham cost weapon with low damage/speed so you can *sort of* spam low damage specials without buffs.
Option #2:
Have high damage/speed weapon with high ham cost and get buffed by a master doctor so you can spam high damage specials for near/zero ham cost (and grind money missions to afford a constant supply of buffs easily).
As someone said earlier, only a masochistic freak would choose option #1.
damage/speed vs durability:
Option #1:
Have high durability and low/medium damage/speed items in hopes of getting more bang for your buck because you're too (pick one: cheap, lazy, ignorant, masochistic) to do some of the many many high paying destroy missions on the adventure planets so you'd rather do crazed durni missions for the rest of your life.
Option #2:
Have high damage/speed weapon with low durability, go grind hundreds of thousands of creds doing destroy missions for a while (which goes faster with a high damage/speed weapon than otherwise), and then go buy another high damage/speed weapon once it wears out.
Ditto about option #1.
Subject2:
I see people saying that player crafted item qualities are too high right now and people are too strong in relation to creatures/npcs. I think you people may be thinking this because so many mobs were nerfed hard in the last so-called combat and creature handler related 'balance' that people with mastered combat professions can go out and win easily against them.
These people obviously haven't been to the geonosian cave or any other spot with truly tough mobs and had to fight one solo for at least a minute or so. Trust me, there's *plenty* of stuff you can go and try to solo with the most 'uber' multi-combat-profession template you can think of and the best armor available and best buffs possible and get absolutely destroyed by them.
You people are also probably some of the ones who think that a creature that cons instant-death should not be solo-able (assuming they can actually get in range to attempt to hit you). When something /considers as instant death and you can beat it into the ground it doesn't necessarily mean the game is imbalanced, it almost invariably means that the code behind /consider is too SIMPLISTIC.
Subject3:
With regards to weapons: I saw someone suggest that they split damage and speed into their own experimentation pools. This is not a good idea.
It's all about how much damage you can do over a given period of time. If they split damage and speed into separate pools all they'll do is blanket nerf weapons.. weaponsmiths will still try to maximize damage and speed (mostly equally) instead of spending points in any of the other pools.
Phew, sorry for the long post! *Dons ye-old fireproof blanket*
Quote:
>> Well you say that you don't support the power players and prefer to listen to the casual players, this proves otherwise.
>> The horror to actually HAVE to use QUALITY materials to get a QUALITY product.
Dude, don't you know that lots of required resources for schematics spawn every single time with almost the same stats and *never* a really high value in the stat you need? How does nerfing only newly crafted item quality across the board (at least items which require resources that never existed with high qualities) help anyone?
I see no problem whatsoever with having experimentation maximums directly and linearly related to resource quality. Non-master crafters already didn't have enough experimentation points to make full use of high quality resources, where was the imbalance? Can someone please explain it to me!? To the master crafters complaining about not having enough of an advantage over non-masters: what are you thinking?? Having access to the schematics at master level as well as having more experimentation points is plenty enough of an advantage!
As for making crafting more interesting so people will feel inclined to spend experimentation points on stuff besides damage on weapons for example, the fix to this has much more to do with combat mechanics and buffs than crafting.
Here's a couple examples off the top of my head:
damage/speed vs ham cost:
Option #1:
Have super low ham cost weapon with low damage/speed so you can *sort of* spam low damage specials without buffs.
Option #2:
Have high damage/speed weapon with high ham cost and get buffed by a master doctor so you can spam high damage specials for near/zero ham cost (and grind money missions to afford a constant supply of buffs easily).
As someone said earlier, only a masochistic freak would choose option #1.
damage/speed vs durability:
Option #1:
Have high durability and low/medium damage/speed items in hopes of getting more bang for your buck because you're too (pick one: cheap, lazy, ignorant, masochistic) to do some of the many many high paying destroy missions on the adventure planets so you'd rather do crazed durni missions for the rest of your life.
Option #2:
Have high damage/speed weapon with low durability, go grind hundreds of thousands of creds doing destroy missions for a while (which goes faster with a high damage/speed weapon than otherwise), and then go buy another high damage/speed weapon once it wears out.
Ditto about option #1.
Subject2:
I see people saying that player crafted item qualities are too high right now and people are too strong in relation to creatures/npcs. I think you people may be thinking this because so many mobs were nerfed hard in the last so-called combat and creature handler related 'balance' that people with mastered combat professions can go out and win easily against them.
