Development Cycle Archive
Thread: IC 1-13: Combat Roles; Scout
What defines theScout role in combat?
The Scout is not a combat class, but a support class. They should prove a benefit against creature enemies, but not much use against people.
What basic combat elements should they possess?
Traps and Camps. Traps restrain or restrict enemies, and camps allow allies greater flexibility to heal and deploy pets.
What offensive abilities?
Traps that restrict enemy movement or harm them. Restricting traps should be especially powerful against melee combatants, pinning them down so that ranged attackers can pick them off without fear of retaliation.
What defensive abilities?
Camps that allow increased healing and other "combat preparation" advantages. Also, traps may be considered defensive.
What unique abilities?
Traps should be the specialty of the Scout. In particular, Scout traps should prove very effective against creature enemies, and less so against people. Camps should allow improved healing (for those who can escape the fight and reach the camp), and the ability to (re)deploy creatures between or even during a fight. (If camps let people deploy pets during a fight, then the camp should be a targetable structure that can be destroyed and it should take longer to set up a new one, but it would become a stragegic element of combat rather than a between-fights boon.)
Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?
Restraining creatures. If the scout can neutralize enemy creatures, then the group's CH is free to harass the enemy.
How could/should they interact with other professions?
Scouts are not fighters. Against anyone except a CH or non-combatant, they should probably lose. Against a CH they should have a decent chance of success. Medics and entertainersshould appreciate Scouts for their camps' healing benefits.
What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?
A Scout should probably stay out of the fight and defend the camp. Camps should not disappear in a fight but should be targetable and should take longer to set up (so that destruction of the camp is a worthwhile goal). With a combat-ready camp, the group should have better healing opportunities as well as the chance to change their pet complement mid-battle to meet the needs of the fight. If camps disappear during a fight as they do now, then the scout really doesn't have much role against opponents who are not creatures.
What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?
Support and tactical advantage. Camps should remain in a fight and become an important tactical element that allows a side to respond to the enemy's troops by changing their own pet mix.
Added Question: What is their weakness or shortcoming in combat?
Scouts have no inherent combat abilities except traps. They are quite vulnerable to people.
Thunderheart wrote:
Given the basic considerations listed above, please answer the following questions:
What defines theScout role in combat?
What basic combat elements should they possess?
What offensive abilities?
What defensive abilities?
What unique abilities?
Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?
How could/should they interact with other professions?
What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?
What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?
If these question were numbered 1-9 in order, this is how I answer:
1) The ability to map terrain/evironment, first sight or early warning, reconisance (spelling?) for faction.
2) Scout should be able to mask scent as they do, perhaps use camoflauge effectively, cover ground more quickly than other players, and be well rounded in low-level combat like beginning pistol, beginner brawler, beginning healing in camps.
3) Offensive abilities should allow for a single stealth attack, or 1st quick strike until the scout reveals himself to the enemy or discovered. He should have a keener sense of terrain layout and use his an evironment asa weapon in the basic sense. He should also have quicker recovery from sprinting.
4) Defensive should include a quicker rate of recovery from sprinting. Taking Cover bonus, or some modifiers that allow him an initial dodge from weapon if discovered. Perhaps use camoflauge, or the ability to camoflauge a small amount of grouped players, making it harder for the enemy to hit/detect.
5) Unique abilities: Faster recovery in wild as outlined above, Stealth modifier. Sneak attack.
6 & 7) In group combat should be able to help medical personal with medical foraging. Help squad leaders or groups mask scent against critters. Add bonus to camps and recovery within. Faster ground speed.
8) Unsure directly, but answers 1-7 above can lend some insight,
9) Used for actual combat scouting....detect enemies and mobs easier. Enhanced 'radar' sense? Medical foraging.
What defines theScout role in combat?
Prepare for battle, can take advantage of things, able to make a group work better with hit-run tactics the such. They should be largely dependent on a group, and most of their specials to groups would only work with an SL in command.
