Development Cycle Archive

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KrYpToFoX wrote:
For all of the people arguing against TEFs..you need to stop thinking about how YOU want to always go out and do your OWN thing, without any consequences, and start thinking in terms of the GAME...

I think it would be a TRAVESTY if I, as a rebel player, had to sit and watch an Imperial player killing rebel NPC's left and right, without being able to do a damn thing about it. This is PRECICLY one of the things that killed Anarchy On-Line for me...people from the opposing side could swoop into our towns, kill all the NPC guards, laugh at us, and then swoop out, and we were not able to do a damn thing about it...

I think removing the TEF's totally breaks immersion, and removes all sense of realism, and reality from the game. It turns factional NPC's from individuals that people have some sdegree of respect for, to inanimate playthings that can be shot at for a players amusement. This is not the STAR WARS that I want to live in...I want REPROCUSSIONS for my actions, because those REPRECUSSIONS give MEANING to them...otherwise, without the TEF and other PvP "punishments", gameplay becomes boring, formulaic, and, ultimately, pointless.

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Meplorium wrote:

How about this, remove all TEFs form the game, especially group ones. Either you declare at a recruiter and can now PvP or you stay out of it completely. TEFs are just a wishy washy inbetween that leads to more griffing than anything else. Placement of more recruits throughout the galaxy is a must though, so people can run, declare, and then join the fight.

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Thats fine...then make it so ONLY overts can attack factioned NPC's....

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Thunderheart wrote:

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uofwi92 wrote:

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Thunderheart wrote:

This has been a really great thread and new discussions are still popping up.

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Paulie35 wrote:
Remove TEF. If a player does not want to PvP they should not have to.

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If we did that, it would dramatically change things. As it stands, people don't ever have to play PvP. They can remain Neutral and never have to be involved. Declaring Covert means a player primarily wants to play GCW PvE. There are certain actions that will push them to Overt status or put them at risk, but in each case, its a choice the player makes to get involved.

Should that risk not be part of the conflict? It was something that players strongly requested pre-launch.

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I agree with this poster. I hated nothing more than when I was a noob killing stuff in the Imperial Research Facility on Naboo, just trying to level up and get some decent loot when a master Imperial would show up and wax us because we were TEF'ed. I never made the choice to fight this person, but I had to because I was killing Imp NPCs.

This does, however, create a divide between overt and the rest of the game. If you're not overt, you shouldn't be able to heal someone who is (ala gtef). I think you should be able to trade, though... /shrug

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What about the idea of tying rank to TEF's so that playing in PvE GCW content doesnt gain you a flag unless you've earned a fair amount of Faction Rank?

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A possibility to be explored if under certain conditions:

removal of Gtef

Protection of player placed factional content so coverts cannot attack turrets and Faction bases and NPCs while they cannot get TEFs.

Setting various bases or even future content at certain partcipation limits.

I think most Overts would give up killing the wayward TEF'd youngling IF that meant we got rid of Covert Tef abuse in return and they could not freely effect the GCW while immune to the rammificantions.

Not agreeing mind you but its something we can explore in a focused discussion.

JEST3R

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Meplorium wrote:

How about this, remove all TEFs form the game, especially group ones. Either you declare at a recruiter and can now PvP or you stay out of it completely. TEFs are just a wishy washy inbetween that leads to more griffing than anything else. Placement of more recruits throughout the galaxy is a must though, so people can run, declare, and then join the fight.

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Ah yess! The Hardcore PvP solution rises again!

Figgures that it would show its ugly head in this thread.

- Have all of the developers who are designing the GCW to stop playing SWG and start playing Planetside. If you want MMOG war there is no other game and development team that even approaches that of Planetside. It is even an SOE game, you should be able to get a deal on subscriptions. If not I think you can get 14 days free, if you want I can get you a buddy key, I have 8 left. Having played Planetside for over a year and then look at what combat is like in SWG I want to cry. An SWG GCW could be so cool, but instead it is all about exploit early, exploit often, farm faction and gank your opponents for FRS (a new addition mind you that is almost certainly going to kill the GCW once and for all).

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Planetside is a completely different animal than SWG.

SWG is an MMORPG, not a MMOFPS.

You want twitch, wait for JTLS.

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I did not mean to imply that SWG needs FPS combat mechanics. It is the world mechanics, the MMOG components that PS implements that would be a welcome addition to SWG. In fact many aspects that are already in PS have been requested for the GCW.

