Dancer Archive
Thread: Reactions from the other correspondents?
Panthu wrote:
Smuggler_Caylin wrote:
I'll pop back in and affirm that I never saw this proposed by any correspondent.
The devs came out of the blue to ask about removing recursive macros, no correspondent I know was asking for this.
How about hooking me up with some good spice Cay? I'm a little on edge. /le freak out
One of the Four Horsemen of the Smuggler Apocalypse! 
garvin wrote:
From what I've seen, this is basically what happened:
- Constant complaints came in about AFK Entertainers and BuffBots from all over the forums...
- The Devs fired back in response to these complaints with what they felt was the quickest way to kill the majority of AFK Entertainers and Buffbots in one quick swoop...
Wow I feel very special if they plan on doing that JUST because and ONLY because Ents complained some... of course we have been trying to find different ways to deal with AFK and bots forever.
To bad they aren't doing it to try and curb all Un-attended gameplay. Like AFK spawn/looting and the lag and spam in places like Cor... or many many other reasons... like JtL coming out and how no one wants to play a MMORPG where you don't need the MM part...
My take on why they are doing this. Is because JtL is coming. They want new players to come and STAY. And they want old players to join back up. They quick easy fix for them to limit all forms of un-attended gameplay across the board is to remove Looping macros. That being said I do think they are trying to address the reasons people automate parts of the game.(Crafting Quests) and that I hope is why they started the thread on the in dev forum to get ideas on which parts and where they need to quickly add something in to help once the loop is gone.
Message Edited by DarkY0da on 08-04-2004 11:43 AM
DarkY0da wrote:
Wow I feel very special if they plan on doing that JUST because and ONLY because Ents complained some... of course we have been trying to find different ways to deal with AFK and bots forever.
It's not just Ents complaining...it was a lot more then that as far as I understand...there were complaints from many different groups...even complaints about people annoyed with tumblers...the devs just want to end Looping because appear to feal it will cease a lot of issues all at once....That's why they are asking us now to weigh the Pros & Cons of the issue...Do the negatives associated with this type of change outweigh what the Devs see as the positives?
That's why I don't think any hostility over this proposal of the removal of recursive macros should be aimed at entertainer professions...The Devs just want to keep the game as social as possible rather then an AFK playground...Some people don't mind AFK macro players, some do...there is no way to please everyone so they are trying to get feedback on one possible path to take...
Any and all anger should be directed solely at the people who were exploiting the macros to such an extreme that the Developers felt they had to take action.In high school the star football player raped a girl. She got him (eventually) sent to jail. For the next year and a half that she was in school she was subjected to extreme amounts of mental and even physical abuse from many of the team and many of the students, who felt the loss of the player hurt the whole school. The backlash on these forums reminds me of that situation.
It is the change to a game system that ALL classes have access to.
Besides /ui action, the game system you speak of is hurting the game...Everything from spam star ports, to AFK meat lump killing, to exploiting certain areas and using /ui cycle target to gain exp...Its all hurting the over-all game...Frankly *no* class should have any ability that allows them to bypass playing the game...Whether it be entertainer or bounty hunter....
have never been one to bad mouth entertainers...it's your class, play it how you will
Actually, I am a bounty hunter on my main, an armosmith on my alt...And I have a maxed out Jedi ....Its not my class, I just choose to look at the game from an over-all stand point, rather thentheselfish combat>all stand point that my "combat counter-parts" seem to be in...
With the exception of a few broken flourishes and animations....the classes (Entertainer, Dancer and Musician)work. NOTHING game breaking here... Nothing that is NON-FUNCTIONAL similar to the problems with the other classes that have since been retooled and now function beautifully.
Wrong...Since you wont look at it from an enterainers perspective, let me show you from an Armor smith perspective...
(please read this section before you respond...It should show you how your being unfair towards entertainers becuase *you* do not understand the class, or have no intrest in it)
What if there was a way to AFK armor-smith....From collecting resources too making the armor...It all could be AFK'd....That armor smith who AFKd all daywould be able to churn out huge amounts of armor at a much cheaper price then any ATK smith could.
In the end, that armor smtih would have a huge advanatge over any "playing" armor smith....IE everyone is forced to do this, or they can not compete...In the end, Armor smtihs saturate the market sooo much, that armor is simply not worth buying anymore...Its litterally not worth paying for.
