Development Cycle Archive

6. Great so what your telling me is there is going to be another sparkly new useless feature, wow that is just what the jedi need.

9. Then you need to indefinitely delay the publish. Reflecting blaster fire was the signature of a Jedi. It is what pushes the wow button when you watch Return of the Jedi it was the promise of a new hope. It was the single thing that made Jedi viable in a technologically based society filled with people who used blasters. To not have this means you have a jedi with a glorified glowstick. That isn't acceptible. Its an oversight that quite simply doesn't even do justice to the setting and the games that have came before it, everything from KOTOR and even the ANCIENT game Dark Forces. Jedi were never supposed to be balanced. Please remember that. You made alot of us go through hell to unlock our slots, and we do deserve to have something meaningfull and fun in return, we EARNED that.

13. This is what I don't get. How the hell are jedi supposed to get all this experience, if they can't kill anythign because they are having their asses handed to them by nunas? So your taking away the composite, one of the only things that made my jedi playable. Do you have any idea how angry this is going to make me when I can't beat things I destroyed earlier? I really don't think you do. I am hoping and praying I am wrong on this as well. I hope I am not being nerfed to uselessness because if I am correct and my jedi is about to become TEDIOUS to play.

Message Edited by WarlordRhawn on 06-23-2004 01:16 PM

Message Edited by VipEVX-Nine on 06-23-2004 05:40 PM

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Thunderheart wrote:

21: Jedi are not being designed to be the perfect solo character that can defend against all other classes. Jedi are not “scrappers” and by definition, Teras Kasi was developed specifically to fight Jedi at close range.This will be especially true when Jedi are given the ability to block ranged attacks back at their opponents. Melee attacks are something the Jedi should be wary of.

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Message Edited by Dracass on 06-23-2004 02:47 PM

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Thunderheart wrote:

Jedi are not being designed to be the perfect solo character that can defend against all other classes. Jedi are not “scrappers” and by definition, Teras Kasi was developed specifically to fight Jedi at close range.This will be especially true when Jedi are given the ability to block ranged attacks back at their opponents. Melee attacks are something the Jedi should be wary of.

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TH... are these your thoughts? The shared thoughts of yours and the Developers? Or are you just relaying the Developers concepts with this statememt?

I am sorry, but that is the most ridiculous concept I have ever heard regarding Jedi.

Please, who ever is responsible, get off of your high-horse and re-evaluate this concept.

Jedi, with lightsabers, should be wary of going into melee combat with another elite melee profession?

Most of all another elite melee profession that uses hand to hand combat?

Look, I am not saying to make the Jedi easily defeat any and all elite melee characters... but the concept that a Jedi's weakness lies in melee combat against TKA's is absolutely insane.

Please, inform us long-time Star Wars Fans how this makes sense.

I don't want to hear about how video-game balances makes this necessary... this contradicts everything a logical person-Hah nevermind logical... any Star Wars Fan- it completely flies in the face of anything that remotely makes sense involving combat with warriors trained to use the Lightsaber as an extension of theirselves.

Even with lightsabers in their hands... we have seen SEVERAL examples of lightsabers cleanly removing hands and limbs from their opponents.

Apparently, the unfortunate Duelists in these cases should have put away their lightsabers and used the all-deadly TKA fighting method (Because we all know by now that just about everyone in the star wars galaxy has TKA skills)

This one example of the Devs' concepts really really makes me wonder. I just don't understand how this could be imagined, okayed, and then okayed even further down the line to actually be brought to the public's attention.

If this concept sticks... it is a blatant example of how wrong the developers' ideas ofincorporating the Jediinto this game truly are.

I don't mean to sound llike I'm flinging stones at you guys... look at my record, I've always been a polite and fair poster... this is just something that really caught my eye, and I would truly love to see this addressed further.

- Omadda Szool

Kauri

Okay, TH/JustG/Devs, here's what I have to say about your responses...

1. XP Loss

Great change for Knights (sort of), but not very considerate for those that aren't.

If a BH "Death-credit loop" exploit is your main concern then how about only making Jedi suffer XP loss when killed by BH's?

If that's not an option then how about bringing back the Death Count system, but instead of skill loss we get the XP loss (when we die that many times)?