These people obviously haven't been to the geonosian cave or any other spot with truly tough mobs and had to fight one solo for at least a minute or so. Trust me, there's *plenty* of stuff you can go and try to solo with the most 'uber' multi-combat-profession template you can think of and the best armor available and best buffs possible and get absolutely destroyed by them.
You people are also probably some of the ones who think that a creature that cons instant-death should not be solo-able (assuming they can actually get in range to attempt to hit you). When something /considers as instant death and you can beat it into the ground it doesn't necessarily mean the game is imbalanced, it almost invariably means that the code behind /consider is too SIMPLISTIC.
Subject3:
With regards to weapons: I saw someone suggest that they split damage and speed into their own experimentation pools. This is not a good idea.
It's all about how much damage you can do over a given period of time. If they split damage and speed into separate pools all they'll do is blanket nerf weapons.. weaponsmiths will still try to maximize damage and speed (mostly equally) instead of spending points in any of the other pools.
Phew, sorry for the long post! *Dons ye-old fireproof blanket*
Tinlain
Tue Mar 16, 2004 3:21 pm
#316
Too funnny. I made armor with exact same subs as before the patch. gained 2% base. made all subs and the piece and gained 6%.
See ya winers only nerfed yourselves.
Instead of crying before somthing is even realeased maybe ya should keep your Piehole shut till ya evaulate what the actual changes are going to do.
Hope your proud.
Fyi ill be making schems to make sets of this armor.. be prepared to pay jumbo money for the best armor now.. So I should really be thanking you. since im a master and making the stuff now once the change reverts you will NEVER be able to make armor as good and the piles of schems im squirling away. Seems like ya created what ya feared most. post/pre /post patch stuff for me to sell.
LOL thanks for the many more millions ill make now.
Thanks cause now youll never be able to match my stats.
Yeah guess ill jump on the bandwagon now... "Change it back"
Lol Too funny.
All ya accomplished was to make a bad economy even worse.
Props to all the whiners ya just nerfed yourself.
See ya winers only nerfed yourselves.
Instead of crying before somthing is even realeased maybe ya should keep your Piehole shut till ya evaulate what the actual changes are going to do.
Hope your proud.
Fyi ill be making schems to make sets of this armor.. be prepared to pay jumbo money for the best armor now.. So I should really be thanking you. since im a master and making the stuff now once the change reverts you will NEVER be able to make armor as good and the piles of schems im squirling away. Seems like ya created what ya feared most. post/pre /post patch stuff for me to sell.
LOL thanks for the many more millions ill make now.
Thanks cause now youll never be able to match my stats.
Yeah guess ill jump on the bandwagon now... "Change it back"
Lol Too funny.
All ya accomplished was to make a bad economy even worse.
Props to all the whiners ya just nerfed yourself.
Galaxyburst
Tue Mar 16, 2004 3:37 pm
#317
Chrysalide wrote ;" We believe that the introduction of items with a wider variety of attributes will be a step leading to the leveling of the playing field between crafters"
I have done experimenting with this patch. By using the same good resources as yesterday(oq=991 and oq=981) I get incredible results which I only could get by using very rare resources (oq above 997), but only when I get "amazing results". So is this what Chrysalide means by leveling the crafting field: i.e. each resources have a chance generating amazing results (maximum results), the higher the corresponding attributes of the resouces the greater the chance.
If this is a fact then this is quite good for leveling the craftjng field (although communicated with the wrong words by SOE):i.e even those with really bad resources have a (low) chance generating max. results so he/she can compete with the best. Anybody else have generated amazing results (with low or high end resources) and got the maximum quality of the items ?
Galaxyburst
Phetro
Tue Mar 16, 2004 3:38 pm
#318
DreddBane wrote:
I am amazed that they are removing the change the day after...i guess that everyone but me has done much research on it allready b4 it went life....All i know...that for the week prior to the patch everyone went around paniking and yelling nerf. From what i read i welcomed the new change. But it seems that the game is for grinders, powerplayers and everyone who wants the easy way. If i complain enough can i get all crit fails removed from the game? Looks like its back to normal bizz and getting 4 or 5 crit fails in a row for masters. I have yet to try the new changes out...and frankly..im not going to bother..since they are changing them back anyhow.....i am so glad that they made the changes and putting them back b4 a whole day is out...they could of been working on the bugs we had since the start...but catering to the powerplayers and grinders is much more important. Why dont we skip all the experimenting and different quality resources, skip all different experience trees....and just give everyone one grinding stone to craft till they get enough exp to master. then automaticaly make maxed out items. OH and i almost forgot...get rid of crit fails, make jedi easier to get..and master, get rid of TEF's and make macro's for grinding,looting,surveying and crafting (so i dont have to be near my keybaord to play till i am master) allready made in each char datapad or something...
