Development Cycle Archive
Thread: IT 6-6: Imperial Crackdown: Some changes made based on In-Test Feedback
Zer0Mercy
Tue Feb 03, 2004 6:19 pm
#248
If you cant keep track of Facton Points then how come i can hit Ctrl+C and see a list of all of my NPC factions ?? And how do you track Imp/Rebel Faction as well ?? I hope its not client side....
Jinxx0r
Tue Feb 03, 2004 6:20 pm
#249
Soronume wrote:
Jinxx0r wrote:
relax... there is a point where it's considered a new change and can't be added to the current code (without a regression test that requires them to delay the current patch longer). I wasn't a priority for 6, 5, 4, etc.... he said it will be in 7. We've lived without for 7 months, 2 more isn't going to hurt.except that now i'm gonna get a TEF for holding a item that i do not know is sliced.
good point.
RedVenom400
Tue Feb 03, 2004 6:20 pm
#250
pwy you dont have to pvp , stay covert , a storm trooper scans you with ilegal stuff , you get fined , bid deal
PwyllTwiceborn
Tue Feb 03, 2004 6:22 pm
#251
No, if I stay Covert, I get scanned with contraband, I get a TEF, I don't pay fines. I then have to worry about 10 stormtroopers and a possible blue dot on my radar being Overt Imperial.
RedVenom400
Tue Feb 03, 2004 6:23 pm
#252
and one more thing , how does a player killing you takes away from the fun of the game ? what difference does it make if a npc kills you or if a player kills you , 45 freaking faction points ? give me a brake
people are cowards in real life and when they come here hiding from the real world and find the same people that they run away from they get mad 
PwyllTwiceborn
Tue Feb 03, 2004 6:26 pm
#253
Why should I die if 1,2,3......10000 people jump me because I got a TEF. Why should I pay for another set of buffs. Why should I be forced to run back to the mission I was doing before getting scanned? Why should I go Neutral when I want to be a Rebel? Why must I be forced into that situation to PvP when I am doing PvE that day. I can PvP the next day of I so chose.
JierHolln
Tue Feb 03, 2004 6:27 pm
#254
RedVenom400 wrote:
people are cowards in real life and when they come here hiding from the real world and find the same people that they run away from they get mad
Oy freakin' vey. Yeah, because it's the epitome of bravery to run around "killing" (and griefing) avatars, eh?
PwyllTwiceborn
Tue Feb 03, 2004 6:29 pm
#255
Bottom line is, wilderness scanning is dumb for people who PvP part of the time and PvE part of the time. I don't know how often the occurences happen, but if it's too frequent, it forces me to do things I don't want to at that particular time.
City scans are fine, because players know that to go there would mean to hide your contraband.
SonVegeta
Tue Feb 03, 2004 6:29 pm
#256
If a Jedi is turned OVERT by a scan how does he go back to covert since Jedi cannot converse with a recruiter? I think someone was asleep at the wheel on Jedi and this Imp Crack Down.
silversaber
Tue Feb 03, 2004 6:31 pm
#257
RedVenom400 wrote:
and one more thing , how does a player killing you takes away from the fun of the game ? what difference does it make if a npc kills you or if a player kills you , 45 freaking faction points ? give me a brake
people are cowards in real life and when they come here hiding from the real world and find the same people that they run away from they get mad
NPC's dont use bugs, hacks and cheats to get the max advantage they can over you.
NPC's dont stand over you, incapping you over and over and over, insulting you and telling you that when he is done with you, your mother is next.
I play these games to enjoy it, not have some PK destroy it, just because he can.
You wana call that cowardice? so be it.
Solo4114
Tue Feb 03, 2004 6:32 pm
#258
Very very bad choices all around. Let's review:
Imperials:
- Overts have no penalty inflicted upon them (although their penalty is that they have to remain overt, thus are constantly open to Rebel attack).
- Covert high ranking officers (for which we still don't have a definition) have no penalty inflicted upon them.
- Low ranking overts/coverts get a penalty.
Neutrals:
- Lose faction.
Rebels:
- Coverts are "outed" (again, no explanation of what happens -- are you outed only to imperial PCs? Do NPCs suddenly become hostile to you? What is the real effect?)
- Overts are attacked (no different from normally.)
This is HUGELY bad for smugglers in so many ways.
