Development Cycle Archive
Thread: Roundtable Discussion: GCW and TEFs
Zurck wrote:
Buffing an overt player.
Rubicon49BC wrote:
JanuHull wrote:
How does this open new ambush tactics? Its eliminating the worst of them. If you act in any manner which could have given you a TEF, you are rendered overt. The GTEF is a whole separate ball of wax for its first strike ability, and your idea to TEF people grouped with overts is fine, in fact, if you temp overt players grouped with declared overt players, you can REALLY eliminate the ambush problem.
Rubicon49BC wrote:
Don't make them overt, not even temporary. It only leads to new ambush tactics. Give people a TEF for grouping with an overt, otherwise you're just shifting the problem around.
Ok, 2 scenario's.
I am a covert Imperial and I go stand next to a PC rebel base. I watch people going by and at a certain point an unbuffed overt rebel comes by. I shoot a rebel NPC, turn overt and then wallop the Rebel PC. Ambush nr 1.
I am a covert imperial with 19 covert imperial friends. We go into a group and 19 of us shuttle to a rebel town. Once we are in position, everybody geared up for combat, buddy Nr 20 who stayed behind goes overt with a recruiter. BAM, we are overt too and rip into our enemies. Ambush Nr 2. We can even fight forever as long as buddy nr 20 is overt, since even when we die, we clone overt since we are grouped with an overt.
One more thing, about the ambush. I'm not sure if everybody plays this way, but when I am overt and land anywhere where there are blue dots around, I will quickly turn 360 degrees while hitting the tab key to see if there are any TEFs there. Call me paranoid
Message Edited by Rubicon49BC on 06-23-2004 11:06 AM
JanuHull wrote:
Rubicon49BC wrote:
JanuHull wrote:
How does this open new ambush tactics? Its eliminating the worst of them. If you act in any manner which could have given you a TEF, you are rendered overt. The GTEF is a whole separate ball of wax for its first strike ability, and your idea to TEF people grouped with overts is fine, in fact, if you temp overt players grouped with declared overt players, you can REALLY eliminate the ambush problem.
Rubicon49BC wrote:
Don't make them overt, not even temporary. It only leads to new ambush tactics. Give people a TEF for grouping with an overt, otherwise you're just shifting the problem around.
Ok, 2 scenario's.
I am a covert Imperial and I go stand next to a PC rebel base. I watch people going by and at a certain point an unbuffed overt rebel comes by. I shoot a rebel NPC, turn overt and then wallop the Rebel PC. Ambush nr 1.
I am a covert imperial with 19 covert imperial friends. We go into a group and 19 of us shuttle to a rebel town. Once we are in position, everybody geared up for combat, buddy Nr 20 who stayed behind goes overt with a recruiter. BAM, we are overt too and rip into our enemies. Ambush Nr 2. We can even fight forever as long as buddy nr 20 is overt, since even when we die, we clone overt since we are grouped with an overt.
One more thing, about the ambush. I'm not sure if everybody plays this way, but when I am overt and land anywhere where there are blue dots around, I will quickly turn 360 degrees while hitting the tab key to see if there are any TEFs there. Call me paranoid
Message Edited by Rubicon49BC on 06-23-2004 11:06 AM
Scenario #1 happens anyway, basically, I attack an NPC at a faction base, I can get shot anyway, so there's only the split second advantage to offering overt status instead. More to the point, you still have to tab over after attacking the NPC, and unless you're on a top of the line machine with a b*tchin' broadband connection, its going to take a second or more to switch targets in which you are vulnerable.
Scenario #2 is mitigatable by putting a range limit on the overt effect. Similar to the way Squad Leader bonuses are limited by the players in the group remaining within sight of the SL on the group list. Basically, you are overt and unflagged when grouped, but when you leave the range of the overt, you return to covert status unless you've done something to earn a flag, in which case you'd be attackable anyway.
The idea isn't to eliminate ambush possibilities, they are an important part of any wargame, the idea is to kill griefing tools, and overt status instead of TEF status can accomplish this.
BTW, when in my guild's city or at a major starport, you can bet your ass I'm checking for blue dotTEFs, too.