Rangers and Scouts must be clearly defined and different. I believe that Scouts are hardely the Stealth Masters tha Rangers should be, and cannot survive on their own very well, but also make a group so much better. Remember Scouts are still a starting profession.
What basic combat elements should they possess?
Again they prepare a group for the combat they may face. This could be from added defenses and terrain speeds, to providing limited yet useful intel on the enemy.
What offensive abilities?
They should get some opportunist type attacks, like I propose for rangers. These could be targeting certain HAMs, to special attacks, to anything that takes advantage of the enemy.
What defensive abilities?
Not alot, they require a group for most PvPing. They should be able to hold their own in the wilderness for short amounts of times, yet will always have to come back for heals, and to resupply.
What unique abilities?
Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?
I have pretty much said this on everything else. In PvP they need a group, so then ofcourse they need to add some things to the group. Most of their bonuses would only work with an SL as a leader tho.
How could/should they interact with other professions?
Scout's harvesting should remain the same, but (just because rangers and scouts are close) Rangers need to be the bulk provider of alot of organic resources, so they should be able to get alot more then scouts. Scouts again, would work best in groups where their added abilities would help them harvest more, and with a Ranger in the group that would jump by alot, for him and them.
What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?
Ofcourse they would need them, and SLs would be wanted for group positions so that scouts can help the group better too.
What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?
I think it should be much needed for anyone that wants to conduct any kind fo hit-run attacks, in the groups and each as well. Limited preping for combat.
To compare you might want to read my post in Ranger Combat, scouts rangers must be different, but can provide still much usefullness, especially when grouped together.
What defines theScout role in combat?
Finding the enemy. Be that NPC, PC, or creature. Take away the radar for everyone but those who posses scout skills. Then as the gain higher scouting skills their radar range increases.
What basic combat elements should they possess?
Good defensice abilities, possibly some camoflauge or hinding abilities.
What offensive abilities?
Not much, they won't make a good scout if they are shooting at what they are watching.
What defensive abilities?
Good defensice abilities for not being an elite profession but not great defenses.
What unique abilities?
As stated above, the ability to see the enemy before others who do not posses the scouting skill. One way would be to give only scouts (and rangers too) the radar and take it away from everyone else who doesn't possess some scouting ability. Possibly move the ability to make camps higher up in the tree but you would have accomidations for pulling out vehicles and mounts to people without having to use a camp.
Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?
acuracy modifiers for ranged combat professions
How could/should they interact with other professions?
not sure...
What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?
as stated above they provide camps (but camps are moved up in the tree), and acuracy modifiers for ranged attacks.
What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?
Okay, I haven't read through the thread yet, largely because I want to answer this on my own without being influenced by the answers given by others.
Given the basic considerations listed above, please answer the following questions:
What defines theScout role in combat? A scout should be just that: a scout. Someone who operates in advance of an offensive element to collect intelligence. Generally a scout that engages heavily in head-to-head combat should quickly become a dead scout. Scouts' combat abilities should support hit & run tactics and sniping.
What basic combat elements should they possess? As a grunt, I'd see the scout as a sort of jack-of-all-trades, master of none. He should be able to use just about any weapon passably, but accuracy should be dependent on getting up close (with pistols) or taking time to aim (like maybe a special /carefulAim or something that takes longer but provides better bonuses).
What offensive abilities? Scouts should have limited combat abilities. They should be like special forces, not used so much to win an engagement as to collect intel and maybe do a little softening up before the main force arrives. A scout's offensive abilities should revolve around dealing lots of widespread damage, and then getting the hell out. Not so much to kill, but to soften. Perhaps some short range (scouts should have to get very close -- not be artillery), wide-area, heavily damaging attack with a recharge rate long enough to discourage them from sticking around for a second shot. Typical use of a scout should be to send him in to surveil, then wait there until the main assault force is near, then fire off his softening blow right before the main force arrives. Whatever the attack should heal fairly quickly as well, to place the emphasis on timing and further reduce its usefulness as a tool for the solo.