Another thing that could be done is to make XP loss less when we have negative Jedi XP.

Or perhaps, make the loss low-cap at zero (no negatives). This would effectively 'punish' us, but not potentially put us in a very deep hole.

As for Jedi Knights, you should reconsider XP loss versus all PvP. Since they will be overt all the time there is a big chance that they will be constantly hounded by huge 'squads' of players trying to kill them any time they try to go anywhere, and make no mistake, they _will_ die.

Seriously, Jedi aren't that good anymore and deaths will be much more frequent, why penalize us so heavily for it?

2. Lightsaber Accuracy

I intend to check this out heavily, but unfortunately it's very hard to do on TC2 with a lack of other professions so it will have to wait (for me to test) until live.

BTW, can we PLEASE get a bottom-line on whether the Force Sensitive Combat Prowess: Melee Accuracy and Melee Speed mods are applied to Lightsabers? This has a big bearing on this point as well.

3. Jedi Lots

So essentially, somebody that has unlocked will be allowed to use their 20 lots? Or only those that are currently using their lots through the /transferStructure command? Will this be penalized in the future?

4. Jedi Toughness Not Working

It doesn't seem like you guys got the gist of what we were saying here. Jedi Toughness hasn't been working against ANYTHING since the Lightsaber vulnerability was added to it. This desperately needs to be fixed, please.

5. Force Defender Usefulness

It's very simple, Force Armor and Shield need to go back into Defender, they were meant to be there, period.

However, if you are determined to leave them in their new home, then Defender should be made into what they truly should be. Add in a Blaster Deflection Counter Attack special with mods (or just mods). Add in Melee Dodge mods, or maybe make it a special. Center of Being would be nice too, if it was fixed to work better. I also think that Melee and Ranged Mitigation should be in there, even if it is getting taken out of the game, it would be a good 'Jedi-only' skill.

Yes TKA (and other melee profs) are supposed to be a threat to us, but think about it, Darth Maul never just sat around and let himself get hit. Dodging is an essential skill of any Jedi that fights other Jedi where one hit can mean instant death.

I agree with the devs in that Jedi should not be the end-all of templates, however through customization you should be able to direct what you specialize in. Lightsaber combat, Defending, Healing, Force Powers, and Force manipulation. If you choose to be a Jedi Master Defender you should be able to effectively defend against anything, this is the point of having one discipline entirely devoted to defense... isn't it?

6. Jedi Meditation

I agree that buffing may be asking for a little too much, but what about wound healing and DoT removal? I know Healing has these abilities, but those are instant, this would be an out-of-battle-over-time thing, which isn't unbalancing. This same ability is granted to TKA's for a mere 92 skill points (or even just 49 points for the meditiation line alone), is that considered "extremely unbalanced"?

I don't think anyone cares about emotes over functionality...

7. Voting Terminal Timer

Let us know when it's fixed, will test...

8. Force Power Standing Animation "Locking"

Wasn't this fixed for the Fencer's dodge animation? Couldn't Force Powers be changed to only use the running animation instead?

9. Lightsaber Blaster-Reflection Counterattack

This would be awesome, but we need more details please (you must have some ideas):

• Will this be a special ability or just mods?


• Where will it be located, Lightsaber or Defender?


• Will it only deflect default attacks or specials too?


• Will it deflect the attack to the attacker or to the Jedi's current combat target (which might not be the attacker)?


• Will the full power of the deflected attack be incurred by the target of the deflection?


• Will it work against cone and area attacks? What will the attack be deflected back as (eg. a deflected cone attack deflects as a single attack or a cone attack)?


• What about heavy weapons like Flamethrowers, LLC's, and Rocket Launchers?


• Will it work against creatures' ranged attacks?

10. Two-hand Lightsaber Blocking Animation

Let us know when it's fixed, will test...

11. XP Loss Decay Timer

Please refer to my points for item number 1.

You also need to consider the Knight Trials and the great number of deaths that will no doubt be incurred doing them.

12. Conversion Rates

Looking forward to seeing this. Can't wait for you guys to make up your minds... it's been very frustrating.

13. Robe Resists

This is another point that I think was only partly interpreted.

WE WANT SOME SORT OF PROTECTION ON ROBES! Please!

