Dancer Archive

Thread: Reactions from the other correspondents?

Erawia_D
Wed Aug 04, 2004 7:17 am
#79
Here's what I see happening, its real, its right here right now, and its because of the ability to AFK play:



The entertainer professions are caught in a downward spiral loop. New entertainers are being subjected to more and more entertainers that are AFK playing in the cantinas, and are being TAUGHT by example that the way to do the majority of theprofession is AFK play.


Combat players get in the habit of running up to buffbots in cantinas. Whether or not you personally do this, I can say in my own experience as an entertainer the number of people who I can interact with vs. the number of combat players who zone around a buffbot and AFK while the buff is happening is WAY tilted in favor of the AFK buffbot.


New combat players see this same imbalance, and are generally surprised to find entertainers that are ATK.


What's this mean? New entertainers are more and more often subjected to a cantina full of 1- AFK entertainers, and 2- AFK combat players leaving until their buff/bf is healed.


Guess what? This mean that new entertainers are MORE likely to find the profession BORING being subjected to a cantina full of AFK entertainers and AFK combat players.


This means they are LESS LIKELY to stay entertainers.


This means the combat players will be LESS LIKELY to have the entertainers they need to heal them.


Let me say that again- the existence of buffbots and AFK play means our profession will be LESS LIKELY to have the number of players needed to support the combat professions.


Leading to more buffbots, more AFK entertainers, and start again at the top. (would that be a looping macro?).


Something is *desperately* needed to stop this from continuing and completely killing our professions.


Really, folks, its only hurting yourselves the more you used buffbots and AFK while receiving buffs and BF healing.


For these reasons, when I talk about this issue, I refer to it as removing AFK play, because at its root that is what it is about.


-erawia



/drink pangalacticgargleblaster;
/endpost;
AudioOrgana
Wed Aug 04, 2004 7:20 am
#80





Taewyn wrote:







No, it was not quickly, it was after I had several replies to Oqua in which that ignorance was demonstrated.


You see, to us, exactly the opposite happened...You said that we know nothing ot the "other players", while we saw that you pretty much knew nothing of how this affected entertainers...All youseemed concerned withwas how this change was going to effect said combat chars...


Now, after you learned that *both* of us were combat oriented, your tone changed...This can only lead me to assume that, in the begining,you thought our staunch support of this change was because we were "ignorant" dancers.....


Alsooqua hardly said anything displaying ignorance . She wasjust pointing out the *other side* of this argument IE that entertainers are players that need consideration too and, at least from my perspective, you thought that her defending the entertainers was ignorant. Ergo, any entertainer must be ignorant to all other issues...Hence my long winded posts about what I know ...See howthis post got to where it isnow? I dislike it when posts turn into he said she said stuff...Unfortunatly, this is a passionate issue, especially for the entertainers who are pretty much fighting for their class.





Yes, I see exactly how it got to how it was now. I was trying to carry on two different conversations with two different people who were taking offense at what I said to one, and incorporating it into a reply to an entirely different post, and doing this back and forth, unaware that I was being tag-teamed and my replies to one post were twisted into replies to another.Thenone of you quit, at which time all points were lost and you branched off to attempt to get me to begin an argument with you about the reasons others feel they will be adversely affected because you were mad I felt your wife's calling me selfish for wanting to be healed was ignorant of the VAST majority of players in this game who are combat roles, which are the sole reason the entertainer position exists.


Yep, very clear now. Next time, *I* will not be so naive.


AO

Message Edited by AudioOrgana on 08-04-2004 10:28 AM

Warryyr
Wed Aug 04, 2004 7:26 am
#81
I have found myself increasingly frustrated over the negativity in the forums lately. So much so that I've found myself avoiding them more and more. I fail to see how, just because entertainers see a benefit to recursive macro removals, we somehow made the Devs make this change. That's just plain ridiculous. When have the Devs made a sweeping game-wide change that affects every profession just because one profession asked for it.


Heck, look at the Image Designers - they got Stat Migration and the player base had that ability removed - and they did NOT even ask for that! The Devs do what they like and what they feel will benefit the game, period.


I am grateful to the Correspondents from other professions who came in here to add their opinions, and those of their community. Thank you for taking the time to come in and post.


This change, which most definitely will affect all professions in some way or another, will discourage AFK play. It will not solve the problem of AFK play. Nothing, I repeat, nothing in a MMORPG will reliably and completely destroy AFK play. However, I think this change helps prevent folks from taking about 30 seconds of thought and automating their PC to do stuff while they sleep, go to work, play volleyball, whatever. If the process weren't so easy and painless, I doubt many would bother doing it. It pushes people to use 3rd party programs to AFK - and that fact alone shows that the Devs do not want AFK'ing rampant, and if it's done, it's most likely done in ways they donot approve of and it violates the EULA.