1.) Imperial Overts and high ranking Coverts smuggle better than Master Smugglers. Also, one can BUY their way to this position (though not with MY help, I can tell you that). Why can they smuggle better? Because there are NO consequences for carrying contraband for these players. Runesabre has said that Smugglers can do it better because they help their group. The description of the smuggler benefit did NOT indicate this in the least. If the mere presence ofa smuggler confers a benefit on their group, say so. Even so, that's not an advantage. Why? Because it just doesn't matter for Imperials. Even a low ranking player as part of a group with a high ranking player can just trade their items to the high ranker to carry through the scan. Problem solved. No penalties whatsoever. Smugglers run at LEAST a 5% risk of being caught. How did you plan on having smugglers smuggle anyway? Players will have to trade their goods to them, so how can you then sit there and say Imperials are NOT better than even Master smugglers?? If you have more info, PLEASE be forthcoming with it.
2.) This changes the ability of smugglers not one whit. Not only do Imperials have no incentive to seek out the services of a smuggler, but Rebels also have little to no incentive. Overt rebels? They get attacked on sight by Imperials anyway. How is this any different? Scans are irrelevant to them because they're targets for the Empire ALL the time. Neutrals? They get a loss of faction. We have no indication of what effect this has. Does this mean the Empire will attack you if your faction gets too low? How then does this NOT drag neutrals into the GCW (not that I mind that, actually -- breaking the law should have consequences). On the other hand, for all we know, this could simply mean that you are told "I don't like you very much" by every Imperial you see. Oooooh. I'm crushed. Neutrals have, as far as we know, little incentive to seek a smuggler. Even if they did, they'd be better off giving the items to an overt Imperial or high ranking covert, which, from the description, could be anything from a Corporal on up.
3.) For the people that suffer penalties, you simply encourage them to NOT use spice or sliced weapons. How many rebels do you know that currently pack a rebel faction blaster? Not many. Why? Because you devs made certain that anything available from a faction recruiter would be inferior to what's out on the market. So, no one's gonna be carrying a rebel E-11 around with 'em because, well, they suck to begin with. This leaves us with spice and sliced goods. Well, chef changes are a-comin' and they are actually better than Spice, since there's no downer. Assuming chefs can muster up the resources, why would anyone buy spice now? The downer, the risk of being caught with contraband, etc. There's no percentage in it. Sliced weapons? I'll just buy a crate of powerups where I KNOW what percent they improve my weapon, rather than taking a chance with slicing and the randomness of THAT system. No need to go to my local slicer now. What's left for the smuggler to do? Smuggle NOTHING. Everything that needs smuggling isn't worth having. Bad planning on your part, devs. If you're going to take with one hand, you have to give with the other. You want to make spice and sliced goods illegal? Great! I'm all for it. But you have to make them worthwhile to own, too, and not inherently replaceable by other professions.
4.) For the people that suffer no penalties, maybe they'll still buy from smugglers, but they sure won't be asking them to do any smuggling. If I'm an overt rebel, why would I want to pay someone to carry my gear? I'd rather have it on me so that I can fight the instant the Imperials aggro on me. And again, covert high ranking imperials and overt imperials suffer ZERO penalty. Not coolAT ALL.
Are you pissed at the smuggler community? Did we do something to anger you BESIDES sitting around patiently for MONTHS on end waiting for some promised light at the end of the tunnel, which in this case turns out to be an oncoming locomotive? What gives guys? Why the nerf? And this IS a nerf for us, by the way. It makes us even less useful than we are now. Not that we're very useful to begin with.
This idea, like the implementation of the smuggler profession itself, is half-baked. It needs more time to be developed, but I doubt you'll wait, and I doubt you'll bother to fix things. A smuggler system requires a FAR more robust implementation of contraband and tariffs. This system, which focuses almost exclusively on smuggler-provided items, just screws us from both directions. Other players can smuggle better than us, and our services are less useful now than ever. Gee, thanks.
What I'm realizing more and more is that this game has never been fully fleshed out in terms of design. You guys don't really get how to balance all the ideas you have. They're not all bad ideas, you know, you just can't seem to figure out how to get them together to work right.
Examples:
- No player will EVER be forced to PvP. Unless, of course, they get a TEF from failing a scan and get dragged into it as a covert.
- No player will EVER be forced to participate in the GCW. Unless, of course, they fail a scan enough times and get such low faction ratings with the Empire that they're attacked on sight. By the way, no corresponding boost in Rebel faction.
- Smugglers should be in the game. But, Smugglers pre-crackdown don't smuggle. We have a bunch of skills that make us a generic "criminal" (remember -- nothing's illegal) mish-mash. Our skills are also replaceable with weapon powerups and chef/doctor/entertainer buffs.
- Smugglers post-crackdown can smuggle. Oh, but other players can do it better. And most players won't really care about it. And the ones who do won't buy your goods anymore because, well, why should they? They can already get similar items from artisans, doctors, chefs, etc.
- Droid engineers should be in the game. But don't let 'em make things that are really useful like true automatons because that would be unbalancing somehow.