Here many things that planetside could teach the developers of SWG that have nothing to do with FPS vs RPG:

- The importance of maps and other support systems. In PS at a glance I can see where my side stands, where they need help and where the current fights are occuring. There is no such system in SWG. If the fight is not right in front of you there is no way to tell there is even a war going on.

The most SWG devs have ever added was a monthly standings system that reported a single result. Does that even work anymore? Does anyone care? Check out planetsides web site. They have realtime reports on the web status of the conflict on each server. Why has SWG never implemented permanent bases that could be controlled by players? They made some noises about it. Heck player bases are more important now for faction farming. Some PA's set up faction bases for the opposite faction (via their mules) simply to farm faction. This is actually encouraged by the game rules. Unbelievable.

- There is no benefit other than immediate for anything done in SWG. There is no permanence In PS taking and holding territory (bases) results in tangible benefits for your side that last until you loose that territory. Where are the permanent faction bases that can be taken and held by one side? How come the rebels cannot make Naboo all rebel and charge an imperial tax? How do you tell how effective the imperial attempts to change that are?

- There is no effort in SWG to try to balance the factions in the event of one side having a large numerical superiority as is the case on some servers. How come the side with less declared players not get a boost in HAM or XP gain to offset the disadvantage of lower numbers? The PS devs are devoting considerably effort right now to address exactly this issue of population imbalance to maximize overall fun for everyone.

- How come in SWG high ranked players cannot broadcast on planet or galaxy wide channels to request players for re-inforcements or to attack an enemies flank. You can in PS. There is still no faction channel, apparently as the result of technical difficulties. Have the devs ever even considered a colonel channel? Maybe they would after seeing the potential that CR5 chat brings in PS. A couple good CR5's coordinating the outfits can have a huge impact in PS. Coomunication is the key in any war and SWG has very poor communication systems when compared with PS.

- The continual tweaking of balance in PS as a player is very gratifying. You really get a sense that the developers are focused on ensuring the best overall big picture balance to PS. Sure there are bumps from time to time, but overall PS is a balanced and fun game to play. Today in SWG you have FRS farming Jedi who through the 11 man exploit are well on their way to having their "I Win" button against all other classes (once CM is nerfed) and the CM+ that is soon to be nerfed leaving only the Jedi with the "I Win" button.

If you remove the twitch aspect of PS you still have a game that fundamentally is about global war. This focus has made planetside unique. There is no game like it. It would be silly for the SWG developers not to extract those aspects of PS that would fit within SWG.

Right now I am a planetside player who would love to get into the GCW in SWG but from what I read and seen it is a mess. Why would I want to engage in a combat system which unless I become template X I am doomed to fail in every encounter? Why can't a master carbineer compete? Why are all the ranged classes gimped in PvP and will be more so when targeted attacks are removed for Rifle?

Instead of a galactic level game of tactics and strategy what we currently have is faction farming and FRS ganking. Where you could have coordinated planet wide battles to take control of sections of the planet there is random ambushes using the GTEF at some dungeon or faction base.

At the end of the day all I know is that balanced simulated war feels like it is working in PS, in SWG though there are just too many problems right now. It would be foolish I think for SWG devs to ignore those aspects of PS that could be applicable to SWG.

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silversaber wrote:

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KrYpToFoX wrote:
For all of the people arguing against TEFs..you need to stop thinking about how YOU want to always go out and do your OWN thing, without any consequences, and start thinking in terms of the GAME...

I think it would be a TRAVESTY if I, as a rebel player, had to sit and watch an Imperial player killing rebel NPC's left and right, without being able to do a damn thing about it. This is PRECICLY one of the things that killed Anarchy On-Line for me...people from the opposing side could swoop into our towns, kill all the NPC guards, laugh at us, and then swoop out, and we were not able to do a damn thing about it...

I think removing the TEF's totally breaks immersion, and removes all sense of realism, and reality from the game. It turns factional NPC's from individuals that people have some sdegree of respect for, to inanimate playthings that can be shot at for a players amusement. This is not the STAR WARS that I want to live in...I want REPROCUSSIONS for my actions, because those REPRECUSSIONS give MEANING to them...otherwise, without the TEF and other PvP "punishments", gameplay becomes boring, formulaic, and, ultimately, pointless.

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I need to stop wanting what is fun for ME when you are trying to ram down my craw what YOU think is fun?

Yea riiiight.