What dissapoints me the most in all of this is this fact: the Devs are asking how this will affect your profession. TELL THEM. They are more than aware of legitimate uses of the macro system and are most likely working on additions to the game to provide for these uses once the recursives macros are gone. Complaining that the entertainers get their way with this, or how this will absolutely destroy the game as we know it will do nothing to help you once they implement this. If you tell them how you legitimately use the macro system, they will very likely find some way to accomodate your legitimate use of the system.


Stop arguing over petty things and personal gameplay perspectives and be constructive - now is the time more than ever to be constructive and make sure your legitimate use of a macro doesn't get looked over.


I think Kstarfire said it best:


Entertainers arent the reason the repeating macros are being removed. Things like combat looping cures, looping CoB, or even just looping eating food are the other reasons. There are MANY areas of the game were looping is done, some good, some bad, some dont harm anyone, and some change the course of battle.

What it boils down to is, no one profession or playstyle is the cause of this change.

KStarfire


So please, will you consider telling the Devs how this change is going to impact your profession, and keep the bickering to a minimum? Thanks for your time, I'm going back in hidiing.

Taewyn
Wed Aug 04, 2004 7:29 am
#82











Yes, I see exactly how it got to how it was now. I was trying to carry on two different conversations with two different people who were taking offense at what I said to one, and incorporating it into a reply to an entirely different post, and doing this back and forth, unaware that I was being tag-teamed and my replies to one post were twisted into replies to another, until one of you quit, at which time all points were lost and you branched off to attempt to get me to begin an argument with you about the reasons others feel they will be adversely affected because you were mad I felt your wife's calling me selfish for wanting to be healed was ignorant of the VAST majority of players in this game who are combat roles, which are the sole reason the entertainer position exists.


Yep, very clear now.


Nm, the martyr is back...


So much for not wanting to "win"...Its ok if you have to feed yourself that garbage to make you think there was some reason you sounded like a giant hypocrite through 90% of your posts ...Its all in black and white for others to read.


selfish for wanting to be healed was ignorant of the VAST majority of players in this game who are combat roles, which are the sole reason the entertainer position exists.


Ahh your true elitist nature once again revealed...Your more important because you are the "reason" entertainers exist and somehow we are "ignorant" for not simply acceptingthe fact that the needs of thecombat types superceed the needs of anyone who enjoys entertainer...


I wonder how you would feel if I said the sole reason combat types exist it to fuel the entertainers social/healing dynamic within the game.....Sounds kind of arrogent and self assuming doesnt it? (like almost all of your posts do)


Sounds like I am being an elitist, simply because I think my class is better then yours...Or because my class is more numerous, somehow it is superior...


Why dont you just say your better then all entertainers? Dont by hypocritical about your stance, just call a spade a spade be honest with yourself


Edit: Also, if you read the posts, I stated that there should be some type of slow BF healing in all cantinas....*you* however were arguing that without *buff bots*, namely doctor ones, you *cant* play. Again, it was not just about you being healed (That is a legitimate concern)...You said, specificly, buffs..You even mention the lack of ability to get buffs on TH's thread...


lol...Ok, I cant sleep , guess I will go to work tired....



Message Edited by Taewyn on 08-04-2004 10:29 AM




Taewyn Alsan Lt Colonel in service of the Empire


Taewyn and Oqua's "As you like it" Armor and Clothing store. On Naboo, right outside of Kaadara Location: +5729 +6376.


Taewyn
Wed Aug 04, 2004 7:36 am
#83









Also, if you look at the start of this post...I was replying to both you *and* hawk and you were both taking pieces of my argument and placeing it in diffrent posts...Yet somehow I was able to keep things straight and reply to you in a clear concise manner....


Me and oqua did both answer you, butour posts were very clearly diffrent, each with our own veiws retorting your opinion ....Not my problem if you are easily confused...Very, very easily....

Just because we are on the same side of the issue, does not meen we negotiate the best way to confuse you (dont think so highly of yourself) there were mearly two people for this change (me and oqua) and two people against it (you and hawk)...

Hawk dropped out and you were not able to keep the two people arguing against you straight...Again, thats kind of wierd, as everything is in text for you to read...I just have to say...Very, very easily confused....