The old system is broke...the new system isnt going to be used...so we are back to being broken...we must wait more months to fix it.....Its obvious to me that none of the devs are crafters.
i allready said more then i meant to...and im sorry to vent on you peeps. Something needs to be done..but i am not holding my breath. So lets all just get back to playing in our own ways and try to have fun becouse at least half of the gamers will not like any changes.
No, they are reversing the EXPERIMENTATION CHANGES, but the critical failures will still be reduced. Those were two very different things--one is being removed, the other stays.
Crafting will no longer be broken! With the crit fails reduced for masters, it will finally work as intended.
Phetro
Tue Mar 16, 2004 3:52 pm
#319
Tinlain wrote:
Too funnny. I made armor with exact same subs as before the patch. gained 2% base. made all subs and the piece and gained 6%.
See ya winers only nerfed yourselves.
Instead of crying before somthing is even realeased maybe ya should keep your Piehole shut till ya evaulate what the actual changes are going to do.
Hope your proud.
Fyi ill be making schems to make sets of this armor.. be prepared to pay jumbo money for the best armor now.. So I should really be thanking you. since im a master and making the stuff now once the change reverts you will NEVER be able to make armor as good and the piles of schems im squirling away. Seems like ya created what ya feared most. post/pre /post patch stuff for me to sell.
LOL thanks for the many more millions ill make now.
Thanks cause now youll never be able to match my stats.
Yeah guess ill jump on the bandwagon now... "Change it back"
Lol Too funny.
All ya accomplished was to make a bad economy even worse.
Props to all the whiners ya just nerfed yourself.
LOL--this prepubescent attempt at reverse psychology has missed its mark I'm sure, along with your other posts.
People were testing this on live for quite some time, everyone--EVERYONE that tested it was against it.
But you knew that. I'm betting you have +2 experimentation points, and you wanted the nerf (and still do) because you know what an unfair advantage it would have given 12-point masters.
Galaxyburst
Tue Mar 16, 2004 3:57 pm
#320
Tinlain wrote:
Too funnny. I made armor with exact same subs as before the patch. gained 2% base. made all subs and the piece and gained 6%.
See ya winers only nerfed yourselves.
Instead of crying before somthing is even realeased maybe ya should keep your Piehole shut till ya evaulate what the actual changes are going to do.
Hope your proud.
Fyi ill be making schems to make sets of this armor.. be prepared to pay jumbo money for the best armor now.. So I should really be thanking you. since im a master and making the stuff now once the change reverts you will NEVER be able to make armor as good and the piles of schems im squirling away. Seems like ya created what ya feared most. post/pre /post patch stuff for me to sell.
LOL thanks for the many more millions ill make now.
Thanks cause now youll never be able to match my stats.
Yeah guess ill jump on the bandwagon now... "Change it back"
Lol Too funny.
All ya accomplished was to make a bad economy even worse.
Props to all the whiners ya just nerfed yourself.
Item stats wasn't the main concern for the most of the cons. Read the thread before you try to impress us with your "jumbo money".
Galaxyburst
Tinlain
Tue Mar 16, 2004 3:57 pm
#321
Phetro wrote:
Tinlain wrote:
Too funnny. I made armor with exact same subs as before the patch. gained 2% base. made all subs and the piece and gained 6%.
See ya winers only nerfed yourselves.
Instead of crying before somthing is even realeased maybe ya should keep your Piehole shut till ya evaulate what the actual changes are going to do.
Hope your proud.
Fyi ill be making schems to make sets of this armor.. be prepared to pay jumbo money for the best armor now.. So I should really be thanking you. since im a master and making the stuff now once the change reverts you will NEVER be able to make armor as good and the piles of schems im squirling away. Seems like ya created what ya feared most. post/pre /post patch stuff for me to sell.
LOL thanks for the many more millions ill make now.
Thanks cause now youll never be able to match my stats.
Yeah guess ill jump on the bandwagon now... "Change it back"
Lol Too funny.
All ya accomplished was to make a bad economy even worse.
Props to all the whiners ya just nerfed yourself.LOL--this prepubescent attempt at reverse psychology has missed its mark I'm sure, along with your other posts.
People were testing this on live for quite some time, everyone--EVERYONE that tested it was against it.
But you knew that. I'm betting you have +2 experimentation points, and you wanted the nerf (and still do) because you know what an unfair advantage it would have given 12-point masters.
