Dancer Archive
Thread: Reactions from the other correspondents?
Oqua wrote:
Also, to add to that point...
Doctors have limitations in stopping saturation of said market...they have to craft buff packs, where as dancer/musician bots have an "unlimited" supply (hence leading to possible saturation by bots).
A doctor would have to stop/limit in some way shape or form, due to them having a "cost" to their buffs...where as entertainers don't.
*** Would have edited it in to the last post, but where as I only post when I feel extremely necessary, I don't have an edit button *mock pout*
I know this was you responding to Tae's post, but I have to point out the irony and hypocrisy in you saying this to him.
I merely said help us fix our class (in my initial post in this thread). Keep macros and get rid of the bots....
This caused both you and Hawk to tell me I was "wrong" in surmising that this was the "downfall" of my class.
I countered by saying "okies, then maybe that was your experience, but you will see that many entertainers have had negative ones (with bots). What did you proceed to do at that point?
Tell me again that I was, um, what was the word...oh yes, wrong.
Not only that, but you proceeded to insult me (no "attempting") and call me ignorant to other classes, seeing only the inside of a cantina, and naive.
Take your own advice oh, proverbial pot.
Message Edited by AudioOrgana on 08-04-2004 07:41 AM
In my mind, this isn't exclusively about entertainers. I don't believe any MMOG should support any type of unattended gameplay, in any fashion, with the exception of intended game systems (such as vendors). To do so has a variety of negative effects, including marginalization of accomplishment, reduction of the value of a live player, unhealthy increase of unnecessary network traffic, and monopolization of resources intended for those actually playing the game. Many many industry pundits agree with this view, there have even been essays that have addressed the subject and it's affects, and most of the extremely popular and successful games stomp on unattended gameplay, providing more than adequate conterpoint to the argument that such a system is a huge boon to a game.
Most of the arguments I've seen here and elsewhere are based on the assumption that looping macros are required to perform certain tasks, or to relieve tedium of one sort or another. In every case, I can tell you these arguments are faulty. Why? Because in every case there is a better solution than a looping macro. The problem is that the player base is not giving the dev team the benefit of the doubt that they can and will find better ways to do things. The player base is reacting in fear.
I have no question in my mind that the dev team has made a wise choice here. I would be saying that no matter what profession I had chosen to play, because a lot of professions are affected by this issue in a negative fashion, not just entertainers. I believe there will be a lot of complaining and the devs may not address all the issues immediately, but in 6 months, I believe people will look back upon this and agree that it was an incredibly wise thing to do.
This isn't about entertainers. It's about a healthy game world where the live player is valued above an unattended one. You could argue that the timing is simply wrong to do it, and I would completely agree with you there.
It should have been done a long, long time ago.
.Your backhanded attempts at insults are really lost on me. This isn't about being "correct", it's about sharing our opinons on how WE play the game, and how other people are expressing their opinions. Unlike you, I do not think I know everything, nor would I be pompous enough to assume that I could. I simply can tell you how I feel about the situation, what my prior experience of playing this game for going on 18 months now is, and what I am reading on these boards and hearing about in-game fromother players. I'm not trying to "win" an argument, I am trying to get you to understand that "your mileage may vary", and finally that, like many other people I don't see this solving the problems that it is meant to.
Its not arrogance if you really know what your speaking of....I have no idea how chefs experimentation works, ergo, I would never comment or argue about that...
However, I have been very intrested in this change...So I have read it extensivly...I do know alot about it and how this will affect many of the classes..
Also, I am not trying too "defeat" you in anyway...I am trying to counter the opinions that your spreading here. Not because I want to "beat" you, but because I want to show others who are reading that yours is not the only opinion...
I am not being pompus, I am really just trying to show you that I am well versed in what I am speaking about....*you* were the one that pointed me to the other thread, there by questioning if I had any knowledge about the over-all effect of thisissue on other classes...If displaying that is pompus, then brand me pompus...