Message Edited by Taewyn on 08-05-2004 06:51 PM




Taewyn Alsan Lt Colonel in service of the Empire


Taewyn and Oqua's "As you like it" Armor and Clothing store. On Naboo, right outside of Kaadara Location: +5729 +6376.


hawkbatleader1
Wed Aug 04, 2004 8:49 am
#84




Ravanne_Esi wrote:




hawkbatleader1 wrote:


With the exception of a few broken flourishes and animations....the classes (Entertainer, Dancer and Musician)work. NOTHING game breaking here... Nothing that is NON-FUNCTIONAL similar to the problems with the other classes that have since been retooled and now function beautifully.






Those flourishes and animations ARE the core of our professions, so they are indeed GAME BREAKING. And at least in Dancer our highest and therefro most sought after dances have three quarters of their flourishes MISSING. How much more NON-FUNCTIONAL can you get then not to exist?


And on another note, WE did not ask for this! This is a decision of the DEVs based on a game wide abuse of the macro system. The possiblity that it may help us with one of our main problems is incidental and should not be blamed on us. We had many ideas to solve our problem without touching the macro system but they were not implimented because this is not an Entertainer fix but a fix to a game wide problem.






One flourish functions EXACTLY the same as another, for game mechanic purposes.


If a swordsman has 2 attacks that share the same effect, and different animations, and only one worked....it would not affect his/her gameplay.


And yes....the correspondants pushing for the end of the recursive macro have been the entertainer correspondants...representing YOU, the entertainers. So you SHOULD expect a high level of in game backlash regarding this change.


You have NOT achieved a FIX to your classes, you HAVE achieved a NERF to the macroing system that was available to the entire player base.







The dev team would never allow any kind of imbalance so that one group of people would "cut swaths" through crowds of people.

Thunderheart - 6/17/04
Smuggler_Caylin
Wed Aug 04, 2004 10:23 am
#85
I'll pop back in and affirm that I never saw this proposed by any correspondent.


The devs came out of the blue to ask about removing recursive macros, no correspondent I know was asking for this.



The Infamous Caylin Borealis - First Master Smuggler on Bria
One of the Four Horsemen of the Smuggler Apocalypse!
:The Ghost with the Most:

Panthu
Wed Aug 04, 2004 10:28 am
#86




Smuggler_Caylin wrote:

I'll pop back in and affirm that I never saw this proposed by any correspondent.


The devs came out of the blue to ask about removing recursive macros, no correspondent I know was asking for this.



How about hooking me up with some good spice Cay? I'm a little on edge. /le freak out




P A N T H U Y GlitterUsagi
M i n d B o d y S p i r i t
Dancer ImageDesigner Doc

HalasterTheBlack
Wed Aug 04, 2004 10:30 am
#87
Holy crap... I've been aruging with the Dancer Correspondent this whole time without even realizing it...


/blush


/straightenJacket


/diveBackIn



Sif | Sigrún | Zondor | Gorgeth | -=Valkyrie Materials=- & [Valkyrie] Weapons
North Coronet Mall (244, -3540) - Weapons
South Coronet Mall (-100, -5760) - Resources
Theed, Naboo (-4370, 3425) - Powerups
Weesa pleased to bringya desa news dat mesa, JarJar, isa now da SOE Lead Producer.

Oqua
Wed Aug 04, 2004 10:41 am
#88
I was trying to carry on two different conversations with two different people who were taking offense at what I said to one, and incorporating it into a reply to an entirely different post, and doing this back and forth, unaware that I was being tag-teamed and my replies to one post were twisted into replies to another.



Oh please.



The only time I did any such thing, (and I believe I started my post as "this has to do with your response to Tae") was when you lambasted him as being insulting to you. Up till then, I was answering only to the posts you made to me.



What amazes me is that where Tae is my honey in RL, you all paint us as this tag team duo lying in wait for you all like spiders. So what you are saying is basically because we know one another its a concerted effort to belittle you and make you feel bad? Or we are purposely trying to confuse you? If that were the case, my post count would more then not be much higher...and I would be able to have that darn edit button (because I would post in all the posts he does).


I think its so funny that when two people come here "backing" the others similar viewpoints, its sharing knowledge and trying to let others know all the information from "both" sides. Find out that the people have a RL connection...oh my gawd! We are tag teaming you, trying to cause confusion and dementia amongst you....not because we may have legitimate concerns or insights, but because we get so much fun arguing with ya'll. See how ludicrous that sounds?



I would have stayed up more to argue with you, but what's the use? You will just do what you have been doing...trying to show me as dumb, selfish and evil breaking the game with my selfcentered desires. I got tired of seeing you intimate things about me not knowing the game and what not. Sorry if I "quit" on you.My bebe is more tenacious then myself though.



