Development Cycle Archive
Thread: Publish 7 Feedback: Crafting System Enhancements
Zutan wrote:
Im hoping you guys will chose to leave the "new" changes to experimentation/resource in effect for at least a few days. I suspect most of the complaining was from people that had not really tested it and/or where not realizing the point of the change. The new system does seem to create more of a benefit for masters vs non-masters and even masters with extra experiment points vs standard masters.
Let us see how it works for a bit, if it truly is worse, or heads towards messing things in the economy then do the hotfix.
And thus you miss both the point of the Devs and the point of those of us who said this change will wreck the economy and lead to a crafting monopoly.
The Devs goal for the crafting nerf (paraphrased for brevity).
1) Help fix the economy (I assume by reducing inflation)
2) Allow new crafters and easier time entering the market successfully
3) Provide for a little more variety in crafting
What actually is happening:
Only crafters with +2 to experimentation (which would be the wealthiest and most established crafters) are able to experiment items to the levelsthat previously only required master to achieve (max a single line and put 2points in a secondary stat)and only masters can max a single line if lucky where previously anyone with techniques 4 could do the same. In some cases masters with +2 exp actually make better items.
A) This directly reduces variety as usually one stat far outweighs the other possible lines of experimentation so #3 is not achieved.
Since the faucets providing rampant credits to individuals (especially combat players) have not changed, money is still flowing into the system faster than it flows out. This means that evenif +2 master craftsmen raise prices on their items, the combat players can pay those prices by running a few extra missions.
B) Thus, this change actually increases inflation in the economy forcing all players to run even faster on the mission hampster wheel to keep up. The economywill get worse until the schematics all the master +2 craftsmen made today work their way out of the economy. Thus the change works against goal #1.
Combine the increased inflation with the fact that resource quality has an even greater impact on crafted items now (so older craftsmen that have gathered supplies since the servers went live) and you get:
C) Anyone trying to enter craftinghas an even larger barrier to overcome. They can'tsell sub-par products because anyone buying anything crafted can simply run a few more missions and easily afford the item they desire, regardless of cost - only"the best" items are ever sold. The only way to enter the market is grind your way to master, run enough missions on your own to pay the 1 -2 million per point for + exp gear (+2 expermentation requires +20 skill, so 20-40 million credits), and then wait for months collecting the "best" new resource spawns to even approach the quality of an established master. Thus the change works against goal #3.
So to recap, the three goals the Devs wanted to achieve with the crafting nerf are not achieved. In fact, most of the goals are further away due to this change. The point of the change isn't so people with +2 to experimentation can make a better gun, armor, crafting station, stimpack, food, etc. The point of the change is to help newbies establish themselves and fix the economy. That won't happen with this change. The opposite will.
Also, since I'm surea few+2 masters have spent most of the day making new schematics, if the change isn't taken out by tommorrow and all the schematics made using it wiped, I doubt any crafter with less that +1 or +2 to experimentation will be selling much of anything until these nerfed items leave the economy. If it takes more than 3 months and I still can't recover my character from this ill-advised change I will have no choice but to not renew my account as I will have nothing to do in the game crafting wise and should be able to visit all of the static content with my alt by then.
I have to honestly say that I will be very happy when these changes hit the road in the hotfix (minus the crit fail assembly reduction during skill progression). I have a master weaponsmith,a master chef, a master bio-engineer, and was very disappointed with this system. I was unable to max out any experimentation line and hope to have points to spare anywhere else. I could not duplicate the power of a single food or drink item I had made prior to this system, and I am using 900's+ average materials, literally. The only difference I saw was using 991 SR steel and 994 SR polymer got me 100% experimenting maxcompared to 99% before. A whopping +1 to min and max damage. I still had 0 extra points after that to use on any other line. I will happily say goodbye to these changes in exchange for salvaging every other item I make and sell on a regular basis. I also do not find it fair or appropriate for one experimentation point to give me an 11 increase in nutrition, the next point to only give me 7, then 11 again, then 7, all great successes. How is that right? I thought each and every point was supposed to give the exact same amount based on the max experimentation? Sure isn't working that way. I am never looking at this thread again. Good rithens, and I will kiss my monitor when I get mynice pre-publish experimentation back in the morning.
Sullano wrote:
ugh, the more I think about how this is going to be removed, the angrier I get. This ABSOLUTELY SUCKS!!!!!!
Now we all have to go back to a f'd up system where we crit fail more often when we experiment and where the quality of the materials has a very low impact. Why are those who take the time to actually do their craft and RP as a solid Artisan class get punished? This would be the equivalent of giving that kid in "A Christmas Story" his little Red Ranger BB Gun, letting him open and play with it for 15 minutes and then promptly taking it away and saying, "wow, wasn't that fun?".
TH, this really sucks that you all caved in to an albeit very vocal minority. This sets a horrible prescedent. Now we're back to all crafters = the same. GG SOE.