This inlcudes Padawans. We want either Jedi Toughness mods (and not taken out of or redistributed from the Defender discipline) or Resists versus damage types (ie. Kinetic, Energy, Acid, etc.)! We were promised that robes would offer this sort of protection, without it (and our inability to wear armor) we will be the joke of PvP and PvE.

14. Master Healer Curing Fire DoT's

Cool

Does it work for Total Heal Other now too?

15. Lightsaber Component Conversion

You realize how much money, time, and effort people have put into making these sabers and acquiring these components, right? Friendly warning: Tread carefully over this thin line...

Also, current reports from TC-Valcyn are stating that Single Crystals that are not in Lighstabers are now converting to Color Crystals and that Twin Crystals not in Lightsabers are converting to Power Crystals. Is this intended? We NEED to know, a lot of us have purposely put all of our Single Crystals into Lightsabers and kept our Twins separate so that we can at least fare well in the conversion. If this is true then it's a major punch in the face to a lot of us...

16. Move Force Run 1 to Novice Enhancer

What are you talking about TH? Where is this 50% run increase? Are you referring to Burst Run? And where can we choose Terrain Negotiation skills? Please tell me you don't you mean the +5 in the FS Enhanced Reflexes: Survival tree, because that's a cruel joke then. Jedi still get NO Terrain Negotiation, anywhere... and this was one of our "Top 5" issues I believe (or at one point it was).

17. Move Heal Battle Fatigue 1 to Novice Healer

Powerful? Earned? Not a novice skill? Um, in the old system this was one of the first skills granted to a Jedi since it was in the Novice Padawan (Initiate) box, why is it considered too "powerful" now? Are you aware that Jedi usually acquire 300-500 BF (or more) in one buff session? I'm guessing it will be much worse now since we can't wear armor anymore...

18. Master Healing/Force Powers Getting +Speed Mods

Why is it that these masters are not allowed to benefit from these mods unless they enter the FRS? Aren't they Masters of their profession/discipline? Shouldn't there be a simulated increase in 'skill' as they move up the trees, especially since every other profession in the game works that way? It's pretty cheap to use this as the 'carrot' to dangle in front of people to get them to enter the FRS...

19. Force Sensitive Skills Useless For Jedi

Please go back and read your response through the eyes of the community, what you wrote does not make sense.

Any other 'elite' profession at least has a use for their requirements (in some capacity), we have none and they only serve to artificially limit us. If this is not addressed you can expect it to remain on our "Top 5" until it is.

20. Default Attack Damage Bonus For Low-Level MOB's

Not to be disrespectful, but did you read the request? We are just stating that it seems like a "bug" that our specials have a damage bonus against lower-end mobs but our DEFAULT ATTACKS do not. Shouldn't it be all-encompassing?

21. Jedi Do Not Have An Evasion Mod Versus Melee Attacks

If I'm not mistaken, Jedi are MELEE fighters. This goes beyond PvP, a Master Padawan (pre-Knight) is supposed to be at the pinnacle of PvE, however we have no evasion versus melee attacks, which all creatures use. How does that make sense?

Please refer to my comments about the Defender discipline's usefulness (item #5). To summarize, the Defender discipline should get a Dodge bonus. Otherwise you're relegating us to the same issues that plagued the other melee professions during the beginning of the game, ie. no tanking capacity.

22. Polearm Lightsaber (Lance) Is The Best Saber

Please give us more details on what you envision the three Lightsabers to be after the combat balance. I know it's probably too early, but you must have some idea at this point. Not everyone will get Master Lightsaber so this has a HUGE bearing at this point in regards to selecting our skills (for those that don't do it on looks alone).

• How will they be balanced (ie. One-hand = high speed/low damage, Two-hand = med speed/med damage, Lance = low speed/high damage)?


• What about the bar-specific specials, we have heard that these were going to be removed in the CB, is this true? Or are they just going to have a "higher chance" to hit the desired bar after the CB?


• What about dual-wielding? Will Jedi get this? Will it only be for One-handed Lightsabers? Will it be a Master-only ability?

Major, major info needed on all this for the Jedi's "weapon of choice"...

23. Status Effects Going Through Blocked Attacks

If you guys fix this that would be awesome!