The armorsmith class would then turn into a "bot" class, its only function being to remain active on a second account to produce armor. The class loses *all* playable functionality and there for is completely broken....
So, on this point, you are wrong....Entertainers are broken...Their product is being saturated and diminshed by AFK, as well as their game play...In many respects they are broken far worse then any of those classes were...
You have succeeded in causing game effecting changes....that will harm the gameplay of a much larger player base than the combined entertainer population
Name me one game breaking issue this will cause....And I will give you one of my macros that has already be re-written for a combat or crafter to work around this...
Go on, try....I want you too, really ..I will start with one of the main "gripes"...
CoB....Wite the CoB 10 times, and then have a /tell at the last time saying "Hit the button again"....
and your correspondants are responsible for letting such an irresponsible change be ENCOURAGED....
Again, not *my* correspondent...I am a combat toon who can actually see beyond my own desire...I know this change, if done correctly, is healthy for the game....
It was irresponsible to put *any* system in place that allowed for unattended play...This mistake was made in beta, and should have been fixed....No other successful game allowed this..History has shown any game that does, has failed...
Message Edited by Taewyn on 08-04-2004 02:39 AM
AO
Taewyn wrote:Taewin, an armorsmith doesn't have to stand in front of you every time you put on and take off your armor...or just to use it at all.You missed the point of the post...If armor smith could be AFK macroed...Just imagine if it could...Would somone in you guild get a second account to do it? Yes, of course...I know many people in my guild had second accounts for buff bots/docs....Now...If all those AFK smiths started making armor at an amazing pace and it cost them nothing but the AFK time they put in...What would happen to the products that armor smiths produce...They would plumet in demand and price...Now, you may ask youself how that relates to dancer....Dancers provide two very needed services...Buffing mind and healing battle fatigue....Both these services are required in PvP (buffing more so), much like armor is pretty much required.However, for the entertainers, there is competition to sell these services from people who are not even at the key-board...In fact, the market has become so saturated with people selling said services that most people rarely feel the need to even pay for them anymore...That is where the anaology comes in...It was not about the aplication or functinality of the armor itself..But of the impact AFKing can have on a class...
Message Edited by Taewyn on 08-04-2004 02:34 AM
I got your point the first time.
You miss mine.
The point is, you have to find a LIVE BODY in order to perform these functions.
Those LIVE BODIES are not always available.
That has an adverse affect on EVERY OTHER CLASS that depends on them.
There would not have been a rise in AFK entertainers and buff-bots if there was not a need for them.
This is a design flaw that was compensated for by these looping macros.
If you ignore this very specific fact about the application of functionality of the services entertainers provide, that you must be in the presence of another player to recieve benefit, then any analogy you make is inherently flawed.
Yes, I can imagine if another profession was able to be macroed, it's not a strech - pretty elementary concept. But can you imagine another profession that had to be standing in front of you to use their product? If as a DE I had to call/store your droid for you every time you wanted to use it? There are many complexities to this, and people like yourself are over-simplifiying what is a very complex issue that goes to the core of the design of this game.
AO
Taewyn wrote:
This effects dancer fucitonality as well asover-all game fuctionality in a large way....With the ability to AFK most everything in game, many classes have their natural functionality lowered.
How does some idiot killing meatlumps outside Tyrena affect my TKA while i'm killing Nightsisters? That afk looter doesn't affect me in anyway...I am NOT FORCED into reliance on that character or his skill set, as I am with entertainers.
Also, Armorsmith worked fine before this change...Chef was mediocore, but again, it worked....
Sure...if you call foods that killed your customers 'working'
Melee worked wonderfully, for those who knew how to play it...These changes were made *before* most people had armor, so therefor the devs made a change before the players were using the itemswithin game at their full potential...There for, except for the range increase, these changes had *nothing* to do with over-all fuctionality of the melee classes...
Melee didn't get its boosts untill the CH nerf...over all...it wasn't the most effective since CH pets were made obsolete thru nerfing, and bonuses such as COB....
It is the change to a game system that ALL classes have access to.
Besides /ui action, the game system you speak of is hurting the game...
Everything from spam star ports,
Lags a little...but I can ignore them
to AFK meat lump killing,
Explained above...no effect on MY gameplay
to exploiting certain areas and using /ui cycle target to gain exp...
