Development Cycle Archive
Thread: IC 1-4: Combat Roles; Combat Medic
Miihas wrote:i think CMs should be able to sell DOTs for weapons... that would be an effective way of adding them to the economy instead of just the battlefieldM.R.former MCM
Great idea! I assume you mean crafting chem storage devices of some type to be added to weapons to add DOT effects like those found on loot these days, in which case, I'd like to see it happen
Arguments other professions have against CM's
- They can directly target the mind pool - mind heal issue
- They cause too much damage in PvP - roughly damage is 70dps IMO not an issue, most complaints caused by the mind heal issue
- There is no counter for the AoE poisons / Diseases - Doc cure issue
- (old) poison lasts too long - the incap dance issue
- (new) poison + disease will incap - incap dance issue
- CM's never miss - CM has no accuracy mods, poison / disease always hits the selected mark
- CM is too easy to master for the power they have in PvP - experience/time to master issue
- There is no protection against a poison tick - if the target dosen't resist the Medical DoT then they are hit for full effect, there is no in between.
- CM poisons don't get hit with the 75% reduction like all other professions, it's not fair - medical DoT's have too low of a DPS to survive a 75% reduction.
Medical Dots
In a previous post I suggested that medical DoT's should start with a low tick of damage and then double the damage every tick untill a DoT's half-life is reached. Although part of me would like to see a possible poison tick of 36000+ damage on a long duration poison, this would be a bit overpowered and everyone would really start screaming nerf. I believe the slow start on medical DoT's could be a key factor in balancing the Doc cure issue so here is a modified suggestion, although some changes to the current system will need to be made for it to work.
or
400 * 10 = 4000 base potential maximum damage per tick
or
4000 * 0.25 = 1000 modified max damage tick
(novice CM) 1000 modified max damage PvP (250 PvP cap) = 25 first tick, 50 second tick, 75 third tick
Currently a target only has one chance of evading the effects of poison or disease and it is not dependant on a CM skill but rather the potency of the DoT itself. This should still remain in game for a chance of total resistance but a chance to reduce dot damage could be put in game. My suggestion would be to make the Medical DoT "Hit" the targets armor when the dot is thrown. Single target medical dots would "hit" one of sections of armor (boots, gloves, chest, legs, etc) and use a modifier on that armor piece to reduce the modified maxdamage cap on a poison. Poison and disease resists can be put on some of the armor segments that drop from various creatures so that armorsmiths can create poison/disease reduction gear. Poison and disease reduction mods should be seperate for balance. AoE poisons/diseases should always hit the helmet of the target. The caluclation could use potency on the dot to determine how much of a reduction in the modified max damage tick would take place. For an example let's say a master CM (CM effectiveness +100) throws a 127 potency 400 effectiveness poison at a PvP target and it hits an armor piece that has 50% poison resist
poison effectivenes * 10 = 400 * 10 = 4000 for the base potential maximum damage tick
CM effectiveness mod * base potential maximum damage tick = 1 * 4000 = 4000 modified maximum damage tick
PvP target reduction of 75% = 4000 * 0.25 = 1000 PvP max damage tick
PoisonReduction==true 50% of 127 = 63.5 rounded down would be damage reduced to 63%
End PvP max damage tick = 1000 * 0.63 = 630 Max Damage Cap on a poison tick
First tick of damage 10% of 630 or 63 points. Second Tick of damage 20% of 630 or 126 points of damage etc...
Please note that steps would need to be taken to prevent the potency calculation from increasing the maximum damage tick cap. Potency would be the CM's counter against medical dot reduction gear but would lower overall effectiveness of the poison during crafting/experimentation some playing with numbers would be needed to find a "balance" .