24. Backpacks and Robes

This is unacceptable. We NEED to be able to wear backpacks or have that storage space, ASAP.

25. Force Powers Are Too Weak

We're all keeping an eye on this... Realize that if it is not tweaked proportionately to the other combat types (ie. balanced) then almost no one will master this discipline. Which I hope is not the devs' goal.

26. Hooded Cloaks

You've got to be kidding. When we asked for robes, hooded cloaks were what we meant (and very much desired), instead this request has been turned into one of the worst follies of the revamp.

Case-in-point:

• We can't wear armor anymore


• No resists to damage types, definitely NOT equivalent to high-end composite (as promised)!


• They all look the same, no distinction (such as a coloring option)


• Only one robe for the looooong Padawan gind, and even at the end only the one robe for those that don't want in the FRS


• Can't wear a backpack, bandolier, or some hats, losing carrying capacity and any possibility of BE bonuses or SEA options (no slots)


• NO HOODS!

27. Not Enough Flexibility In Skill Point Requirements For Disciplines

We're not asking to have all the disciplines, just a *little* more flexibility. For example, the current skill point requirements restrict us to basically two and half disciplines (eg. Master + Master + 4400), all we're asking for is a little more, ideally being able to go [Master + Master + 4400 + 4000] or even [Master + Master + 4000 + 4000] would be highly desirable.

Right now it's WAY too restrictive to feel 'comfortable' and it's actually serving to defeat your goal of de-homogenizing Jedi, since most with grab the same basic "power" templates.

Besides, I fail to see how this would be unbalancing. Consider the options available to regular professions. For example, someone can easily grab [Master Fencer + Master Pistoleer + Scout:3000 + Medic:2240] or [Master TKA + Master Rifleman + Smuggler:0010 + Medic:2240]. Is this considered unbalancing? Why can't Jedi have these same sort of template options?

PLEASE re-consider this request, it is a very large concern of the entire Jedi community.

28. Culsion Inert Gas Resource Requirement

Sounds good, as long as you make sure it gets a decent spawn cycle I don't see a problem with this. A really nice bone to throw us would be to spawn some decent Culsion for all serves on publish day.

BTW, on your comment about the open market, you should visit the trade forums. This stuff is currently going for insane prices, once again forcing Jedi to be rich to survive...

There ya go, hopefully this is found (and considered) by a dev!

I'm in green.

Thunderheart wrote:

6. Meditation is the core of being a Jedi. It is the first thing every Jedi does in canon. Meditation should be moved to the Enhancement Novice box, with +meditation mods up the Synergy Tree along with Power boost EXACTLY like the TKA meditation line.

This is extremely unbalancing and not a viable course of action. However, meditating is part of what it means to be a Jedi and we are looking into adding meditation emotes for Jedi after this publish goes out.

The meditation emotes are a great solution to this problem from an RP standpoint. Please include different postures when they are added. Another thing I'd like to see from an RP standpoint is a "mindtrick" emote. Where you could type /mindtrick abc and the result would be the "mindtrick" hand wave and you would say abc. Similar can be done with current emotes, but I think this would be a nice RP tool.

However, I do not really see this as unbalanced. Because of the way the boxes are arranged almost anyone who starts a line finishes that line. If the novice enhancer meditation is very weak then it should cause no imbalance.

11. XP loss should have a decay timer. Negative XP should decay some amount every week to help people get back on their feet.

The changes made to mitigate Force Ranked Jedi from losing XP for fighting each other will solve most of that problem. The rest of the problem should be solved by not throwing yourself into the meat-grinder.

Yes, ranked JvJ should not cause Jedi xp loss. This is a good change. But I really think that NEGATIVE Jedi xp should decay. I won't offer numbers but if it decayed at a rate that set you back to 0 after a week or two it would a sigificant deterant to throwing yourself into the meat-grinder. The decay could also be much slower for ranked Jedi as further deterant to working a loop with BH missions. The point of a NEGATIVE Jedi xp decay is to prevent a Jedi from becoming "gated" from advancement or template change while still providing a deterant (time sink) to Jeid running around Coronet unchecked (and that what it's really all about) and working with BH.