On the other hand, scouts should reign supreme against nature. I think with traps and /maskscent and /camouflage, they fairly well do that already. Maybe adding a damage bonus to a scout's attack versus animals for their better understanding of the creatures' anatomies would be swell.
What defensive abilities? Not a very high-level scout right now so I'm not sure whether this might already exist, but if a scout (or ranger, which I guess is what I'm really talking about here) could apply /maskscent and /camo to a whole group to enable them to get by hostile critters on the way to assault a base, for example, that'd be a cool function for the scout. Concealment should be their primary defensive function, and it should extend to concealment against PC's and NPC's as well.
What unique abilities? Scouts already have a good collection of unique abilities. In a combat role, as previously stated, the scout should focus on concealment and observation, then a swift attack-and-flee in support of other more conventional combatants. Another thing I'd like to have available is something the binoculars used in the various movies for scouts. I realize there may be an issue with rendering, but it would be great if scouts could use some kind of spyglass or binocs to observe something very far away -- maybe even up to a kilometer -- that would allow him/her to observe an area, count troops, watch and time patrols, that sort of thing.
Another aspect of the scout that I think should exist but doesn't is tracking. A scout should have an easier time finding a specific type of creature other than just wandering around and looking for them. In fact, scouts should have a fauna scanner that can help lead them to a specific type of creature (giant carrion spat, bantha, diseased swarming crazed rancor, whatever). Further, if a vehicle or a character travelled through an area, a scout should be able to determine that. Sort of like Aragorn tracking the Urukai in LOTR. A result could look like: "A wookiee of above average size moved through this place from south to north 10-15 minutes ago."
Should add what advantage or asset in group combat? Intelligence, primarily, and as mentioned above, a softening initial blow. Oh, and counter-intelligence as well. Almost forgot that. Scouts should be able to spot other concealed scouts more easily and possibly eliminate them -- or at least counter their abilities.
What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War? I think I've already stated that pretty clearly.
There was a comment made in the opening post related to fantasy-genre games. I sort of see scouts as the Rangers of sci fi. Adept at surviving alone in the wilderness. Tracking, staying hidden, walking softly, observing. A fighter class that's not really a fighter class, and master of the Great Outdoors.
Some of the above comments are non-combat comments, and all of them came out pretty stream-of-consciousness without any real effort at organization. Sorry about that. :S
I'd like to see Scouts getting "sneak" and "camoflage" abilities for moving - an extension of the Mask Scent ability.
Additionally, being able to Mask the Scent of all members of a party would be most welcome. In other words, anybody being "lead into the wilderness" by the Scout would be under his/her "protection" from the environment.
Traps should work on humanoids - maybe not all of them, but real world traps like Bolas can be used to bring down anything with legs. A similar system would be nice for Scouts.
And as Scouts are all about exploring and "scouting out" the scene, how about Night vision? Possibly a certification-required item that Scouts gained the ability to use more effectively than non-certified characters.
- Tyl
Traps need revamping to improve their proformance.
With the new pet calling coming in camps need to give great bonus and options to them.
What defines theScout role in combat?
Recon, scouting ahead of the main force to find the enemy and report back.
What basic combat elements should they possess?
Concelment and ability to make a stealthy get-away.
What offensive abilities?
None, you are not a fighting force.
What defensive abilities?
Staying not seen is your best defense.
What unique abilities?
Conceal from players at a range of 79m. The ablity to "paint" targets, if you fail at painting a target they will be alerted and you will be attackable. Slice into a base (from a range of 20m)to deactivate sensors, or mine fields or turrets for2 1/2minutes or less, after this the base cannot be hacked for1 hour.
Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?
"Painted" targets can be seen from a greater distance on radar
How could/should they interact with other professions?
Squadleaders, smugglers
What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?
Smugglers for tools, rangers for concealing kits
What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?