Currently when a CM throws a medpack, it always "hits" the target. There is no accuracy check, only checks on range, LoS, and a possibility of resist, I would like to suggest an accuracy check. The CM range modifier would need to be changed to an accuracy modifier and would come into play when a CM tries to throw a medpack beyond the listed range on the medpack. All of the CM medpacks would be allowed to be thrown 64m but there would be a chance of actually missing the intended target if the medpack was not experimented to 64m or the CM is not at the master level with a +100 to range. AoE packs thrown beyond the listed range and "missing" the target would still go off on a random gridpoint within range of the CM or could land on an unintended target. Single target medpacks will miss or hit an unintended target. If the single target medpack misses a target, it could then be left on the ground in a friend or foe condition for a limited time. Anyone "tripping" the medpack could get hit with the effect wether it be a ranged stim E or a Poison C. Squad Leaders and commandos could be given skills to automaticly "disarm/flag" or "use" the rogue medpack. Poison and Disease duration timers should start ticking as soon as it hits the ground. The accuracy check could be
CM range modifier / 100
so a CM with a range modifier of +50 would have a 50% chance of hitting a target beyond the listed range on the medpack. Medpacks should be changed so range could be experimented close to the 64m mark if this change did take place so the master CM's could aid the novice CM that has limited range.
This friggen thing....I have a suggestion if the above medical DoT system has sparked some interest. When the player is in a poisoned condition and is incapped by the poison, the maximum damage tick cap will be reduced 50% and a status effect (blind, dizzy, intimidate, nausa (selfish plug) etc) will be added to the player for an equal amount of time left on the poison duration timer. When the player finally recovers from the incap, the poison will begin to tick again but at the first step based on 10% of the newly reduced maximum damage tick cap. After a second Incap, a second status effect would be added and the poison condition would be cleared. Using a PvP example from above where the Max Cap was 630 after armor reductions, my suggesion would look something like this
original 630 max cap damage = first tick of 63, second tick 126, third tick 189
player becomes incapped, status effect applied, status timer = poison timer, max cap reduced 50%
new max damage cap 315 = first tick 31, second tick 63, third tick 94
player becomes incapped, second status effect added, second status timer = poison duration timer, poison condition is cleared
With the slow start on poison damage this should help the doctor to overcome the AoE medical DoT issue, but it may not be enough to fully counter the effects of a CM's AoE abilities. A possible solution is when a doctor cures a player of a medical Dot, an immunity timer would be placed on the target player equal to the duration timer that was left on the DoT. This would prevent the CM from re-applying a DoT to a target that was just cured. Another pass will be needed on poison and disease cures to bring them in line and balanced. Most notably on the disease cures which have an effectiveness equal to the poison cures. CM disease effectiveness is substantually lower than poison effectiveness giving doctors an unfair advantage if the above change were to take place.
I would like to suggest a change on how CM's earn their master title. Currently only medicine crafting xp and healing xp is required for a novice CM to reach the master level. I would suggest that the Combat support line require combat xp instead of healing xp. It is argued by other professions that a CM is not a "combat" profession but only a healing profession. I dissagree with this argument, but the type of xp currently earned in the CM tree does suggest that CM's should only be healers. Some weapon specials and possibly a cert for a CM weapon could be added to the support line of CM. Weapon specials should be limited to "crowd controll" tactics which would prevent enemy advancement on a fallen allies position.
CM's need new stuff. I like the idea of CM crafted group buffs that would be used by Squad Leaders. I also think that a squad Leader should be able to raise a players skills beyond the +25 cap in place now. Medical DoT landmines would be a nice addition for the GCW. Smoke Granades that would give "cover" for your group by reducing the chance of getting hit by enemy fire but would also reduce your chance of hitting the enemy. This would be usefull for doctors rushing to revive a player in a heavy fire fight. Cures for the Fire DoT might be more in line with doctor skills, but it would be a nice addition as well. Status effect packs that would cause dizzy, nausa, blind, intimidate, fear, etc would be nice.
There needs to be a better way to heal the mind pool. The new chef buffs might help a bit but I am unsure at this time if it will be enough to balance combat. If mind healing is added to stims, it should be limited to the E line, and possibly D stim packs so only doctors or High level Medics can heal mind. All CM stims could be allowed to heal mind since you are required to be at least a Novice CM to use them. There would be a "balance" issue if any yahoo with novice medic could heal their own mind, and would also take away part of the "role" of doctors and CM's.