13. Robes of all levels should have *some* sort of armor resists. Padawan who are just starting out in the world could use a Robe with some resists. Higher level Jedi Robes should have +resists to certain things like poison/fire/etc.

The Jedi Development team is against balancing these combat features with the robes. We will work to balance resists to poisons/fire/etc.in a different manner and report back to you.

I seem to remember reading that robes would have resists (from toughness) that would be compairable to high end armor after the CB and that until then there would be behind the scenes mods to increase those resists to the current level of high end armor. All I have to say is that the non-Jedi are going to be pissed when they find their post CB armor to only have +15 to mask scent and 0 resists, but if you say so.

17. Move healbattlefatigueself1 to Novice Healing Box.

No. This is considered a powerful, earned power and not a novice level skill.

I completely dissagree! How is this too powerful? It's not used in combat, because of the delay. All this means is that all Jedi who don't take that line now need to go to cantinas (hard when perma-overt) or get healed by a heal master. Solution... add it to novice box, but increase the delay, or IMO a better idea, make battlefatigue1 not usable in combat. It's no longer too powerful in ANY way.

19. Force Sensitive skills are useless for Jedi. Example: melee accuracy, melee speed, Healing skills, assembly, healing speed....none of these affect Jedi skills at all yet we are forced to learn them.

Yes, they are. Basically, this is 20/20 hindsight and a by-product of the conversion. As a character moves through the Jedi process on a normal progression, Force Sensitivity skills are basic enhancements for "regular" characters to simulate Force Sensitivity. At that point, they are great to have. Once a character becomes a Jedi, they have already moved past those skills and in effect developed their Force powers from sensitivities into full blown powers. In essence, you have all moved past this point but everyone will have to go through this phase in the future.

OK, but can we please get some documentation to what they actually do, so that we can make informed choices on patch day

21. Jedi cannot block melee attacks....at all. This is unacceptable.

Jedi are not being designed to be the perfect solo character that can defend against all other classes. Jedi are not "scrappers" and by definition, Teras Kasi was developed specifically to fight Jedi at close range. This will be especially true when Jedi are given the ability to block ranged attacks back at their opponents. Melee attacks are something the Jedi should be wary of.

Well, I'm not going to say what I really think about this statement (had a lot to do with stupid SW versions of Mortal Kombat, no Teras Kasi in starwars.com databank and slicing limbs and melee weapons in two), because then this wouldn't be constructive...

Fine, I'll accept this. But this better be addressed in the CB! This is Star Wars, melee should be very rare. I don't remember the most feared figures in the movies being non-Jedi melee or medics. So fix combat where seeing a TKM is semi-rare and this is acceptable. As it is today a LARGE portion of the PvP base is high-level melee that are overpowered to the traditional Star Wars weapons (sabers, pistols, carbines, etc.).

22. Polearm saber is superior to the other 2 sabers in everyway given the +100 speed rating at master. This means that every Jedi will be using one for the most part. Please bring the other 2 sabers up to par.

We have been testing this internally. All three sabers will have similar appeal and functionality and we will see even more balance to this issue in the Combat balance. Once the speed formula is altered in the Combat Balance, a Jedi will have the choice of a slower, heavier hitting saber or a quicker lower damage lightsaber. Another factor is special choice, while different Jedi may prefer a body hit while others may prefer the mind hits.

Please fix this! Double is far more desireable to the others. Don't nerf double with increasing the negative effect, that would solve this problem. Please bring the other two (especially the gimped 2-hand) up to par.

24. Jedi should be able to wear a backpack. Losing the 50 item carrying capacity because the art might not mesh perfectly simply isn't fair.

This may be, but it’s a reality of the engine. We are currently investigating giving the robes themselves backpack functionality because Jedi are always pulling neat stuff out of their robes, but it will not happen with this publish.

Great, please hurry.

27. Overall skill point requirements need to either be reduced or one tree collapsed.

Having to spend 24 skill points in force sensitive skills that do NOTHING for Jedi and having all skill boxes RAISED in skill cost is a very bad combo.

8,6,4,2 is simply too restrictive. We have jedi coming from a system where you can have all powers, to a system where you can not possibly have even the most basic powers and be viable.

That's just not "fun." This revamp is about what is fun, as much as what is good for the game as a whole.