The ability to tell if a GCW base is occupid by a enemy force. A scouts Tents should be able to repair vehicals up to 50%, so a bike with 100/1000 hp can get repair up to 500/1000, but a bike with 501/1000 hp will not be repaired.
The scout should be able to hide from humanoids, too.
Terrain should play a major role in what a scout can and can't do.
There should be more of what you call "traps". When I first began playing I was confused that traps are to be thrown! I got used to it, but I still think there should be _real_ traps - things you put up and if something steps into it, it becomes entangled, hurt, etc. depending on the type of trap. This could make a scout helpful to prepare the combat before all the real fighters are coming in.
Blix wrote:
Just a few comments:
The scout should be able to hide from humanoids, too.
Terrain should play a major role in what a scout can and can't do.
There should be more of what you call "traps". When I first began playing I was confused that traps are to be thrown! I got used to it, but I still think there should be _real_ traps - things you put up and if something steps into it, it becomes entangled, hurt, etc. depending on the type of trap. This could make a scout helpful to prepare the combat before all the real fighters are coming in.
I disagree with the idea that Scouts should be able to hide from humanoids. Rangers should be able to hide from humanoids. Rangers use camo kits to visually hide from enemies, which should work just as well on humanoids as on creatures. Scouts merely mask their scent. A creature can be fooled by this, but a humanoid would just say "Man, that scout over there smells really bad". This also gives Rangers a unique and useful ability.
I agree withterrain playing a major role in scout abilities.
The 'ground traps' that you set on the ground and use are currently planned as a Ranger only system that will help to differentiate Rangers from Scouts and give Rangers a unique feel. If scouts were given traps like this, Rangers would have to get something more unique imo.
Now as for the purpose of this thread, I feel that scouts are overall pretty balanced and just about perfect the way they are, and I think they just need some changes to make up for the loss of importance in terrain negotiation and camps. The modular camp system in the Ranger Outdoorsman proposal includes some ideas for the Scout profession as well, and would address some of the camp issues. The terrain negotiation issue should be looked at more closely, perhaps the exploration line needs some new abilities associated with this mod to make it better (ie swimming faster, applying the terrain negotiation mod to mounts when you are riding them, etc)
These are just my opinions, and I admit they may be somewhat biased due to my Master Ranger status, and my desireto see many of the cooler enhancements suggested for scouts to rangers instead. Thanks for reading, and happy hunting.
What defines theScout role in combat?
I am back for the 14 day 'come back, we fixed it' trial. I created a newbie scout and have been playing him for a couple of days. Here are my opinions of what would help keep me in the game:
What basic combat elements should they possess?
- Scouts should be primarily ranged weapon experts. They should be good at killing things at a distance BEFORE the target closes. Combat at zero range should be the last thing a scout wants, and should incur substantial penalties or vulnerabilities.
- Scouts skills should give them good Offensive & Defensive skills against animals.
- Scouts should get gooddefensive onlyskills against sentients when in wilderness environments, and none in city or urban environments.
What offensive abilities?
- Scouts need effective imobilization traps. Slowing down a creature really doesn't help. They need to be stuck so you can shoot at them from a safe distance. Higher level scouts should get the ability to use these on sentients, with some restrictions.
- Scouts need critical shot or sniper shot abilities against creatures. The shot should incapacitate the creature and allow a Coup de Gras hit to kill (the only time a scout wants to close with the target). Make it a huge mind/action pool expense to compensate for the ability to take down a creature in one or two shots. NEVER allow this capability against sentients.
- Scouts need lure-type traps which distract creatures from combat for a limited time or until hit. Higher level lures should affect multiple creatures, thus allowing the scout to pull creatures into combat one at a time. Master Level lures should prevent creatures from engaging in combat unless hit 2-3 times.
- Advanced Scouts should have the ability to shoot creatures while mounted or on a vehicle. (Side note: When are you going to put headlights on vehicles? Are they outlawed by the Emperor?)
What defensive abilities?