The reason I reference other peoples postings is because, again, unlike you, I do not know it all, and when I see correspondents I respectsaying that they also agree that this isn't the cure-all that some of you believe, that it's not going to reduce the exploiting it's only going to reduce the responsible uses of macros, I have to believe that I can't be entirely naive about the issues as you'd like to postulate.
Again, if your *using* their arguments to aid yours, then you conotate that you have knowledge in that area.....So, if I am a know it all, then you are also guilty. I was just showing you that I had knowledge in the area I was speaking, hence the post with the problems/solutions. How is that being a know it all...For all intents and purposes, you asked for it. (thats not sarcasim, you did throw down the gauntlet with your "You should read" post)
The responsible use of macros can easily be done with scripts...AFK doc buff, entertainer buffs, and farming are *not* responsible....Everything else in game, except for weapon switches, can be done with scripts, if the player is ATK. If anything this "enforces" responsible use of macros as opposed to the irresponsible use of AFK looping them.
On the idea that this will be a cure-all...Do not make me out to be naive, I know better then that
. I know many people will start using 3rd party programs, or time delayed macros. However, this is the first step to fixing that...People will not be apt to use 3rd party macros in the cantina doorway, this atleast willprobably drive the buff bots "underground".
Even then, many players will *not* use 3rd party macros due to the EULA and since most of this team comes from Origin systems, I know they are not above banning 3rd party program users....
So, I'm glad you think this is best for the game and it will make Entertainers happy. More power to you. I don't think it will, and all it will do is reduce what time I spend combatting, and hopefully I will find some other part of the game to play. I am worried about other players, but I am not here to fight their battles for them; I have clearly expressed my reasons for thinking this change is wrong, one voice of many. I do not presume to have the absoulte answer, but I can say that I have a very bad feeling about this...
Fair enough....I do respect your opinion....Also, I agree, if done wrong, it can harm more then help...But, I think it will be good
Message Edited by Taewyn on 08-04-2004 07:12 AM
Taewyn wrote:
Yes, because I have read what other classes have said about this and while I do not feel qualified to argue things like CoB, I can point to the postings people who DO have a problem have made. Unlike you, I do not profess to be an expert - I can simply tell you how this is going to affect me, and tell you my impressions of what others have said will be their issues.
You make it sound like I am professing with no knowledge in what I say?
Everything I have said so far I have tested in game....I can create all the macros I have said, as well as do everything I said....
It does not take an "exeprt" or a "know it all" to research their argument...All it takes is a little bit of board time, as well as some reading and thinking...Its not that hard, and if you want to really make a point, then you should really know about the things *you use* in you arguments...
For crying out loud, Tae. I simply have acknowldeged that other players have strong negative feelings about this change as well. What I have expressed in this thread regarding entertainers was in response to NewJedi's assertions that macroing "killed" the profession, and I pointed out the other factors that were the cause, not the enabler the macroing was, and my own concerns about finding entertainers. I did not take on every single argument anyone has made against this change as my own. You are trying to make me the poster child for this, and I will not allow it. I have made my opinions and experiences known, and have shown I understand what other people's concerns are.
My experience has been very different, as it will be between both individuals and servers. There are some times where it is NOT possible, in spite of having entertainers on your friend list.
I agree, each person is diffrent..I can not "tell you" that your doing something wrong, as I do not know what it is like on your server...However, I can say, from my experience that it is possible
It is possible for YOU on YOUR server. I know that the majority of the time I am forced to watch an AFK dancer to heal my BF because I cannot find a ATK player, even when I shout offering "25/50K to anyone who is ATK!" in a crowded cantina.
Your backhanded attempts at insults are really lost on me. This isn't about being "correct", it's about sharing our opinons on how WE play the game, and how other people are expressing their opinions. Unlike you, I do not think I know everything, nor would I be pompous enough to assume that I could. I simply can tell you how I feel about the situation, what my prior experience of playing this game for going on 18 months now is, and what I am reading on these boards and hearing about in-game fromother players. I'm not trying to "win" an argument, I am trying to get you to understand that "your mileage may vary", and finally that, like many other people I don't see this solving the problems that it is meant to.
