Development Cycle Archive
Thread: IC 1-4: Combat Roles; Combat Medic
I posted this in the combat medic forum and I think it is fitting to post here. It is a pretty good explanation, among many other good explanations on why the CM is not as overpowered as you say they are.
CMs have been saying for a long time that when you consider the resources we have to collect, the fact that we have no skills to find them and collect them ourselves and the rarity of our resources, we are well balanced in combat. I decided to run some numbers just for comparison.
I took the best resource counts I could find for the FWG5 pistol schematic, since I am not a weaponsmith I don't know for sure if my numbers are correct I got these from Allakhazam's Website. http://swg.allakhazam.com/db/abilities.html?swgability=249
An FWG5 takes:
- 30 Iron
- 15 Ferrous Metal
- 6 Metal
- 29 DuraAlloy Steel
- 17 Plumbum Iron
- 12 Axidite Iron
- 20 Quadranum Iron
- 8 Phrik Aluminum
- 5 Diatu Copper
- 5 Ostrine Ore
- 16 Irolunn Reactive Gas
- 10x Polymer
- Total = 173 Resources
This is to make the best FWG5 in the game. There are some optional components which I did not count here.
For a combat Medic AoE poison
- 12 Non Ferrous
- 20 Fungi
- 25 Liquid Petrochem
- 50 Class 2 Liquid Petrochem
- 50 Yavinian Fiberplast
- 56 Titanium Aluminum
- 56 Eleton Reactive Gas
- 48 Tolium Reactive Gas
- 48 Class 1 Radioactive
- Total 365 Units.
That is more than twice the amount to make a single FWG5. Now it could be argued that we have a lot more bang for the buck for that amount of resources and I would tend to agree with you. That is how it should be. These poisons are used up. There is no repairing them, when we use them up, they are gone and we have to do it all over again. It could be argued that a single FWG5 that is well maintained could last a player forever. Even if we experiment up our charges we will still run out. Just for comparisons sake though, lets take a look at one on one poison
- 8 Non Ferrous Metal
- 20 Fungus
- 20 Liquid Petrochem
- 25 Class 2 Petrochem
- 25 Yavinian Fiberplast
- 56 Eleton Reactive Gas
- 56 Titanium Aluminum
- 48 Tolium Reactive Gas
- 48 Class 1 Radioactive
- Total 306 resources
This poison will effect one person. The poisons I make like this have 26 charges on them. 26 uses and it is over. Now that effectively says that if my target does not resist,I can get 26 combats out of this poison and it is gone forever. How many combats can you get from your FWG5?
Now consider that many of these resources are very very rare. I have not seen Tolium gas on Ahazi for over a month now, and what I saw before that was very poor quality. Class 1 radioactive is in many cases non-existant on most servers. It has not been on Ahazi for some time now. These are all necassary to create those 400 - 600 per tick poisons. Not only are they necassary, they also have to be very good. Weaponsmiths are effected by the same thing of course but let us consider that a weaponsmith will sell his best FWG5 for over 100K and has the skill to collect his own resources, or at least should have. A combat medic has no way to sell these wares to anyone else other than other CMs. We have to pay for resources, either by getting them ourselves or paying others to get them for us, and we have no way to recup those costs.
OH and let me say this too, the one on one poison thatam using right now ticks for 470 points every ten seconds.
My wife as a Novice Pistoleer can do on average 250 points ever 1.5 seconds. Now compare those numbers.
10 seconds / 1.5 seconds per attack = 6.666 attacks per 10 seconds.
For this purpose lets say she gets 6 attacks at 250 points per attack. She can do 1500 points in that ten seconds compared to my whopping 470.
Many pistoleers would look at that damage output and scoff. She is not a hardcore player and is quite happy with that weapon. So go figure.