The crit fail fix is staying in the game. You should try reading the Dev tracker (R5's post) before complaining about things that aren't at issue.
Ive crafted a lot of stuff with the new changes and got much better results on a couple things what will happen to those? Will they remain in play making a few amazing guns worth 100ks which i think sucks or will they be destroyed which also isnt fair as it means ive wasted a lot of resources.
Or will the Devs have done it so they change stats to what they would be with normal exp which i think isnt likely as this will be hard to determine due to the fact i would have to make different choices with how i use my exp points.
I am a 10 point master weaponsmith, and have been so for probably 4 months. I have good stocks of 95% of all the top resources that have spawned since I started playing. In other words, I look pretty much like all the other smiths have had 3 or more months to assemble resources.
As it stands today, any sensible 12 pt master weaponsmith has stacks of 1000 use schematics for those few subcomponents that were actually helped by the crafting changes. As a weaponsmith, these include APBHs, sword and reinforcement cores.
The status on these subcomps are greater than anything I can now achieve, using the same materials, _even_ if I now go and reward the AFK tape looters w/ my hard earned credits. Under the current system, 'pre-post-nerf' single-line subcomps + 'post nerf' crafting rules == weapons that will _always_ be better, regardless of the number of skill tapes I have.
There is now an insurmountable division betweeen the non-ehanced weapons made by 12pt masters who were active yesterday, and everyone else - and there will be till those schematics get used up. 500k+ in best-of-breed resources (a safe assumption for a 12pt smiths) means this isn't going to cycle out of the game anytime soon.
So, what exactly are my options here?
Ok... after reading the forums for quite some time last night, and toying around with the new crafting system for a bit (and getting rather frustrated), I finally logged in late in the evening and started REALLY testing out this new system...
So now I'll post my new comments. 
PROS ON THE NEW SYSTEM
- Even though the resource quality affects to MAXIMUM the item can be experimented to... if you get an AMAZING SUCCESS during experimentation, this actually allows you go to OVER the maximum by a small margin. In many cases, this margin was enough to push schematics into never-before-seen realms. (i.e. Craft stations with 45.0 ratings, and BER 14 harvestors)
- It's easier (when you learn and understand it) to figure out how many dots each experiment point is going to affect.
- This new system seems to add quite a big advantage for people with +2 experimentation points, which is good since those are really hard to get in many cases.
- If you are using resources with LOW qualities, you have to use up all of your points to max out an attribute. What I mean is... when you get to the experimentation screen, let's say you have 10 points to use. And the item you want to experiment on only shows 2 spaces for points to be added. Well, if you add 2 points, it raises that stat a little. Then you can put 2 more points into it... and 2 more... and so on, until all 10 points are used up. I don't see a HUGE problem with this, though. If you are using low quality resources, then you probably don't care about the quality of the end product, anyway.
- For crafting items that have multiple stats that can be experimented on, you don't get as much variety as you did with the old system. With the old system, you may have been able to max one stat with only 6 points, and have 4 more to spend on another stat. With the new system, you usually use up all 10 on the first stat.
- Critical failures, and "good success"es seem to be more common on EXPERIMENTATION. I didn't notice any difference on theASSEMBLY process. This may not be related to the craft system change, but since I noticed it during my experimentation, I figured I should write it here. My failures on droid components were horrid. About 22% failure rate on experimentation, using 14.97 tools and 43.48 craft stations.
- This system was implemented live. I'm listing this as a CON simply because this is going to cause so much upset. If you put the system back in, people will complain because you said you would be taking it out. If you take the system out and keep it out, then people will complain that they liked it while it was here. You'll also see people complain that it's not fair because they missed their chance to make BER 14 harvestors and 45.0 craft stations (among other things I'm sure, like 100% repair tools).
That about sums it up.
All in all... after spending several hours of honest TESTING... I kinda like this new system. It grew on me. It would take a bit to get used to it, but I like the idea that a master has a CHANCE to make a product that exceeds what most people consider "The best". The BER 14 harvestors, for example, are EXTREMELY difficult to accomplish, and require the consumption of a lot of resourcesin order to get the proper schematic. But... the truly dedicated master (in my opinion) would be willing to sacrifice those resources to make that extra-high quality harvestor.
That's my input. I think I've said all I need to on this topic. I'm curious to see how you guys (devs) handle it from here. I still hope a poll goes out in game to let ALL the players decide if they want this new system to go live and remain there.
I did as much crafting as I could last night between work and sleep....
THINGS I LIKED:
* Being able to reach 100% in some experiments with sub-1000 materials.
* Seemed like fewer crit. fails. (caveats below)
PROBLEMS I ENCOUNTERED:
* With medium-quality materials, it was much much harder to achieve medium-level results. That is, with 50% materials it was fairly easy to get 50% quality under the old/restored system, but was even harder with thetemporary system than it was to achieve 90% quality with 90% materials. I suppose it makes sense that one has to work just as hard to optimize junk as to optimize good quality materials, but for game purposes all it does is add a greater dividing line between established rich crafters and anyone who's trying to get there.