Whatver ya think there bud. fact is your still broke and ill be making millions from you all. call me pre whatever. fact is i could buy and sell you many times... this just makes it easier.. lol sure take it out im all for it now my schems are made
Tinlain
Tue Mar 16, 2004 4:09 pm
#322
Galaxyburst wrote:
Tinlain wrote:
Too funnny. I made armor with exact same subs as before the patch. gained 2% base. made all subs and the piece and gained 6%.
See ya winers only nerfed yourselves.
Instead of crying before somthing is even realeased maybe ya should keep your Piehole shut till ya evaulate what the actual changes are going to do.
Hope your proud.
Fyi ill be making schems to make sets of this armor.. be prepared to pay jumbo money for the best armor now.. So I should really be thanking you. since im a master and making the stuff now once the change reverts you will NEVER be able to make armor as good and the piles of schems im squirling away. Seems like ya created what ya feared most. post/pre /post patch stuff for me to sell.
LOL thanks for the many more millions ill make now.
Thanks cause now youll never be able to match my stats.
Yeah guess ill jump on the bandwagon now... "Change it back"
Lol Too funny.
All ya accomplished was to make a bad economy even worse.
Props to all the whiners ya just nerfed yourself.Item stats wasn't the main concern for the most of the cons. Read the thread before you try to impress us with your "jumbo money".Galaxyburst
I could care less bout ham. i specialize in Pvp sets and everyone that buys it from me knows going in they will need buffs to wear it. Oh gee the set is 50 ham heavier. But i still get 200k more then the pre patch ones.
Hey change it back.. ive got what i need now
ZhiYoMin
Tue Mar 16, 2004 4:51 pm
#323
Tinlain wrote:
Too funnny. I made armor with exact same subs as before the patch. gained 2% base. made all subs and the piece and gained 6%.
See ya winers only nerfed yourselves.
Instead of crying before somthing is even realeased maybe ya should keep your Piehole shut till ya evaulate what the actual changes are going to do.
Hope your proud.
Fyi ill be making schems to make sets of this armor.. be prepared to pay jumbo money for the best armor now.. So I should really be thanking you. since im a master and making the stuff now once the change reverts you will NEVER be able to make armor as good and the piles of schems im squirling away. Seems like ya created what ya feared most. post/pre /post patch stuff for me to sell.
LOL thanks for the many more millions ill make now.
Thanks cause now youll never be able to match my stats.
Yeah guess ill jump on the bandwagon now... "Change it back"
Lol Too funny.
All ya accomplished was to make a bad economy even worse.
Props to all the whiners ya just nerfed yourself.
Leaving the change in for this one day so people so could "try it out"was a terrible decision devs. We have been telling you all along that the change was bad because it placed the necessity on obtaining skill tapes. The only MWSs reporting back better results are ones with extra experimentation points.
Now how are you going to deal with all of the schematics and weapons that were created during this 24 hour "trial" period???? Do we get to keep them?
I have extra experimentation points, but to be honest I am shocked that they would give a trial period in which people can stockpile stuff.
I almost wantthe devsto leave the changes in if for no other the reason than to balance out the12-point smiths who power grinded schematics today. Those schematics/weaponswillgive those smiths an evenfurther advantage in the market. May I remind you devs, that this was something you wanted to prevent in the first place. At least if you leave the change in then some daythe novice crafters of todaywill get tapes of their ownand can compete. I don't like this solution, but if it is truly a trial, should we honestly be allowed to keep the stuff we made today?
By doing this trial thing, you have madematters even worse.You have given 11 and 12-point smiths 24 hours to grind out as many weapons and schematics as possible before the hotfix. This is just silly. What kind of game are you playing with us?
Either leave the change in or take the weapons and schematics that were created today out. Can anyone honestly say that the "trial" period was a good thing for us?
Siekierah
XxMaddSeazyn
Tue Mar 16, 2004 5:10 pm
#324
Having played today with the changes, I'll tell you now. These changes, if they'd have stayed, I'd have gone. What a waste of time. And I agree, seems only the Masters are happy to keep the changes. Wonder why....
Nightghaunt666
Tue Mar 16, 2004 5:51 pm
#325
Speak for yourself Tinlain. I've been testing it on TC since it came out there and I strongly vote to KEEP the change. I can see beyond my own desires to make "perfect" items with ease and see the benefit of it overall. I’m not saying its perfect, I think the resources need an accompanying revamp along with this but at least this is a step in the right direction.