LordHavoc450 wrote:
CM's make fighting boring and quick.....one mind poision /disease and the fight is over
I hate to cry nerf but they seriously ruin PvP wars.... Sorry guys but CMs need to be nerfed hard core, they should be healers of combat not combat gods.
lmfao!!!! Maybe, just maybe, if you didn't stand ontop of each other ONE poison and ONE disease wouldn't come close to equalling game over. Also, maybe if you had the common sense to have a doc that one poison or one disease wouldn't mean squat (yes, even having just one doc means one poison doesn't equate to jack all and makes your statement irrelivent).
We have 0 deffence, we can be one shot or 2 shot killed by any proffession and armor doesn't do us a whole lot of good since we have no mitigation, so we take about 25% more damage then anyone else.
And we should be healers eh? How often do you ever incap in your health or action pool when you've been buffed in all 6 of your health and action bars and substats? Not too often eh? I'm sure we would have more of a place in healing if 99% of PvP damage didn't revolve around mind damage. I'm certainly not going to ever use mind heal in PvP.
Xytroncore wrote:
(novice CM) 1000 modified max damage PvP (250 PvP cap) = 25 first tick, 50 second tick, 75 third tick
lmao...holy cow, And what level of poison is that? A? lol, if that's a C poison you'd better just give up now, if someone was to throw that the person would just laugh at you as they wipe the floor with your ass. lol, complete joke there buddy.
that would be a C poison thrown by a NOVICE COMBAT MEDIC, no skill mods. If the same poison were thrown by a master CM the max tick of damage would be 4000 so with the PvP reduction it would be 1000. of course tick 1 would not be for 1000 damage but would build up to it in time.
Xytroncore wrote:
Edit: That thing that I quoted is just retarded because there's no way in hell that anyone would live long enough to even see the half life since it's so weak, if it wasn't possible to buff regen stats to insane high levels that whole thing might make sense, but if anyone has even 1000 willpower a 25, 50, 75, 100, hell even a 250 tick wouldn't hurt (since by that time they'd have taken 0 damage from the first 5 ticks or so, and there'd have been only a couple hundred damage built up before that half life tick hit them)
I'm sorry, something like that and introducing poison caps and crap like that just makes us useless.
as I stated in the disclaimer at the begining...the numbers are not solid, just an overall example on how the system would work. The slow increase could only apply to the AoE dot's since they are the main reason I came up with this. Also, battles will become MUCH longer if there were a solid mind heal in place.
numbers can be changed fairly easily, but whole systems can't....which is what would happen if my suggestion were to be considered, so It prolly won't see the light of day. I just got tired of all the posts "CM's need a Nerf" with no other input or ideas, at least there is a chance that something helpfull might come out of my post.
not being a CM but having faced them many time i orrer these comments
CMs need to apply there poisons and disease with a weapon and that weapon takes into account the other players defenses like any other weapon
the medic profession needs a cure poison skill like the first aid bleed cure so soldiers can help themselves to a degree against poisons and disease
If a Rifleman can shoot at range a 64 limit ,why can a CM throw a weapon with his arm farther ?
Area poisons are too strong and should be cut at least 50%
CMs should recieve a SMG as their weapon with all the nessary mods for it in thier class structure as well as the same defenses as a rifleman it should also have special attacks that delay and posture change their opponants so the CM can retreat from a bad position carrying a incapped player
The ability to carry a player without consent that they are grouped ( or of the same faction )with if the group member is incaped
Fix the clone center so disease and poisons and damage doesnt carry over to the clone...clone means you are returned to health as you were when you cloned not as you died Sheech !