- Immobilization and Lure traps listed above.
- Ability to fire from behind cover: rocks, trees, etc. Gives a substantialdefensive bonus against ranged attacks, but allows a normally 'blocked' sentient target the ability to fire at you.
- Ability to evade/dodge creature hits while moving. This should be a learned ability with a medium-to-low mind/action cost.
- Ability to move near sentients without detection, similar to mask scent against creatures. Call it Camoflage orStealth. Should only operate in non-city/rural areas.
- Ability to move without leaving a trail (see unique abilities).
What unique abilities?
- Ability to track the trails of moving creatures, sentients and vehicles. Also able to hide your own trail. Should be a Cost-Over-Time mental ability. Terrain effects ability to track/hide trails: hills or water makes trailingharder, but makeshiding trails easier. This ability can be enhanced by using tracking devices: scent trackers, thermal trackers, bio-scanners, binoculars, tracer tags (tracer darts?), magnetic scanners (for vehicles), etc.
- Advanced or Master Scouts should be able to set up pens to trap multiple creatures simultaneously. Would allow harvesting passive creatures without fighting. Aggressive/angered creatures could not be directly harvested. Aggressive/angered creatures cannot attack outside of the pen, but could break the pen by attacking it, and then attack players.
- Ability to use exotic, hard to detect weapons. Master Scouts probably usehard to see poison dart guns or silenced slug-guns, not easy to see/hear blasters. Scouts DON'T want to be seen, especially when fighting.
- Enhanced ability to find specific types of creatures. (May be related to trailing ability listed above.) Scouts shouldn't have to wander around randomly to find the specific creatures they want to hunt.
- Ability to find wilderness based special locations, NPCs, and Theme Parks.
- Ability to temporarily interfer with or break a creature handler's control of his pets. This should be an Advanced or Master Scout leve ability.
Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?
- Groups should get the terrain movement benefits of the Scout's Exploration ability. Group members temporarily get the movementenhancement, at 1 level below the Scout's current Explore level. Example:A grouphas two Scouts with Explore ability. One has Explore IV and the other Explore II. The Explore IV Scout moves at maximum speed over all terrain. The second scout and the rest of the group move at the Explore III rate, since the Explore IV Scout is 'trail-blazing' the way for them.
- Scouts should have the ability to mask scent for entire groups.
- Multiple scouts should be able to simultaneously deploy camps. These 'overlapping' camps increase recovery rates, camp capacity, etc. Each Scout who deploys a camp gets a share of the Wilderness Experience accrued by the camp.
How could/should they interact with other professions?
- Artisans - Scouts should have the tightest relationships with artisans. They guide Artisans to better resource sites (grouped scout automatically increases survey results/range), as well as acting as protectors. Scouts can also deploy long term creature repellant lures on harvesters, so that Artisans are less likely to be attacked while operating/maintaining their harvesters. Scouts also provide improved hides/bones/meat to artisans.
- Entertainers - Scouts buy FEIs (Field Entertainment Items - vids, toys, etc)from Entertainers. FEIs can be used for limited mind-pool healing while in camps.
- Marksman/Brawler- Provide tracking, defensive, offensivesupport services.Provide camps.
- Medic - Provide medics with rare organic compounds needed for advanced medicines. Buy basic stim-pacs and other first aid supplies.
What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?
- Scouts want to spy on or shoot other combatants, and then run away.
- Scouts prefer to minimize or control their interaction with combatants, since pound-for-pound they are weaker in combat.
- Scouts want to crush their enemies and hear the lamentations of their women.... from a long way away.
What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?
- Scouts should allow groups to better attack groups and installations. Scouts should provide critical combat intelligence on deployments, weaknesses, defense layouts, etc.
- Scouts should provide some long-range combat support when the fighting starts: Forward Observers, Snipers, etc.
- Scouts should act as Hit-and-Run attackers, and resource raiders.
- Scouts should be able to disrupt the creatures used by the enemy.