Macros aren't the problem. The problem is people abusing said macros: I can be afk and macro my way through entertainer; I can be afk and rooftop macro my way through jedi; I can be afk and get credits while at work by buffing, might as well get my 15 dollars worth; I can be afk and get skill tapes at work...that poor sap is running back and forth killing things in the cave, I will just camp this last pile of bones here though, boy is he dumb; let me just be afk killing these meatlumps, I can do this all day long and soon I have to get at leastsome crystals...besides, I am at work, might as well not waste valuable game time.



This isn't just about entertainers, so don't try and make us the scapegoats. This just affects our community greatly, as my husband eloquently put earlier (i.e. people to game interaction, people to people interaction).



You bring up the fact that we don't see how it affects the community as a whole, but we have illustrated that we do (by the fact that I have illustrated I don't just know the "inside of a cantina" only).


As I and others have stated, please keep macros. Just do away with bots/afk zombies. Help us do that.


What it is starting to look like though is that you don't wish to do that. That would interfere with your gameplay by possibly having you do without buffs. Again, it seems quite evident that that is where this all is stemming from. What did you all do before mind buffs were in the game? Did you just not hunt? I hunt all the time without mindbuffs...I just use brandy profusely (chefs love me and my bebe).






***On a parting note, please try to keep the critical comments to our correspondants to a minimum. I have not seen them say one derogatory or nasty thing to anyone else representing other professions/viewpoints. I think they do an incredible job considering the negative way our professions are treated/viewed by so many. To say that they want the "downfall" of the other classes and are going to "break the game" is unfair and untrue. I applaud them for being able to remain our liasons and cooler heads of reason, especially at times like these.***





Oqua Y Tryna Y Katya
(¯`'·.¸Taewyn's Angels¸.·'´¯
Taking care of all his wants and needs
VoweDarkwave
Wed Aug 04, 2004 10:58 am
#89




Smuggler_Caylin wrote:

I'll pop back in and affirm that I never saw this proposed by any correspondent.


The devs came out of the blue to ask about removing recursive macros, no correspondent I know was asking for this.






I'm posting a link to this very statement, because people are making things up now. Using/not using repeating macros has always been a controversy between Entertainers. All we wanted a bonus to at the keyboard players. Yeesh.




Warryyr - Starsider - Elder Musician Jedi
Warryyr - Gorath - Master Entertainer
Vowe Darkwave - Starsider - Elder Jedi

HalasterTheBlack
Wed Aug 04, 2004 11:23 am
#90




VoweDarkwave wrote:




Smuggler_Caylin wrote:

I'll pop back in and affirm that I never saw this proposed by any correspondent.


The devs came out of the blue to ask about removing recursive macros, no correspondent I know was asking for this.






I'm posting a link to this very statement, because people are making things up now. Using/not using repeating macros has always been a controversy between Entertainers. All we wanted a bonus to at the keyboard players. Yeesh.






Then fight for what you want and fight against what you say you don't want.



Sif | Sigrún | Zondor | Gorgeth | -=Valkyrie Materials=- & [Valkyrie] Weapons
North Coronet Mall (244, -3540) - Weapons
South Coronet Mall (-100, -5760) - Resources
Theed, Naboo (-4370, 3425) - Powerups
Weesa pleased to bringya desa news dat mesa, JarJar, isa now da SOE Lead Producer.

garvin
Wed Aug 04, 2004 11:30 am
#91





Smuggler_Caylin wrote:

I'll pop back in and affirm that I never saw this proposed by any correspondent.


The devs came out of the blue to ask about removing recursive macros, no correspondent I know was asking for this.




I'll second or third that...Panthu and the other Correspondents have worked VERY hard before and after TH's post about recursive macros offering tons of possible alternatives and bringing in feedback...


From what I've seen, this is basically what happened:



  1. Constant complaints came in about AFK Entertainers and BuffBots from all over the forums...

  2. The Devs fired back in response to these complaints with what they felt was the quickest way to kill the majority of AFK Entertainers and Buffbots in one quick swoop...They also felt this was a good way to end, or at least slow down, auto-grinding as well...

Nobody said it was the best route, which is probably the main reason TH made is original post looking for feedback...This may very well never even happen as I believe the Devs are in feedback gather mode...and all the while, great Correspondents like Panthu are still pushing great alternatives and bringing your feedback straight back to the Devs...


She definitely does you all proud...you can trust in that...

Message Edited by garvin on 08-04-2004 11:33 AM



Garvin Lansdowne
Retired Commando Correspondent - Current Blue Glowie
Master Commando / TKM || Architect / Shipwright / Master Droidsmith
ShadowStyrkeGuild.com: A WoW Guild Website

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