SO I thought this might shed a little light for those of you who are screaming to nerf the CMs. It probably will not change the opinion of the masses, but maybe just maybe you should consider these numbers. I have heard the Rifleman screaming for a long time that their best weapon, the T21 is not available to them because of the resource shifts. This what we CMs go through all the time. THe difference is that a T21 will last you a lot longer than the poisons we make will last us.
Speaking as a Master CM...
CM is a hybrid profession, and in that vein it has elements of both the normal combat professions and the support-based medic profession. In the support role, you get area and ranged heals and terrain negotiation. In the fighting role, you get poisons and diseases, and the requirement to possess ranged weapon support IV, which almost by default gives you level IV in a ranged weapon of your choice.
Most of the folks crying for nerfs seem to be from a PVP perspective. I only do PVE, and I can tell you that CMs are relegated to almost solely a support role in PVE. Poisons are a nice DoT boost, but they can't compete with any advanced combat profession in PVE. Diseases are completely and utterly worthless in PVE. Ranged support is ok, but not terribly useful, as is your basic weapon skill.
What I think is missing from CM is:
- Resuscitate. This skill is essential to someone trying to support a group in combat out in the field. It belongs more with CM than with doctor. Give docs diseases and give CMs rez.
- Defense bonues. Why are CMs the only advanced combat profession with NO defensive bonuses? Even /musicians/ get defense bonuses. This is silly.
- Weapon flexibility. Instead of requiring RWS IV, allow flexibility to be a ranged or brawler character.
Xytroncore wrote:
It is better then the nerfs, but not by much. As I said, without any deffences right now there's no way we'd even live to see the half life let alone the poison even seeing the half life.
Also how will docs cures factor into this, does the cure still ralate to the effectiveness of the poison or will it be a per stage thing in the poison's development, like really easy to cure at the beggining and impossible to cure when it gets to it's most potent stage?
I really don't see my post as a "nerf" other than the immunity timer and resistance gearthat I suggested. In one of the examples I gave, a master CM would have the potential of a 4000 tick of damage in PvE or a 1000 tick of damage in PvP (before any resistance reductions)if a poison had an effectiveness of 400. There are AoE poisons that have more than 400 effectivness on them now. The resistance gear just gives people an option to defend themselves against medical DoTs. I really think PvP battles should last more than 30 seconds.
As for CM defenses, I am not sure if we should get damage migitation or if we should depend on our medicine skills for "defensive" abilities. The smoke granade would be an example of how we could depend on medicine skills for defensive ability. If a CM were to launch a AoE DoT and then a Smoke granade for cover. The DoT would continue to tick away and cause damage while the smoke cover would reduce the chance of being hit by enemy fire. This would effectivly give the CM ranged defense. Allowing CM's to apply status effects would also help to give "defensive Ability". Nausa could prevent the enemy from firing on you while they are coughing up a lung, Intimidate reduces the damage output of the enemy, Blind reduces the accuracy of the enemy, I would consider thesedefensive abilities if they were given to the CM.
What defines theCombat Medicrole in combat?
I like to think of CMs as crowd control. Most effective in larger scale fights due to their AoE capabilities. Excelling in group oriented encounters, less so in 1 on 1. More of a support role than a uber solol33t pvp template.
What basic combat elements should they possess?
Aside from their current Poison and disease...unique stims available to only CMs. Similar to pet stims, they would heal health, action, and mind. Tweak the potency and make the resources more difficult to attain for balance.
What offensive abilities?
Similar to now except increase power of poisons and diseasesfor PvE, decrease for PvP. Every profession should take a reduction in PvP, no exception, but balance it by making CMs more potent in PvE.
What defensive abilities?
Some melee and ranged defenses, but not too much.Mostly dependent on others and/or using their 'spare' skillpoints to focus on this issue.
What unique abilities?
Ability to heal their own mind as well as others, but effectively, not in it's current state. Via unique stims. Extremely effective with their AoE usage, playing the crowd control role. Brings a lot to the table in a group role. Support, offensively and defensively.
Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?
This is where they should excel. With their AoE attacks and AoE heals (including mind.) Not too lethal by themselves, but stick them in a group where people can help defend them, and they can help turn the tide of battle.
How could/should they interact with other professions?
A good source of cummulative damage, outstanding support with AoE ranged heals.
What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?
Semi-dependent on others for tanking, attaining aggro, etc. Less viable than other classes for solo encounters and most viable for group encounters.
What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?
The ultimate crowd control class. Excels in group atmosphere. Less 'solo' capabilities. Should be geared towards group type encounters in my opinion.
Other
In context with what I've mentioned above, make resources a bit easier to attain for CMs with the exception of the stims that would add mind heals. With an increase in PvE damage and reduction in PvP, I don't see how making the resources needed a bit easier to attain, a big problem.
What defines theCombat Medicrole in combat?
Combat medics are the life and death role of battle. We alone can't win a battle, but teamed with a CM increases your teams odds of survival DRAMATICALLY.
What basic combat elements should they possess?
Disease and poisons are the bread / butter ofa CMs combat ability. Suggestions have been noted that a damage reduction is needed.
If this is indeed instituted then state changes should follow up after a poisoning. In real life people experience nausea, dizziness, maybe even temporary blindness suffering from a poison. A player may not die from a poison, but he should be meant to suffer trying to toy with a snake.
What offensive abilities?
Damage over time from poisons and/or diseases. Possible state changes if a damage reduction occurs.
What defensive abilities?
Ranged stims and AOE stims are nice defense for combat. However, AOE poisons cause all members that were poisoned to go "dynamic" on the 1 player who tossed it. This makes for a bad situation (especially for a wookiee and have no armor).
A look into better ranged defenses might help to keep a CM in the fight.
What unique abilities?
CMs are the only class that has the ability to heal the mind. Healing a mind more than twice is usually suicide for us. The possible creation of a mind stim giving minimalmind points for docs or a ranged "A" stim for combat medics (enough to get a player to his feet) would be nice. Possibly give these specific heals a different timer than the standard heal / wait 4 sec / heal / wait 4 sec...
Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?
There are only a couple of classes out there that can be effective in a group situation. Having folks like a combat medic, or a squad leader SHOULD help to secure a victory over an opposing group that does not have these classes. Such is the very nature of these classes.
How could/should they interact with other professions?
More so than most crafting professions combat medics need very SPECIFIC materials in order to be effective. Since we have no surveying ability, we are dependent on other players for resources. I myself have actually paid artisans to survey sources for me. We have also seen some weapons looted off of NPCs that have to ability to poison/disease. It may be possible to create an item to substitute a piece in the creation of player weapons through weaponsmiths. Granted not to be as strong as a CM poison, butstrength of thepoison would depend on theCM's ability and resources.
What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?
The anti-combat medic should be the doctors. Doctors have the ability to cure and should given this ability to cure our poisons/diseases (no matter how strong)in 1 or 2 uses of their medicines.
What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?
St1lgar wrote:
I want to see a good nerf on the poisons and diseases Devs.. I helped you to make this class what it is today but i never wanted to see the CM as KILLER !!! A Combat Medic shouldnt be a mind poison killing machine.. Makes me sick to see what happened to this class and how ppls use it in PvP meanwhile... I agree poisons and disease should remain a combat medics tool but they shouldnt be such killers how they are currently.. Minimal poison damage and minimal diseases should be enough for this class cause the main role of the CM should be HEALING not KILLING !
Nerf their Poisons and Diseases quick as possible .. i saw enough CM Wars meanwhile and it makes me sick how PvP is ruined through this class !
Hmmm nice appeal, who are you again?
I've been a CM since the beginning of the game and I've never heard of you. Just to be sure I just did a search. You have not once posted on the CM boards, this claim is nothing short of a lie. Sorry but your caught.