* Micro-Sensor Suites. These are a Master Artisan item that use conductivity and overal quality in their final rating, and require Steel in their materials. This hasn't changed, but... Before, I could get the sub-components to 95% or better, and experiment the Micro-Sensor Suite (MSS) up to 85%, capped because of the Steel. Last night, I got sub-components up to 100% (took a while, but I did it), and pulled out all my best possible materials for making the final MSS. I couldn't get better than 78%, even though all of the sub-components and materials were as good or better.
* Crit fails still occurred in clusters, 3-in-a-row and such. Though there may have been fewer of them, the cluster of fails points to a system that keeps count of our successes and forces failures when we don't get enough of them naturally. I don't even know why it matters whether there are any crit fails or not. Either the loss of materials is so trivial that we just move on and make the same thing again, or the loss of components is so devastating that we hate the game for it. And since architects no longer have to worry about crit fails (noreal effect to them, after all), it seems like it's all just a concept that's very important to somebody in the development department for no particular reason... Don't force failures to meet some quota, just ensure that failures are possible and let the random number generators take care of it.
You guys (The Devs) have really botched it this time, regarding the crafting change(s). Going ahead and putting it in Live, knowing full well it was going to be taken out the following day was foolish. Stating something to the effect that "it was already coded....so it "had" to go in with the patch" is nothing more than an excuse. And also adding the bit about "giving people a chance to test it..." was nothing more than just a way to "candy coat" that excuse with an additional one.
You had planned a hotfix to remove it, the nextday,and that was stated too. What was not stated, however, was that in even one days' time, people would be able to craft loads of schematics, that will undoubtedly last a good long time, especially with how people have been stockpiling resources in preperation for this change, which you should have known well, too. The result will now be an economy that will graduallyget even more screwed than it already is, then stay that way for a considerable time ( several months, at least), before it finally starts to rebound back again from the negative effects of all this. Instead of helping the way the economy is, this should now serve only to foul it up for quite a while.
If you knew you were going to be removing these changes, then you should have known better than to let it continue to go Live, even just for 1 day. Yes, it was already coded. That's understandable. So is the fact you needed a hotfix to correct or remove it.What is not, is the fact that you did not take into account the problem of leftover schematics, and the effect they will have. It should have been obvoius to see this is how and what would happen. Just as the solution should have been equally obvious....HOLD the patch, untill the hotfix was ready too, then put them both in while the servers were down for the planned patching(publish). That way, the patch could have been first put on, then then hot fix. After that, the servers go up again, and the changes (and theirlong term effects) NEVER NEED TO HAVEHAPPENED.
The "test" excuse was just that. An excuse. ThereIS a Test server.THAT"S WHATIT IS FOR. If you cannot currently get enough people there to test and get more accurate results/predictions, then TEST some CHANGES there as for how to get more people to help with it. There have been numerous suggestionsabout this. TRY THEM. It's a TEST server, with it's ploicies stated in advance, I might add. Testing on the Live servers, like this has nowhappened,will be something we will all be stuck paying for, for quite some time to come.
As far as the actual crafting changes themselves go, I am glad to see they will be going. I saw little thatwould serve to "fix" anything, instead only make things worse. Most of it has already been pretty well stated here by everyone else. It does not looklike all professions (ones that craft and expiriment) were taken into account for how this would affect EACH one. Instead looks like they all were considered to be/work the same way, when they are and do not. As far as economy, and also the division between Master/Elites and New people, it looked to do nothing more thanmake even worse the division that ALREADY exists.Even more-so when it comes to the Skill-tape aspect, which them in themselves have little to do with "skill". Unless camping and AFK-looting is now considered as such, that is. Sorry if this "upsets" some people, but these's no crafting"skill" in owning these tapes, not within the current system, anyways. If you, the Devs want to change something, then start by making some real ones, like how things like this work, and how they are obtained,instead of just taking the easy route and doing the same old thing each time, which in turn, only leads to the same things happening....
I love the way the crafting system here (as compared to some other games)is, for the most part. It does need some work though in regards to making it more variable. The changes only looked to provide that for 2 or mor expirimental-line items, If someone could anddecided to bother.By now, it also need to start having more content (new items) added, across the board. It's nice that there's been some added, but mostly it's all been things for the 2nd leveltiers. For them, it's good.For those new and/or in the 1st levels, there's little change. The changes and additions need to be happening there, too.
Loriena wrote:
There must be a rollback or a wipe of all schematics and items build on this test day. Or you would have more players affected by this unfairness leaving.
Let them leave. Everyone had a fair chance to craft whatever they wanted.
I bet we've all heard the saying, "If you snooze you lose."