I think the key problem that you guys are suffering from is that you have tunnel vision. You DO have a vision for what you'd LIKE certain aspects of the game to be, but you can't seem to figure out how to do it in a way that allows OTHER aspects of the game to coexist peacefully. You focus only on the immediate issue of "We need Droid Engineers/Smugglers/A Galactic Civil War in the game" and then forget that you need to do other things to the game world to make this work. Droid engineers need to make USEFUL droids (and by the way, combat droids ain't it -- the CH class is a whole other problematic issue). Smugglers need to have a law enforcement/tariffsystem to evade. But instituting such a system might force players into the GCW or force them to PvP, which this game is designed not to have happen.
You're being pulled in too many different directions, and it's time you took a stand and said "We gotta break some eggs to make an omlette." I think that the idea behind the crackdown was to do this, but you've **edit**-footed your way through it and now we've got the same half-baked approach we got with the initial designs.
Just so you don't think that ALL I have to offer is criticism, here's a few constructive suggestions to revise the penalties and for the future of smuggler development:
1.) Overt Imperials already have it rough enough because they're attackable by rebels. They get a choice of a15 point faction deduction or a500credit fine PER illegal item they carry. The scan system must be set up to check the quantity of whatever it's scanning for and multiplies the penalty accordingly.
2.) Covert high ranking imperials take a 20 FP deduction or a 1000 credit fine PER illegal item. Why? Because they're not out fighting for the emperor. They're hiding behind their covert status. The Emperor rewards service in battle. Consider yourself lucky that your penalties are not higher.
3.) Low ranking covert imperials take a 50 FP deduction or a 2000 credit fine per illegal item. Work harder, soldier, and your efforts will be rewarded.
4.) Neutrals get -75 faction with the Empire for each item of contraband they carry and must pay a 200 credit fine per item. This negative faction DECAYS over time, to a minimum of -300 faction. Thus, if you have -75 only, you'll always have -75. If you have -500, it will eventually decay down to -300, but go no lower. The Empire has its eye on you, but considers you a minor threat, citizen. Behave yourself, and you'll be left alone. Once you hit -3000 points, your fines go up to 1000 per item. Once you hit -5000, you're considered a criminal and are attacked on sight.
5.) Covert rebels get two rolls. One to determine if the scan team finds contraband, and another to determine if this triggers an ID check (which reveals them as rebels). If they are NOT discovered to be rebels, they receive the same penalty as a neutral. Note: depending on your existing negative faction with the Empire, this may have the same effect as being discovered as a rebel. If you are discovered as a rebel, you are attacked on sight, Rebel scum. Also note: if they are not discovered, covert rebels have the option to either pay the fine and take the negative faction point, or attempt to shoot their way out of the scan point and be TEFed for 15 minutes real world time.
6.) Overt rebels are attacked on sight. Folks, if you're considered a terrorist agitator or even a terrorist sympathizer, the brutal dictatorship you're fighting against is GOING to shoot at you on sight.
7.) Smugglers get the same bonuses to smuggling as initially described. They are treated according to their faction alleigances, but are given extra options.
- An Imperial smuggler is given a "discount" when caught, which is tied to their Underworld standing. Novices start at 5% reduced cost, each level of Underworld gives you a corresponding 7% cumulative increase, and Master gives you a 17% increase, adding up to a maximum of 50% off of whatever fines you have to pay as an Imperial.
- A neutral smuggler is given the additional option to buy his way out of trouble (IE: pay only credits, but take no faction loss -- but at 1.5x the cost of what you'd normally have to pay, so a 1000 fine would cost you 1500, but you'd take no faction loss)
-A rebel smuggler, if not detected, is treated like a neutral smuggler, but also has the option to blast his way out of the situation instead of paying the fine (which is unavailable to the neutral smuggler as an option).
- Each option would be available as an NPC discussion box dialogue option (IE: the box you see when you go to your recruiter and say "I'd like to go overt").
The logic behind this system works as follows. Imperial troopers are treated differently based on their demonstrated loyalty to the Empire and their committment to fighting the Rebellion on a daily basis. Overts are given preference, high ranking coverts are next in line, and finally low ranking coverts. However, the Emperor appreciates all imperial service, and so the penalties are not as strict. However, even as a high ranking officer, one must use some "pull" to avoid stiff fines, as evidenced by the FP deduction. Think about it. Every time you ask for a favor from your fellow officers, they become less willing to help you, until you show your loyalty again (IE: each time, you lose FP, or influence, until you gain more FP or regain your status in the Empire's eyes). Or you can pay the fine and the Empire will shrug its shoulders and look the other way at your "indiscretion."