Its not arrogance if you really know what your speaking of....I have no idea how chefs experimentation works, ergo, I would never comment or argue about that...
However, I have been very intrested in this change...So I have read it extensivly...I do know alot about it and how this will affect many of the classes..
Also, I am not trying too "defeat" you in anyway...I am trying to counter the opinions that your spreading here. Not because I want to "beat" you, but because I want to show others who are reading that yours is not the only opinion...
I am not being pompus, I am really just trying to show you that I am well versed in what I am speaking about....*you* were the one that pointed me to the other thread, there by questioning if I had any knowledge in this what so ever...If displaying that is pompus, then brand me pompus...
I have also read how I believe it will affect many classes, and your assertions that you can "solve" their issues without even knowing what commands they will eliminate (ui action, for instance) is what is pompous. I asked you about that thread because your arguments completely dismiss all these concerns, and I do not feel you (or anyone) can do that at this time.
The reason I reference other peoples postings is because, again, unlike you, I do not know it all, and when I see correspondents I respectsaying that they also agree that this isn't the cure-all that some of you believe, that it's not going to reduce the exploiting it's only going to reduce the responsible uses of macros, I have to believe that I can't be entirely naive about the issues as you'd like to postulate.
Again, if your *using* their arguments to aid yours, then you conotate that you have knowledge in that area.....So, if I am a know it all, then you are also guilty. I was just showing you that I had knowledge in the area I was speaking, hence the post with the problems/solutions. How is that being a know it all...For all intents and purposes, you asked for it. (thats not sarcasim, you did throw down the gauntlet with your "You should read" post)
The responsible use of macros can easily be done with scripts...AFK doc buff, entertainer buffs, and farming are *not* responsible....Everything else in game, except for weapon switches, can be done with scripts, if the player is ATK. If anything this "enforces" responsible use of macros as opposed to the irresponsible use of AFK looping them.
On the idea that this will be a cure-all...Do not make me out to be naive, I know better then that
Even then, many players will *not* use 3rd part macros due to the EULA and since most of this team comes from Origin systems, I know they are not above banning 3rd party program users....
Please refer to my much earlier post about finding those people, which is neigh impossible. Even technologically if it wasn't, getting the CS to do it is going to be quite a trick, since it takes days sometimes just to get them to respond to reports of anything. With all the problems this game has, further policing and spreading of CS time isn't going to help.
So, I'm glad you think this is best for the game and it will make Entertainers happy. More power to you. I don't think it will, and all it will do is reduce what time I spend combatting, and hopefully I will find some other part of the game to play. I am worried about other players, but I am not here to fight their battles for them; I have clearly expressed my reasons for thinking this change is wrong, one voice of many. I do not presume to have the absoulte answer, but I can say that I have a very bad feeling about this...
Fair enough....
Message Edited by Taewyn on 08-04-2004 07:05 AM
Message Edited by AudioOrgana on 08-04-2004 08:24 AM
I in no way said what I was saying was gospel....Reread my post, I mostly agreed with your assertion that things are diffrent.
Message Edited by Taewyn on 08-04-2004 07:43 AM
Taewyn wrote:
For crying out loud, Tae. I simply have acknowldeged that other players have strong negative feelings about this change as well. What I have expressed in this thread regarding entertainers was in response to NewJedi's assertions that macroing "killed" the profession, and I pointed out the other factors that were the cause, not the enabler the macroing was, and my own concerns about finding entertainers. I did not take on every single argument anyone has made against this change as my own. You are trying to make me the poster child for this, and I will not allow it. I have made my opinions and experiences known, and have shown I understand what other people's concerns are.
