Development Cycle Archive
Thread: Roundtable Discussion: GCW and TEFs
Betatoxin
Mon Jul 12, 2004 2:59 pm
#274
Thunderheart wrote:This has been a really great thread and new discussions are still popping up.
Paulie35 wrote:
Remove TEF. If a player does not want to PvP they should not have to.If we did that, it would dramatically change things. As it stands, people don't ever have to play PvP. They can remain Neutral and never have to be involved. Declaring Covert means a player primarily wants to play GCW PvE. There are certain actions that will push them to Overt status or put them at risk, but in each case, its a choice the player makes to get involved.Should that risk not be part of the conflict? It was something that players strongly requested pre-launch.
The problem is not risk vs no risk. The problem is that PvP is so complex in SWG that it is open to all sorts of abuses. Players like Paulie35 are just asking for some sanity from the chaos of TEF.
I think what the poster is trying to get at is PvP should be straight forward.
If you are Overt you are in PvP, if you are not Overt you cannot participate, at all. No healing, buffing, dragging or targeting via GTEF.
As someone also mentioned if you group with an overt you should become overt, no hiding.
Now it is not that I like the fact that this takes out any concept of sneak attack. This comment recognizes that there is no GCW in SWG. By that I mean there is no War in SWG. PvP in SWG is glorified dueling where your ability to make use of the FOTM and various flaws in the TEF and combat system ensures victory. By removing the complex TEF system you make combat simpler and remove one more of the flaws in SWG combat.
Now if you really want to fix the GCW you need to drop the current combat system and replace it with a unified system, not the patchwork of systems you have today. By patchwork I mean offensive skills cost time (round of combat) but defensive passive skills do not?? That makes no sense. Passive skills like block should take time and have to be queued along with any offensive moves. It makes no sense they do not. Poison and disease do not even fit into the combat system and as a result are a huge source of problems as we all know.
Here are my suggestions, for what it is worth.
- Remove all passive defensive skills from the game. Replace them with active defenses in addition to improvements to active defensive skills from food. This will require players to choose an appropriate mix of all abilities, not just spam offensive pattern 3 and allow their defensive modifiers to magically intercept their opponents attacks. If I want to block the next series of lasers I should have to queue up my blocks.
- Place combat medics and doctors into the combat system and any other skill that can be used in combat. The only actions that should not be part of a round based system (and the queuing that accompanies it) is crafting.
- Rework combat in SWG with KISS as the primary guiding principle. That is keep it simple silly. SWG combat is far too complex and as a result it is impossible to balance and filled with exploits.
- Have all of the developers who are designing the GCW to stop playing SWG and start playing Planetside. If you want MMOG war there is no other game and development team that even approaches that of Planetside. It is even an SOE game, you should be able to get a deal on subscriptions. If not I think you can get 14 days free, if you want I can get you a buddy key, I have 8 left. Having played Planetside for over a year and then look at what combat is like in SWG I want to cry. An SWG GCW could be so cool, but instead it is all about exploit early, exploit often, farm faction and gank your opponents for FRS (a new addition mind you that is almost certainly going to kill the GCW once and for all).
Shimond
Mon Jul 12, 2004 3:03 pm
#275
Thunderheart wrote:
fatgit wrote:
I agree that covert players SHOULD get a TEF for factional PvE.
However, simply trading with an overt will get you a TEF, this seems to be a bit over the top.It heavily depends on what you are trading. Certain things that are traded can have a serious impact on the game. To flag each item and do an item check every time a player traded something to another player would give the system an aneurysm. Instead, the prevention measures for the potential combat grief falls on factional status. The side effect certainly is the pain of the "trade TEF" and I am pushing for that to be included in the GCW revamp.
Like what, exactly?
Stims? Weapons? Spices? Food?
None of that is 'game breaking' if traded to someone about to fight at the last minute or during a fight (course so many actions cancel trading you really can't trade while in a fight anyway so that's kinda pointless).
I'm not trying to be sarcastic here, I'm serious. What do the devs feel is so unbalancing to be traded between overt and covert people without a TEF?
-Shi
JoahSaett
Mon Jul 12, 2004 3:04 pm
#276
How about allowing a player to exempt themselves from allPVP?, an option that once chosen, would keep them from re-entering for 24 hours. They would not be able to attack, or be attacked by another player for 24 hours before they are allowed to choose to rejoin, or stay out.
silversaber
Mon Jul 12, 2004 3:04 pm
#277
Betatoxin wrote:
Thunderheart wrote:
This has been a really great thread and new discussions are still popping up.
Paulie35 wrote:
Remove TEF. If a player does not want to PvP they should not have to.
If we did that, it would dramatically change things. As it stands, people don't ever have to play PvP. They can remain Neutral and never have to be involved. Declaring Covert means a player primarily wants to play GCW PvE. There are certain actions that will push them to Overt status or put them at risk, but in each case, its a choice the player makes to get involved.
