Development Cycle Archive
Thread: IC 1-12: Combat Roles; Rifleman
My word, there area lot of good suggestions in this thread! And we Riflemen and women sure like to type a great deal. Must reflect on the propensity for patience and forethought. Now, to inject much of what is ultimately redundant, considering my fellow snipers and their already well-written ideas. In other words, yay us!
What defines theRiflemanrole in combat? Distance and precision.
What basic combat elements should they possess? Distance, precision and concealment.
What offensive abilities? I'm not too critical of what we have now, but I do agree with other posters. The ability to Suppress a target, or group of targets, more effectively. I would recommend an increased ability to force targets into lowerstances, balanced with less damage when employing this Advanced Suppression technique. Further, Master Riflemen should be able to target HAM bars individually. Increaase the time delay on this, if you wish (and I can already hear the BH's crying foul) but a sniper is trained to hit the most tactically advantageous target. They are not relegated to head shots. Allow fora skill like this, perhaps called Surgical Shot or somesuch.
What defensive abilities? Obviously, Block is buggy, but I expect this will be addressed ASAP as it affects multiple professions. Otherwise, it's: Concealment, concealment, concealment. As mentioned before, a so-called sniper usually sets up in a location that conceals their position. In an auto-attack, TAB-targetting PvP system, the primary advantage of this tactic is lost. Nullify Tab-targetting and auto-attack by the target until (a) Time has passed, (b) The target closes, probably by chance, within a certain range, or (c) the player manually selects the shooter with a mouse click. Perhaps bundle this in with graduated skills of increasing 'hidden' durations or make it a Master skill only. However you choose, I am all for some sort of Expert Concealment. Others suggest you do not disable Tab-targetting as, without auto-attack, this would require the target to be facing the right direction, thus giving them a 'fighting chance.'
What unique abilities? Aside from the above: Range. You are now in the process of proving that combat range can (in terms of game mechanics) be increased beyond 64m. Turrets firing at a range of 80m? Then why not Riflemen? And, of course, you can graduate it as seen fit.
Should add what advantage or asset in group combat? I think the above skills add enough assets in group combat. Used foolishly, a Rifleman should be easy game. Used wisely, a Rifleman should be a difficult adversary.
How could/should they interact with other professions? Tactical positioning should be the watchword during combat. Communication, knowledge of team capabilites, cooperation, communication and wisdom in selecting tactics. "Do I help Taq? Or do I help Jorn'nz?" "Which enemy requires the greatest suppression?" Outside of combat: I believe things are fairly good as they stand. Weaponsmiths, Doctors and 'tank'-professions are close allies of the Rifleman.
What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants? Covered above. Primarily, dependency on the close-combat professions to hold the enemy at a distance.
What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War? In combat, aside from the above, Riflemen could now be considered the nemeses of the turret. Both should have equal max ranges, although the Rifleman can Sneak into range and get the first few shots.
ADDITIONAL COMMENT: What drawback or weaknesses? They're fairly good as is, but I would alsokeep Friendly Fire. Now, wait my friends, I only mean in terms of AoE fire. If you spray an area to suppress it, and your guys are in that area, you still suffer a chance to hit them, too. Seems only logical to me. Further, Riflemen should be vulnerable to other Riflemen. The Counter-Sniping branch and Flushing-style Shots are a good start, but if possible, I would suggest that Riflemen are skilled at hitting even concealed targets, thus degrading the advantage of cover in combat.
Other than that, I'm quite happy with the Rifleman Profession, barring broken or buggy abilities. So long as the planned fixes consider and attempt to recreate the sniper's advantages of Distance, Precision and Concealment, I'm sure things'll work out just fine.
Of course, the idea of an Elite-Elite profession called Special-Ops Sniper still sounds most, most appealing. But then again, that's just me.
Niix Starkyller [Intrepid Resident, Dead Eye and General Nuisance]
BadDawGe wrote:
I got down to Waste93's post (the one in green on the first page). I would just like to let Waste93 know that the definition of a rifle in this game is much different than one in RL. A rifle in real life might represent the M82A1A Anti-vehicle sniper rifle. The weapon that the basic infantry of the U.S. military uses is the m16A1 Carbine. The carbineer should be the one used to provide suppressive fire. The rifleman, used in the rear lines or in buildings to shoot at specific threats and allow for a more effective means of quick enemy elimination. The carbineers (in-game) would work as basic infantry providing suppressive fire (inaccurate yet concentrated fire to drive the enemy down into hiding to allow for troops to move safely), while the snipers would act in counter-sniper missions and more or less scouting (therefore a rifleman/ranger would be a suitable profession for todays definition of a real sniper).
Your post, otherwise, was very nice
Just wanted to correct a common misconception that you mentioned. The standard rifle of the US military is the M16A2 assault rifle. It is not a carbine. Some units are getting and usingthe M4 carbine. Which is basicaly an M16 with a shorter barrel and a collapsable stock. This is the one I believe you were refering to.
I see Carbineers not as the typical "grunt" soldier but as assault troops. The basic carbine would be like an SMG (sub-machine gun). If you are familar with WWII history they are like the Soviet Guard units. They are equipped with a short range full auto (PPSh 41) and used to assault in urban and close quarter battles. They are like SWAT teams in effect. They are specialized troops but not regular troops.
One other thing. Some of these posts have mentioned snipers and such in movies. Please don't use these are references. They are Hollywood made to entertain and often have little to do with realism. Documentaries are ok but if we are going based on movies thenpeople can dodge bullets, (Matrix), jump from tree to tree (Crouching Tiger), etc. They may used realistic weapons in the movies but they often have unrealistic abilities (how often do you seem them reload in movies?).
Waste, is'nt the only real difference between a carbine and rifle in real life barrel length?
I'm not too sure thats why I ask.