We aren't looking for overpowered here, but we would like to be able to have viable templates and still have enough points to learn some of the necessities such as Meditate and Force run. Please lower the skill requirements to 7,5,3,1 which will let Jedi master 2 trees and achieve 4444 in another. This is hardly overpowered, will still allow for great diversification between Jedi, and will discourage dabblers. Please do us this one favor, it is not asking too much.

Absolutely the revamp is about fun. It's also about adding depth and choice to the experience of being a Jedi. Adding additional skill points or reducing the skill costs just further homogenizes Jedi making them all have the same basic abilities. That is completely counter to one of the major goals of this rebalance.

I completely disagree! No matter how you enhance/nerf/balance what is in test now there will always be a select few templates used when it hits live. This is due to the benefits found high in trees at a low SP cost. The key to Jedi diversity is lowering SP cost and allowing Jedi to specialize or dabble. What bothers me most about this is that you had a "sandbox" of TC2 and never gave it a spin to see how it would shake out. Perhaps that was your test by giving Arjun extra boxes, but that is far too low of a sample to test balance and diversity. My suggestion is to push the publish back an additional week (yeah I know, you're already way behind) and give your "sandbox" a real test.

Thank you TH (and Devs) for the feedback. However, this should have been done weeks ago with punchlist 1.2!

Dear devs,

You suck.

Love, Me.

Ps, i hate this publish.

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Thunderheart wrote:

Jedi are not being designed to be the perfect solo character that can defend against all other classes. Jedi are not “scrappers” and by definition, Teras Kasi was developed specifically to fight Jedi at close range.This will be especially true when Jedi are given the ability to block ranged attacks back at their opponents. Melee attacks are something the Jedi should be wary of.

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"Jedi are not being designed to be the perfect solo character that can defend against all other classes." "Melee attacks are something the Jedi should be wary of." These two statements bother me immensely. Can I get a show of hands of who else is bugged by this?

Jedi are MELEE fighters. They use a light SABER (a saber, by it's very definition is a MELEE weapon)! So I'm holding a blade of pure energy (or whatever it is), capable of instantly melting through feet of steel, and I'm supposed to fear the guy standing in front of me with his VK? Huh. So if we aren't a melee profession, I guess we're a ranged profession. Funny that all of our saber specials (except for a few ranged ones that have a max range of 35m) require us to be within melee distance of our target. So here we are, right at the mercy of the people we are supposed to fear, because we have to be within the range of their melee attacks in order to use the vast majority of our specials, or even our default attack. (wish I could've said "melee specials" or "melee default" attack there, but I'm really getting confused now, cause we aren't melee fighters, right?) If jedi are not melee fighters, then it isn't fair that we are forced into combat at a distance that favors the very characters we aren't supposed to be able to defend against. Talk about a Catch-22. It seems to me, that jedi should be the ULTIMATE melee fighters. Isn't it melee combat when two jedi square off in a light saber duel? It's not? Oh, that's right, it's not. hmm. And does it make sense that we should fear a guy with a sword, vk, or polearm over another jedi wielding a freaking saber? Seems to me I should be able to turn that polearm into toothpicks, or remove the appendage attached to the VK or sword. Guess I'm just a slow learner, cause I'm not getting this.

Look, I'm not saying I should be able to tear apart a bunch of Master Fencers, TKA's, Swordsman, etc., but here's a pretty simple summary:

SOE has always said that the players that put the most time and effort into the game would be compensated appropriately. So I spent months grinding to get my FSCS unlocked. I've spent one month(so far)leveling my jedi. In return, I expect a character that IScapable of taking on a Master of any ranged or melee profession in the game. Now of course I don't expect to be able to take on a whole cantina full of masters, but in a one-on-one duel, a Padawan or greater should be able to dispatch any ranged or melee prof in the game, as they HAVE put in the TIME AND EFFORT into their character, vs. a couple weeks at the most for the other non force using professions. And really, isn't that more in line with the movies? Jedi are quite capable of defending themselves vs. ranged and melee attacks.

I still completely back the original punchlist statement: "Jedi cannot block melee attacks. This is unacceptable."

Message Edited by FloorPizza on 06-23-2004 04:04 PM

Message Edited by FloorPizza on 06-23-2004 04:14 PM