Should that risk not be part of the conflict? It was something that players strongly requested pre-launch.
The problem is not risk vs no risk. The problem is that PvP is so complex in SWG that it is open to all sorts of abuses. Players like Paulie35 are just asking for some sanity from the chaos of TEF.
I think what the poster is trying to get at is PvP should be straight forward.
If you are Overt you are in PvP, if you are not Overt you cannot participate, at all. No healing, buffing, dragging or targeting via GTEF.
As someone also mentioned if you group with an overt you should become overt, no hiding.
Now it is not that I like the fact that this takes out any concept of sneak attack. This comment recognizes that there is no GCW in SWG. By that I mean there is no War in SWG. PvP in SWG is glorified dueling where your ability to make use of the FOTM and various flaws in the TEF and combat system ensures victory. By removing the complex TEF system you make combat simpler and remove one more of the flaws in SWG combat.
Now if you really want to fix the GCW you need to drop the current combat system and replace it with a unified system, not the patchwork of systems you have today. By patchwork I mean offensive skills cost time (round of combat) but defensive passive skills do not?? That makes no sense. Passive skills like block should take time and have to be queued along with any offensive moves. It makes no sense they do not. Poison and disease do not even fit into the combat system and as a result are a huge source of problems as we all know.
Here are my suggestions, for what it is worth.
- Remove all passive defensive skills from the game. Replace them with active defenses in addition to improvements to active defensive skills from food. This will require players to choose an appropriate mix of all abilities, not just spam offensive pattern 3 and allow their defensive modifiers to magically intercept their opponents attacks. If I want to block the next series of lasers I should have to queue up my blocks.
- Place combat medics and doctors into the combat system and any other skill that can be used in combat. The only actions that should not be part of a round based system (and the queuing that accompanies it) is crafting.
- Rework combat in SWG with KISS as the primary guiding principle. That is keep it simple silly. SWG combat is far too complex and as a result it is impossible to balance and filled with exploits.
- Have all of the developers who are designing the GCW to stop playing SWG and start playing Planetside. If you want MMOG war there is no other game and development team that even approaches that of Planetside. It is even an SOE game, you should be able to get a deal on subscriptions. If not I think you can get 14 days free, if you want I can get you a buddy key, I have 8 left. Having played Planetside for over a year and then look at what combat is like in SWG I want to cry. An SWG GCW could be so cool, but instead it is all about exploit early, exploit often, farm faction and gank your opponents for FRS (a new addition mind you that is almost certainly going to kill the GCW once and for all).
Planetside is a completely different animal than SWG.
SWG is an MMORPG, not a MMOFPS.
You want twitch, wait for JTLS.
wookgunner
Mon Jul 12, 2004 3:05 pm
#278
Thunderheart wrote:
This has been a really great thread and new discussions are still popping up.
Paulie35 wrote:
Remove TEF. If a player does not want to PvP they should not have to.
If we did that, it would dramatically change things. As it stands, people don't everhave to play PvP. They can remain Neutral and never have to be involved. Declaring Covert means a player primarily wants to play GCW PvE. There are certain actions that will push them to Overt status or put them at risk, but in each case, its a choice the player makes to get involved.
Should that risk not be part of the conflict? It was something that players strongly requested pre-launch.
In an ideal where griefing does not exist the TEF would work great. The TEF needs to go... you should leave the decision with the player if he or she would like to PvP. The only thing the TEF gives now is a method to grief people whether that be by group TEF or master level profession ganking some NOOBs doing missions.
There needs to be a reward for going overt and if the TEF goes away there needs to be an easier way to go overt. Nobody likes travelling 4000 meters or jump to another planet just to go overt. Give politicians recruiters to place in cities.
joydiv66
Mon Jul 12, 2004 3:05 pm
#279
GTEF needs to go away.
As intended, it's a good system, but too many people use it as a tactic to gain an unfair advantage.
Lotussutol
Mon Jul 12, 2004 3:06 pm
#280
Thunderheart wrote:
This has been a really great thread and new discussions are still popping up.
Paulie35 wrote:
Remove TEF. If a player does not want to PvP they should not have to.
If we did that, it would dramatically change things. As it stands, people don't everhave to play PvP. They can remain Neutral and never have to be involved. Declaring Covert means a player primarily wants to play GCW PvE. There are certain actions that will push them to Overt status or put them at risk, but in each case, its a choice the player makes to get involved.
Should that risk not be part of the conflict? It was something that players strongly requested pre-launch.
TEF is not the problem...GTEF is the problem and what gets abused left and right!
ChewwyChewwy
Mon Jul 12, 2004 3:09 pm
#281
I don't agree with some of the earlier posters. If you want to be higher up in the imp or rebel army, I feel you have to be overt and risk the chance of getting whooped by rebels or imps. It's part of the risk involved with being in the army. It shouldn't matter if you are low-level or high-level.
I don't like the tefs for trading. I don't see how they could really sway any battle. Tefs for buffing/healing are good.