No, scenario 1 does not appear now anyway. Only if that rebel chooses to attack you, would you be able to gank him. If the rebel is smart, he will size you up, maybe look for a few friends.
For the second scenario, it would improve if there was a range check, but still TEF would be better. As a previous poster explained, you still have the option of avoiding attacking the other guy and running. If they turn overt all around you because 1 person does, you're FUBAR.
Ambushes are fair if there is a way to spot them. But if people can at will change their covert to overt status, that is not a fair ambush.
Why?
Overt = PVP enabled.
Covert = PVP disabled.
Positive effect on the game:
No more gank wars.
No worry about, is this going to get me killed?
People who want to pvp, can.
People will be able to enter their own house, at virtually any time.
Negative effect on the game:
No consequence for helping either side in the war.
Possible exploits with entering buildings while in combat.
How do we recreate a consequence for healing/trading/buffing/etc with an overt?
Visibility.
The new smuggler system is going to introduce true player bounties.
Allow the removal of TEF to enhance the BH profession. If you trade with an overt, you get 10 points of visibility. If you heal an overt, that is in combat, you are automatically on the terminals. Nifty eh? Of course there are many other instances where TEF would have happened, let's change those and make them cause visibility. Of course this is an incomplete thought.
The only thing that hasn't been done to "fix" jedi is to show their visiblity. Make everyone's visibility viewable like a Faction point rating. If it were up to me it would be added to the main ctrl+c tab, right under rebel faction.
That is what I think about TEF, remove, replace and have fun.
Rubicon49BC wrote:
No, scenario 1 does not appear now anyway. Only if that rebel chooses to attack you, would you be able to gank him. If the rebel is smart, he will size you up, maybe look for a few friends.
For the second scenario, it would improve if there was a range check, but still TEF would be better. As a previous poster explained, you still have the option of avoiding attacking the other guy and running. If they turn overt all around you because 1 person does, you're FUBAR.
Ambushes are fair if there is a way to spot them. But if people can at will change their covert to overt status, that is not a fair ambush.
Ah, but there's the rub, in Scenario 1, in order to be attacked the defender MUST be overt, he has therefore stated his intentions to participate in PvP, so he acknowledges the risks involved.
In answer to your Scenario 2 issue, if they're grouped and covert, they are going to gank you the moment you respond to the initial attack from the overt using the GTEF. By forcing them overt, you can get a MUCH better handle on approach to the real strength of your opposition.
Also, the sudden mass overtness does happen now. When a raiding group transits in via shuttle, they have nearly a minute to get prepositioned for an attack before their overt status kicks in. Most raids occur well within range of a shuttleport, so this is a known issue that not many people have made an issue about.
On the opposite side of the coin, I've had dozens of 'ohnosecond' moments where I've transited in to a city and suddenly half the world goes red when the timer drops.
Yogol wrote:
Another possible solution for the PvP problems :
1. Drop the entire TEF flag.
2. Everyonecan PvP inside a battlefield.
3. Make more battlefields.
4. Overts can PvP outside a battlefield.
5. You can go overt without a coordinator.
6. You cannot attack another player the first minute you're Overt.
- you need rule 3 to make rule 2 work, else neutrals can't PvP enough.
- you need rule 5 to make rule 4 work, else there will be alot of camping.
- you need rule 6 to get rid of the "I-got-the-first-strike-you're-death" problem.
- you need rule 1 to make the first 100 posters in this thread happy.
Thunderheart wrote:
One of the ongoing community discussions is the GCW, PvP and the issue of TEF's. TEF's exist because we have a mix of playstyles with a PvP switch. Overts are PvP all the time and Covert's are PvP sometimes. Because of this situation, there are a list of actions that happen in the game that cause a player to get a "Temporary Enemy Flag" that makes them Overt for a short period of time or prevents them from trading to an enemy, etc.
To kick things off, lets create a "players handbook" listfor GCW TEF's that catalogue's all of the possible TEF's and use it as a point of discussion so we can identify which items promote exciting Overt / Covert combat situations and which are problematic.
Message Edited by Duexfuse on 06-23-2004 02:10 PM