Any thing you can kill afk on a looping macro wont pay enough exp to make a difference. meatlumps pay 130 exp last i checked. i can out grind an afk leveller in 3 hrs a night, vs 23 afk hours a day... (and btw..how does this affect my gameplay again, anyways?)
Its all hurting the over-all game...Frankly *no* class should have any ability that allowed them to bypass playing the game...Whether it be entertainer or bounty hunter....
As was the original intent...macros were put in to allow players to avoid that which they found tedious or in need of automation. This has been quoted eloquently by Haden, I believe at one point...or maybe it was Raph. If the tedium of the game is so bad...would you rather a player accomplished it AFK, or quit the game? I'm sure SOE would rather have a paying afk'r than a dropped subscriber...
have never been one to bad mouth entertainers...it's your class, play it how you will
Actually, I am a bounty hunter on my main, an armosmith on my alt...And I have a maxed out Jedi
With the exception of a few broken flourishes and animations....the classes (Entertainer, Dancer and Musician)work. NOTHING game breaking here... Nothing that is NON-FUNCTIONAL similar to the problems with the other classes that have since been retooled and now function beautifully.
Wrong...
What game mechanic of the entertainer classes is broken? You state I am wrong...prove me wrong...WHAT skill of the entertainers is broken??
Since you wont look at it from an enterainers perspective, let me show you from an Armor smith perspective...
(please read this section before you respond...It should show you how your being unfair towards entertainers becuase *you* do not understand the class, or have no intrest in it)
What if there was a way to AFK armor-smith....From collection resources too making the armor...It all could be AFK'd....That armor smith would be able to churn out huge amounts of armor at a much cheaper price then any ATK smith could.
Harversters are an afk resource gatherer....
factories complete the construction process...while the armorsmith is afk...
Congratulations! we've fixed it! remove all factories and harvesters...nerf crafters more too!
make everyone sit actively at the keyboard....no more ui commands either.
/flourish 1
<wait 6 seconds>
/flourish 2
(character falls over, due to poor timing...OH NO!) and rinse and repeat for 23 hours a day.
while crafters hand craft components...and no more factories are available...after hand harvesting resources...an why dont we take out the ability to sell those resources to others as well...that forces the armorsmith to be atk!
In the end, that armor smtih would have a huge advanatge over any "playing" armor smith....IE everyone is forced to do this, or they can not compete...In the end, Armor smtihs saturate the market sooo much, that armor is simply not worth buying anymore...Its litterally not worth paying for.
The armorsmith class would then turn into a "bot" class, its only function being to remain active on a second account to produce armor. The class loses *all* playable functionality and there for is completely broken....
Uh-huh. You made that point sooo well.
So, on this point, you are wrong....Entertainers are broken...Their product is being saturated and diminshed by AFK, as well as their game play
Yep. and men and women are marginalized by glamour magazines and fashion shows on tv, too. Its a sad state of society, isnt it?
yet the day you take away my rights to look at a beatiful woman and enjoy it....Is the day you better kill me...
...In many respects they are broken far worse then any of those classes were...
umm...how again?
You have succeeded in causing game effecting changes....that will harm the gameplay of a much larger player base than the combined entertainer population
Name me one game breaking issue this will cause....And I will give you one of my macros that has already be re-written for a combat or crafter to work around this...
Did I say Game Breaking? (sorry...i did misspell though, it's game Affecting)
Go on, try....I want you too, really
CoB....Wite the CoB 10 times, and then have a /tell at the last time saying "Hit the button again"....
and your correspondants are responsible for letting such an irresponsible change be ENCOURAGED....
Again, not *my* correspondent...I am a combat toon who can actually see beyond my own desire...I know this change, if done correctly, is healthy for the game....
No. This change along with a complete revamp of ALL class levelling and game mechanics that are commonly referred to as 'grinding' might be positive....
but coming as it does...out of left field, without considering the repurcussions, (and with no other basis than a need to appease the entertainers who have whined about buffbots since the buffbot won a badge for being an outstanding example of the profession!) - is NOT a positive change.
It was irresponsible to put *any* system in place that allowed for unattended play...This mistake was made in beta, and should have been fixed....No other successful game allowed this..History has shown any game that does, has failed...
remove the ability to turn off the afk autoboot system. period.
Message Edited by Taewyn on 08-04-2004 02:14 AM
We wub macros just as much as the rest of you. What we don't like is the macros being abused in a such a way, that they interfere with our "functionality and design".