Just my 2cents.
Limbonik
Mon Jul 12, 2004 3:10 pm
#282
If a player does not want to PVP they should be neutral. With all the other systems that have been completely screwed up so far, removing TEF and letting carebears "pretend" they're a part of the war with no consequences is belittling to the system as it was intended to work.
Paulie35 wrote:
Remove TEF. If a player does not want to PvP they should not have to.
It's a Galactic Civil War, not a Galactic Civil Sandbox. "Rebel vs Imperial (vs Hutt, which still has never happened)" was designed for the PvP aspect of the game. If you don't want to PvP, don't join a faction that is PvP.
If you want to be Luke Skywalker or Darth Vader, but you don't want to be attacked (for shame!) it's really simple: Stay Covert. Stay out of Crackdown Cities. Stay away from Faction Scanners and Factional Bases. If you do enter a Crackdown city...don't have any contraband.
Whatis the point in making "contraband" if we just get rid of the system that causes TEF? I honestly think that would do more to harm what little roleplaying Smugglers have currently...and with their publish being pushed back until after the release of JTL...let's not take anything else from them.
There are systems in place to let people Roleplay, PvP and everything else in between. Just because you don't like a certain system in question, or want a system redesigned to allow you to completely circumvent PvP, doesn't mean it should happen.
That said....TEF isn't a problem. It's GTEF that's the problem.
Geko26
Mon Jul 12, 2004 3:10 pm
#283
I feel that if you are going to have TEF's for trading then you might as well have TEF's for sending /tells too...... calling on reinforcements is a big thing in the GCW.
DarthMinos
Mon Jul 12, 2004 3:11 pm
#284
Betatoxin wrote:
- Have all of the developers who are designing the GCW to stop playing SWG and start playing Planetside. If you want MMOG war there is no other game and development team that even approaches that of Planetside. It is even an SOE game, you should be able to get a deal on subscriptions. If not I think you can get 14 days free, if you want I can get you a buddy key, I have 8 left. Having played Planetside for over a year and then look at what combat is like in SWG I want to cry. An SWG GCW could be so cool, but instead it is all about exploit early, exploit often, farm faction and gank your opponents for FRS (a new addition mind you that is almost certainly going to kill the GCW once and for all).
I'm not interested in a First Person Shooter. Sure, there needs to be more skill involved in fighting right now, but I didn't buy this game for a first person shooter style of play. As a previous poster mentioned, JTL will have plenty of twitch. I'd prefer to leave it there.
cheserna
Mon Jul 12, 2004 3:12 pm
#285
The GTef is a really annoying....
If you die, you should need to go, find a recruiter, and go overt to join in the war again...
(a great idea for battlefeilds was a "time-out" for those that died.. they couldn't just jump back into the battle.... as it stands now.... who cares if you die... as long as you have ONE overt... your whole TEAM can participate in a battle.. and that just isn't fun.. and it allows "tef wars" to make a fight go on and on....)
If you die, you should need to go, find a recruiter, and go overt to join in the war again...
(a great idea for battlefeilds was a "time-out" for those that died.. they couldn't just jump back into the battle.... as it stands now.... who cares if you die... as long as you have ONE overt... your whole TEAM can participate in a battle.. and that just isn't fun.. and it allows "tef wars" to make a fight go on and on....)
silversaber
Mon Jul 12, 2004 3:14 pm
#286
Limbonik wrote:
If a player does not want to PVP they should be neutral. With all the other systems that have been completely screwed up so far, removing TEF and letting carebears "pretend" they're a part of the war with no consequences is belittling to the system as it was intended to work.
Paulie35 wrote:
Remove TEF. If a player does not want to PvP they should not have to.
It's a Galactic Civil War, not a Galactic Civil Sandbox. "Rebel vs Imperial (vs Hutt, which still has never happened)" was designed for the PvP aspect of the game. If you don't want to PvP, don't join a faction that is PvP.
If you want to be Luke Skywalker or Darth Vader, but you don't want to be attacked (for shame!) it's really simple: Stay Covert. Stay out of Crackdown Cities. Stay away from Faction Scanners and Factional Bases. If you do enter a Crackdown city...don't have any contraband.
Whatis the point in making "contraband" if we just get rid of the system that causes TEF? I honestly think that would do more to harm what little roleplaying Smugglers have currently...and with their publish being pushed back until after the release of JTL...let's not take anything else from them.
There are systems in place to let people Roleplay, PvP and everything else in between. Just because you don't like a certain system in question, or want a system redesigned to allow you to completely circumvent PvP, doesn't mean it should happen.
That said....TEF isn't a problem. It's GTEF that's the problem.
This wasnt a valid arguement THEN, and it is a much less valid arguement NOW.
Three quartersof all the BEST PvEcontent in the game is in the GCW and in the Factions.
If you think we are just going to leave it to the Hardcore PvPrs, well we got news for you.