St1lgar wrote:
I want to see a good nerf on the poisons and diseases Devs.. I helped you to make this class what it is today but i never wanted to see the CM as KILLER !!!
How about this for a new weapon (taken from planetside sort of lol) a radiator type weapon, a gun that shoots concentrated radiation that when makes contact with something it balloons out and covers say a 20m radius and anyone inside that 20m radius takes damage over time. It would be pretty weak (like 10dps to start with, maybe working up to 30dps or something) and would last for 60 seconds. This would be the ultimate crowd control weapon, it would force people to where you want them to go, yet not overpowering or what not (not stackable...but again, armor shouldn't protect against this, it's pure radiation and can be avoided by just moving out of the way). And it wouldn't be a DOT as we see now, since there would be nothing to cure, the cure per se would be moving out of the effected irradiated field.
Now, I'm thinking a weaponsmith should have to make the weapon (basic components would give it an unexperimented range of around 10m (assuming half decent materials), can be experimented to max of 30m), Adv materials would cover the rest of the ranges, 30m unexperimented to a max of 64. And a combat medic would have to make the ammo for it (unexperimented charges of 10, power could be experimental, but a cap at 25 power (combat medic effectiveness mods do not equate into more damage in this case) and it should be made with Tolium and Eleton reactive gases, as well as the class2 liq petro and titanium aluminum for the casings). And recharging the weapon would work like a powerup, drag and drop over the weapon. Maybe call the weapon the Radiator (a la planetside lol). The speed of the weapon should be 5 or 6, we should be able to get at least 50 speed throughout our tree to be able to increase our speed 50%, we'd never hit the 1 second speed cap, so it can't really be spammed, and having to watch ammo would insure that too. As for HAM costs accociated with this I'd think it should be something like 15/15/90 (maybe even 100 mind) since this thing should be used strategically only, not el spammo weapon.
Just a rough new idea, I may be able to live with a 75% nerf in poison damage if we had something even remotely useful to back it up with, like this, we'd truely become a support class with this.
As for cert placement I'd say place it at thethird tierof the Range tree (since it's got nothing going for it right now) with +10 speed for it at the tops of every tree and another +10 at master combat medicand put the schematic for the ammo at the top of the crafting tree. This would help to insure that people can't just get novice combat medic and get a pretty useful weapon like this.
Anyone with opinions?
StrikerNI wrote:
Combat Medicswill say that the poison output on a CM is too low/just right. Most everyone else will disagree.
The role of the combat medic should be to keep players alive *DURING COMBAT*. Currently, the only use of the CM is to apply poison and then wait for the group's mind to go to 1.
When you have two groups of 20 players fighting each other, and then one group has a CM to use an Area of Effect poison, the fight is over. It's unbalancing.
Now, any group knows to bring a doctor with them, but the problem is doctor's can hardly heal their own poison before getting killed. Let alone a group of 19 others. If a group has to have 5 doctors with them just to counter *one* combat medic, it's out of balance.
What combat medics are currently useful for:
- Poisons
- Diseases
That's it. No one needs them for healing anymore because, frankly, why get healed when you have 4500points of health buffsand a full suit of 80% composite?
The role of the Combat medic should focus less on poisons, and more on healing. Here you have the mind issue.
Since mind is currently the #1 killer in PVP, it's only natural that combat medics will seem to be overpowered. They can target the mind with a substance that no-one has any defense against.
Also with the current nerf to Commando DoT's and other bleeds this leaves CM very out of balance. Bring their DoT's down to the 75% PvP damage like everyone else as suggested. As a master Doctor I agree that they need something to compensate them for the DoT reduction, if it happens. I see no reason why they shouldn't get a mind buff, they can already heal it why not be able to buff it?
Anywho, I don't see how poisons and disease fit into the combat doc area in the first place? In actuallity they should have combind CM & Doc before release and made disease & poison DoT's a commando deal, but that's just me.