CM should not require marksman their combat mods and specialsshould be inside there tree
As it is and as it has been CM is a griefing profession (anyone who have actually done pvp in groups knows this is true )and i havent been interested in it for that reason it should be more of what its name implys so it can be a fun yet valuable profession that is more appealing to NON power gammers
LevaOripa wrote:
not being a CM but having faced them many time i orrer these comments
CMs need to apply there poisons and disease with a weapon and that weapon takes into account the other players defenses like any other weapon
Several porblems wih this. First (and I rally need to double-check this is still in) CMs do use a weapon. At past 45m or so the animation usualy changes to one as if the CM were using a grenade launcher, not throwing the weapon. Beyond which, however, the "grenade" is a self-lauching weapon anyway. It is crafted just like any other wepon, and has less uses available, even. As noted above the CM wepaon also takes more resources (and for less uses) than an FWG5. The CM weapon also does less damage per second than that FWG5 as well.
the medic profession needs a cure poison skill like the first aid bleed cure so soldiers can help themselves to a degree against poisons and disease
This already exists as a Doctor skill. Moving the skill down to Medic would certainly be harmful to the Doctor profession, the profession whch is the direct (and complete in the case of singular DoTs) counter to CMs.
If a Rifleman can shoot at range a 64 limit ,why can a CM throw a weapon with his arm farther ?
For shooting farther, this has been acknowledged, several times now, as a bug. It is being looked into and 64m should be the range cap on CM DoTs.
Area poisons are too strong and should be cut at least 50%
Area poisons are not too strong, they simply lack a proper counter. It should also be noted that in almost all cases where someone declares CM poisons as being too strong they are directly referring to Mind Damage.
I think that after the Combat Revamp that will likely no longer be an issue as Mind Damage will likely be healable once that occurs.
[snip of CM weapon suggestion]
The ability to carry a player without consent that they are grouped ( or of the same faction )with if the group member is incaped
Well they can already /drag a player in the same group with them without the need for consent (unless there is a TEF involved to prevent it.) CMs have been looking for a few more options on this front, however.
Fix the clone center so disease and poisons and damage doesnt carry over to the clone...clone means you are returned to health as you were when you cloned not as you died Sheech !
Has this bug come back? As far as I was aware it was fixed several months ago. Are you sure this is still occuring? If so it is definitely a bug, not something to blame CMs for, so be sure to /bug it in game when it occurs and post over on the CM (or Doc or Medic) forum about it to make sure it gets back in front of the Devs to fix it again.
This should have been fixed, though. I haven't seen any issues with this in months.
Xytroncore wrote:
It is better then the nerfs, but not by much. As I said, without any deffences right now there's no way we'd even live to see the half life let alone the poison even seeing the half life.
Also how will docs cures factor into this, does the cure still ralate to the effectiveness of the poison or will it be a per stage thing in the poison's development, like really easy to cure at the beggining and impossible to cure when it gets to it's most potent stage?
I was thinking the doc cures could be related to the current "tick" of the poison, so as the tick increased in damage,it would become more difficult to cure. This would help to create an incentive for a doctor to cure the poison ASAP so it could be neturalized with only one or two cure applications. Also, the rate of tick increase and effectivness modifiercould be placed on the poison/disease packs. Since the A and B packs have a short half-life and low effectivnesscompaired to the C poisons, the tick damage would need to step up quicker (maybe double) so the full damage tick would be realized by the CM.
The poison and disease cures in game now would need another pass to adjust the effectivness values since if the DoT is cured there will be a "temporary" immunity to the type of DoT cured (health, action, or mind) So the C level cure would not need to take out a C level poison in one shot at peek effectivness because a CM could not apply the same poison type to a player that was just cured. This would help betterbalance the overpowerd AoE DoTs without giving doctors an AoE cure,and allow doctors to move on to the next patient.
It is better then the nerfs, but not by much. As I said, without any deffences right now there's no way we'd even live to see the half life let alone the poison even seeing the half life.
Also how will docs cures factor into this, does the cure still ralate to the effectiveness of the poison or will it be a per stage thing in the poison's development, like really easy to cure at the beggining and impossible to cure when it gets to it's most potent stage?