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Im not trying to ram anything down anyones throat, Im simply saying that in a game that is STAR WARS there needs to be a WAY for you to proctect your OWN faction...I think its totally ludacris that I should have to sit and watch someone killing a Rebel trooper, and me not be able to do anything about it...if you were a Police Officer and saw your commards being gunned down, would you not want to step in and help? This is how I feel everytime I see a Rebel NPC being attacked...they are a commrad in Arms, and I should be able to assist them, where that person is an NPC, or PC...

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silversaber wrote:

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Limbonik wrote:

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silversaber wrote:

Three quartersof all the BEST PvEcontent in the game is in the GCW and in the Factions.

The PvP aspect of the game is the GCW (everything Rebel/Imperial). It says so right in the game manual. PvE is the neutral aspect of the game.

I can care LESS what the manual says. It hase never been up to date, and very LITTLE of the manual applies to the game now.

You can care less about what the manual says? It's there to inform you of how the game is played, and the rules that apply to each sub-system. What you're saying is "I don't care how the game is supposed to be played, I don't like it the way and it isn't fair to me." Well then, I don't like how you can't choose to be a Jediautomatically from the start of the game when I bought it, so I want it changed...

...see how stupid that sounds? No offense to you, honestly, but this is a system that was put in place for the PvPers to enjoy. It was not put into place for the PvEers to enjoy...that's what the rest of the game is all about. You don't see us complaining we can't take neutral missions or quests because we're factioned...so why are you complaining about a system that wasn't designed for PvE in any way? Again, I'm not trying to flame you, but I don't understand why you have a beef about not being able to PvE in a PvP system.

*The manual has always been relatively up to date, it is the strategy guide that is horribly askew with misinformation.

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silversaber wrote:

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We can be satisfied with the stale, chicken Mcnuggets, or we can stare through the window at real food being served, but with the catch that every time we touch the food, we can be bashed over the head at will by the other people eating.

I have said from before Beta, that the GCW is main content of Starwars. If we are forced to stay Neutral, then we are just playing a second rate bland SciFi game. This fact is more true now than it was then when I said it.

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My God, what is it you are so scared of?

Losing a few FP?

If you feel that strongly about the GCW, play it - not rally for some low-rent version of it.

Really, you don't even get decay from it - the consequence isn't as bad as some people make it out to be.

You have choice, and the consequences have already been reduced for you.

Again, what is it you are so scared of? If it's a strictly "principle" sort of thing, I'd suggest you review the practical before you commit yourself so heavily to the theoretical.

AO

Should that risk not be part of the conflict? It was something that players strongly requested pre-launch.

No, that risk should not be part of PvE play. That's not to say that PvE play should be without risk, but right now, the vast majority of this game is based on PvP play. Jedi gain TEFs and accrue visibility, which makes them PvP. The GCW cannot be participated in without gaining TEFs, which makes it PvP, regardless of your status.

I'm not going to say that PvP is bad, because it's not, and I'm not going to say that these things should not have PvP elements, or perhaps be entirely PvP. But be honest about it. This game is a PvP game, the way the TEF system is right now.

And that's why I stopped playing.

I will never be able to compete in PvP. No casual player will. We do not have the time to invest to get the best weapons, foods and armors, or to learn the best techniques, or to skill up into the best current templates. And so we lose. Every time. Guaranteed. There is no fun in that, not for us losers, and probably not much for the winners (unless they're griefers, and noone supports the griefers, right?).

So no, PvP risk should not now nor ever be a part of a PvE play style. If that means there will be no PvE playstyle, OK, no skin off my nose, my account is being used as a mule by some friends these days, and I just read the devtracker posts to keep up on events. Note that having contraband give you bounty hunter visibility would also mean you'd be PvP even without factional alignment, too, but I don't know if that idea has any support still. (If guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns...)

(I'm still reading the devtracker posts, btw, because the title held so much promise, and I still hope that JTL might just possibly have something us casual players might enjoy).

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Thunderheart wrote:

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fatgit wrote:

I agree that covert players SHOULD get a TEF for factional PvE.

However, simply trading with an overt will get you a TEF, this seems to be a bit over the top.

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It heavily depends on what you are trading. Certain things that are traded can have a serious impact on the game. To flag each item and do an item check every time a player traded something to another player would give the system an aneurysm. Instead, the prevention measures for the potential combat grief falls on factional status. The side effect certainly is the pain of the "trade TEF" and I am pushing for that to be included in the GCW revamp.

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