Multiple times in your posts you said "This affects many classes". To which I responded, how? Which then you pointed to that thread. To which I responded that not only had I read that thread, but also saw many work around already done.
I fail to see how that makes you a poster child...All I was asking was if you actually did pick up a valid concern that I could not work around. If you could do that *one* thing, my opinion might have changed. The question was not to make you look dumb, but infact it was to see if there was something I missed.
If it came across as arogant, it is only because you either were not prepared to be asked the question, or were not prepared to answer it. Again, I will go with the later, with is fine. However, I will not just "accept" you calling me arrogant for asking you a simple question.
I said you were arrogant because you seem to think that you have all the answers to everyone's concerns. Since you do, I would suggest you start replying to those people, instead of replying to me about your soloutions to CoB or what have you. You asked me to talk about those things, and I am not qualified to, and I admitted this right up front. You also cannot say you can come up with work-arounds when we don't even know what it is we are going to have to work around (/ui action? trunication of macros at logout?).
You are making me the poster child because you are putting the responsibility of 101 pages of replies in my hands, saying it is my burden to prove their arguments valid or not simply because I acknowledge their presence and it ismy belief that you cannot dismiss them as easily as you have.
I began going through the thread and listing the issue back when you asked, but decided against it becausemy bringing them here would be futile, because, again, I am not arguing for or against those issues, simply realizing they exist and cannot be ignored. Again, I am not going to present other peoples arguments for them, I simply have stated that other people believe it will be a problem for them as well in their individual circumstances.
Instead of wasting time trying to get me to argue these things with you, please wave your magic wand and go solve all these people's concerns. I'm sure TH and the Devs would really appriciate it.
AO
Message Edited by AudioOrgana on 08-04-2004 08:52 AM
Just going back a bit, to show you exactly when you started being "arrogant".....
Taewyn, you can consider this reply to you as well. It's really a very complex issue that you both are trying to marginalize to fit your agendas. It's not that we don't want to interact, it's that it's not always possible. It's clear that you choose not understand the needs of your clients, therefore you cannot be expected to understand the rationale of why eliminating AFKers from your profession is going to do much more harm for the general playerbase than will help the small segment of players who choose to be career entertainers and spend more time complaining about how other people play the profession than recognizing the reason your profession even exists in the first place.
Here you automaticly assume that I am a dancer of some sort becuase I am arguing for this...I am not, as I said many times...Yet you speak to me like I know nothing of the outside player base....You even go farther in your next post.
Your continued ignorance of anything other than the inside of a cantina is astounding; in order for combat people (and people like myself who combat as well as craft/support professions) to be able to play their profession they are required to find entertainers constantly, i.e. every play session.
Unlike you, I do not think I know everything, nor would I be pompous enough to assume that I could.
Before you relized we were not dancers, you seemed awfully pompus to me, and you certainly tried backing us down with the "you know everything angle, sorry just had to show how your tone has changed from the "I know it all" to the poor martyr that Taewyn is being rude towards
You again, assume that Oquais "ignorant" of anything other then theCantina....This veiw was typical in all your posts, almost as though you were"looking down" on any dancer who dared not share your veiw....If they did not see things exactly like you did then they must be an ignorant dancing clown...
This is where our tones changed...This is where Istarted forcing the "knowledge"issue...You did not evenstart speaking to oqua or myself with any manner of respect until you learned that we *both* have combat toons as well as Jedi.
So, if you became this "poster martyr" that was backed into a corner by my arrogance, it was brought on by you...I did not start throwing the insults or acting like I was superior to anyone here first...My arguments were about the subgect.
You on the other hand made mention (multiple times) that you were "well experienced in many fields, as well as a crafter since beta"...So, who exactly sounded like a know it all first?
Again, if you do not wantan argument pushed or your knowledge behind said argument questioned, then do not talk down to people like they know nothing.....
Message Edited by Taewyn on 08-04-2004 08:28 AM
Instead of wasting time trying to get me to argue these things with you, please wave your magic wand and go solve all these people's concerns. I'm sure TH and the Devs would really appriciate it.