Neutrals are just average citizens. They OWE their loyalty to the Empire, and if they step out of line, it's as if their name is now "on a list" of people to watch out for and possibly "neutralize." Criminals are not treated any differently from Rebels (well, maybe a LITTLE differently, you'll be shot, instead of tortured for information and THEN shot), as reflected by the -5000 faction result. But, by being a law-abiding citizen, the Empire is willing to forgive past transgressions UP TO A POINT.
Covert rebels are attempting to avoid the Empire's gaze. They still have a chance to do so, but by virtue of being rebels, they've probably already killed a few Imperials too many. Still, they have a chance (as evidenced by the dice roll) that they won't be recognized. Obi-Wan wasn't instantly recognized by the Stormtroopers at Mos Eisley, after all.
Smugglers, on the other hand, are adept at avoiding trouble, and when they find it, minimizing the damage. Imperial smugglers have connections and can cut their losses further. Neutral smugglers can talk their way out of a situation and grease palms to make the authorities look the other way. Rebel smugglers, if they're covert (which they should be anyway) can hope they don't get detected, and be treated like neutral smugglers. Then again, being rebels, they'll have much less of a problem with killing the Imperial scan team and running for it.
That's how I'd implement the system, anyway. Penalties all around, though only varying somewhat from the current system. The scanning system itself would have to be reworked, and text menus would have to be created to allow for all of the consequences. The toughest thing that I can think of is the decaying negative faction for neutrals only, but it seems only fair and I think it's worth the effort. Neutrals and rebels can complain about being forced to PvP or participate in the GCW under this system, but my response is twofold:
1.) If you don't want to be forced into this, obey the law. If you break the law, you accept the possible consequences. The Empire HAS laws and by slicing or carrying around spice, you're breaking them. You are, in effect, NOT a neutral and are just a common criminal deserving of no mercy by the Empire. That doesn't mean you're part of the GCW, though
2.) If you join the Rebellion, it should be a serious committment, not a lighthearted adventure. This is an underground revolutionary movement. Your opponent is a ruthless dictatorship who commands a HUGE military machine and has NO qualms about executing you on the spot. If you join the Rebellion, you have, in effect, ALREADY consented to being part of the GCW. You took a side. You opted to get into the thick of things. You can't do that and expect to be sheltered forever. Sooner or later, if you're a rebel, you'll pay the consequences or have to fight your way out of a situation (or run like hell). And rightly so. YOU'RE A REBEL, DAMMIT!! Show some committment to the cause! Do you fight for freedom or do you cower behind your covert status?? Did you think this was a GAME, son?? Joining the rebellion should be a deadly serious undertaking.
Some other benefits of this system are that it helps create more of an atmosphere. Imperials are encouraged to go overt and better serve the Empire. Rebels are encouraged to go COVERT and avoid the Empire's gaze, but still can be thrown into battle unexpectedly if they're spotted as rebels. Neutrals are encouraged to obey the law of the Empire, and if they do, they'll be left alone and have nothing to fear. All this goes to create a more accurate atmosphere than the "wild west" anarchistic system we've got currently. Like I said, the crackdown is a good idea in theory, but the implementation that the devs have proposed attempts to have its cake and eat it too. When the Empire cracks down, EVERYONE should feel it, Imperials included. Smugglers should be able to smuggle better than anyone else, neutrals should want to obey the law, and Rebels should hide and pray they don't get caught. As it stands, the devs have done very little of this and have hurt smugglers the most. I hope they can realize this and remedy it before the patch goes live.
ColtFA
Tue Feb 03, 2004 6:33 pm
#259
Thunderheart wrote:
Contraband is: Rebel Faction Equipment, Spice, Sliced weapons and armor.
Great, so simply carrying a wearable set of composite = NINE more chances to get detected...
That's nice, another reason for players to hate armor.
silversaber
Tue Feb 03, 2004 6:39 pm
#260
2.) If you join the Rebellion, it should be a serious committment, not a lighthearted adventure. This is an underground revolutionary movement. Your opponent is a ruthless dictatorship who commands a HUGE military machine and has NO qualms about executing you on the spot. If you join the Rebellion, you have, in effect, ALREADY consented to being part of the GCW. You took a side. You opted to get into the thick of things. You can't do that and expect to be sheltered forever. Sooner or later, if you're a rebel, you'll pay the consequences or have to fight your way out of a situation (or run like hell). And rightly so. YOU'RE A REBEL, DAMMIT!! Show some committment to the cause! Do you fight for freedom or do you cower behind your covert status?? Did you think this was a GAME, son?? Joining the rebellion should be a deadly serious undertaking.
Yes, it IS a game.
It is paid entertainment, in which people will stop paying when it no longer becomes fun.
People keep loosing sight of this little fact. Until you see the mass cancelling of accounts.