PyscoJuggalo wrote:
Waste, is'nt the only real difference between a carbine and rifle in real life barrel length?
I'm not too sure thats why I ask.
Usually it's the barrel length and the stock length. They are generally lighter than a full rifle. The carbine came around as a cavalry weapon. Hence the shorter length as this was more advantageous for the mounted warrior. Especially in the early firearms days when firearms were rather lengthy, heavy, and difficult to reload. If you look at even a Civil War era rifle you will know exactly what I mean.
Nowadays the carbine is used where space is a limiting factor, much like it originally was. Good examples of this are aircraft cockpits, armored vehicles, and special forces. For the first two the carbine is just an emergency weapon if they have to abandon the vehicle. For special forces the varsatility of the lighter weight weapon and shorter combat ranges make it effective. Same reason SWAT teams use them. More firepower per person than a pistol will give, yet lighter weight and more manuaverable than a full sized rifle. Basicaly the carbine is a compromise between the Rifle and Pistol.
Webster :Carbine 1 : a short-barreled lightweight firearm orig. used by cavalry
2: a light short-barreled repeating rifle that is used as a supplementary military arm or for hunting in dense brush.
PyscoJuggalo wrote:
It's completely stupid to see a CM throw an Area poison that only affects imperials or rebs.
What defines theRiflemanrole in combat?
i see the rifleman as a duel purpose prof. sniping single targets from hidden possitions and gunning in support of group combat. if a single target happens into the area of a set sniper during pvp the target dies, however if the target has a friend to attack the sniper after his location is given away the sniper dies. the sniping role could also begiven higher range to set and kill a target prior to a larger battle. once the battle has begun the rifleman/woman starts gunning in support of his/her group with short range specialist blocking the rushing targets.
What basic combat elements should they possess?
range, accuracy, high damage
What offensive abilities?
sniping abilitiy to hit a target from range and doing high damage while being hidden from targets view.
gunning ability to hit a group of targets doing damage in support of a group but not being hidden from target view.
What defensive abilities?
very high ranged defense.
What unique abilities?
ability to hide from targets.
Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?
shooting groups from range using aoe attacks basically as is.
sniping high level targets prior to group attack.
How could/should they interact with other professions?
as it is now weaponsmiths, armoursmiths,chefs,docs, ect..
What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?
in sniping roles no dependencies should exist as they would nullify the ability to hide from target.
in gunning roles any close support specialist could be used to block rushing targets.
What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?
AOEs work the way they do to avoid griefing. How would you like having a so called spy in your ranks that just happens to fire AOE near you all the time? This is not a rifleman-specific issue.
We should have weapons and attributes that live up to the titles we can earn:
Snipers should have high damage/high accuracy/low speed, gunners should have avg damage/low accuracy/high speed, and soldiers should have avg damage/avg accuracy/avg speed. Now the comparisons I gave would be with respect to the rifleman profession, not the ranged profession. So a rifleman using a gunner's rifle may be the least accurate rifleman, but may be still more accurate than the least accurate pistoleer.
Game space?...it depends on our title. If we're snipers or gunners...outdoors. Soldiers both.
Leveling this profession is stressful. Since most MOBs are (mostly) melee critters, when they close in use we can't hit them. I'm also a novice pistoleer and white con critter means nothing to me when using a pistol...but a white con critter when I have my rifle means after fighting just one, I've taken on significant damage. NPCs are usually good, but they don't spawn out of lairs like MOBs do (less xp per missions) AND they always have some knife wielding blue con guy that will kill me if he stays too close.
PsychoticChipmunk wrote:
Well thats the thing though, 2.5x isn't too much since you can swap weapons and finish the job. It just means that if someone sneaks up on you (or warps like **edit** near everything was doing) you're dead before you can react. I leveled up during all the riflemen nerfs, in fact I hit novice the day of the T-21 nerf so I was unable to get one of those. It may make it a bit harder to use but all you need are tactics, a pistol, and concealshot. As for PvP, well thats what we had before so anything less would be considered cheap I'm sure.
Point taken.. I am still leveling. I can't be sure but I started the game as a marksman with the intent to go rifleman at the start. I jumped in in the middle of all this. I wasnt able to Experience Rifleman before the T21 nerf and other things. I just know it was and is a tough grind. Which i think it should be. I don't like that it was made easier. I kind of take pride in the fact that its tough. Even though i am a casual player, I want to feel like i have accomplished something difficult.
Fellow Riflemen/Riflewomen, kindly ignore Xytroncore.
Let the constructive posts come in. This is my 2 cents.
What defines theRiflemanrole in combat?Rifleman should be able to act as a sniper as well as a frontline soldier. A good way to balance this is to have assorted rifles for specific purposes.
What basic combat elements should they possess? Speed, Accuracy, Distance, Stealth
What offensive abilities? The current abilities works well but like what others have said, we should be able to suppress angry mobs at a distance with our rifles.
What defensive abilities? Ranged defenses. Block never seemed to work.
What unique abilities? Concealment and camoflauge
Should add what advantage or asset in group combat? No comments
How could/should they interact with other professions? No comments
What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants? No comments
What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War? Assassins? As a hired gun for specific snipingmissions (Haha, just a figment of my imagination)
And please fix the title for concealment 4, it is weird to share a title with a scout that has achieved hunting 4.
badgic's post said pretty much what I would think a rifleman would be. I just was going to add a few thoughts to that.
Gunner and the Snipper should have rifle's that reflect these skills. The current T21 does not cut it, yes it does have its purpose but all in all it's not what it should be.
Gunner
A rifle that reflects more of the PvP or large group support of the (Gunner/Rifleman). This should be played more like range support mini turret. Whereit would be easy to see on the battlefield but just out put heavy fire from a distance to soften targets.