You should read the post ...Many people are helping and trying to show people how to cope without macros.....Its like a drug though people scream even if they dont need it....So, I have waved the wand many times in that thread, and will wave it no more.
When the change goes live, everyone I know will come together, as wel have numerous times, to work around this....
Taewyn wrote:
Also, another thing, about arrogance....Now, you probably did not meen to do this but you did do it. Go look at your posts in the begining, when we first started this discussion. You threw out words like arrogant and naive long before any insults were made to you. It was almost like you thought yourself "above" any dancer or entertainer here. That if somone was a dancer, they could not possibly know about the "real" game and how things "really" work....
Like I said, I am sure you did not meen it like that, but its how it sounded...So if I got a little pushy with "requiring" your facts, that was a big reason...
Your continued ignorance of anything other than the inside of a cantina is astounding; in order for combat people (and people like myself who combat as well as craft/support professions) to be able to play their profession they are required to find entertainers constantly, i.e. every play session.
Ahh, that is accurately describingbehavior...It sounds like you were getting frustrated with us "moronic" entertainers who could not possible know anything of the other professions in the game and wanted to show us your "vast" knowledge of the game.....Yes, btw, the sarcasim is thick
Truth be told, arguments on both sides were valid and good...However you got frustrated that neither of us would shut up and accept your word as the "facts" and quickly made this stereo-typical assement of us as being "ignorant".
The best way to truely "discuss" your opinions is to be polite and eloquent...Not call those arguing against you ignorant and refering to them as if they know nothing of "combat people".
Oqua and myself have played alot of games in between work, children and school ect ....We have had combat chars, healers, buffers and just about everything in-between....Your assesment was rude, brash and short sighted. So, if I became that way after-words, you know why
Message Edited by Taewyn on 08-04-2004 08:40 AM
Taewyn wrote:
Your continued ignorance of anything other than the inside of a cantina is astounding; in order for combat people (and people like myself who combat as well as craft/support professions) to be able to play their profession they are required to find entertainers constantly, i.e. every play session.
Ahh, that is accurately describingbehavior...It sounds like you were getting frustrated with us "moronic" entertainers who could not possible know anything of the other professions in the game and wanted to show us your "vast" knowledge of the game.....Yes, btw, the sarcasim is thick
Do you really want to keep arguing this? I didn't make that statement until AFTER Oqua began telling me how selfish I was for wating someone to be able to heal me in the off hours, and I said that demonstrated ignorance. It was not in response to you, but as I'll point out below, now I understand why the two of you keep twisting my replies to one of you, taking it out of context, and then taking us further away from the topic at hand.
Truth be told, arguments on both sides were valid and good...However you got frustrated that neither of us would shut up and accepted your word as the "facts" and quickly made this stereo-typical assement of us as being "ignorant".
No, it was not quickly, it was after I had several replies to Oqua in which that ignorance was demonstrated.
The best way to truely "discuss" your opinions is to be polite and eloquent...Not call those arguing against you ignorant and refering to them as if they know nothing of "combat people".
Yes, this is true, but when people don't understand eloquence and demonstrate ignorance, I pointed it out.
Oqua and myself have played alot of games in between work, children and school ect
AH! It all becomes clear. Tag-team, huh? You two know each other. My assessment was based on the statements being made in this thread. You both mangled my statements I made a reply to a point you made, Oqua replies like it's a reply to something he/she said, etc. which just brought this thread away from the topic and here we arrive at the finer points of personality.
The point is, I feel this will negatively impact how much fun I have in this game, and my ability to function within it. Other people feel the same way. You do not. Regardless of how you percieve my personality, and your claim that you can solve all of those problems by "writing a script", that does not negate the opinions other people hold, nor make them "selfish" for wanting to play the game.
AO
Message Edited by Taewyn on 08-04-2004 08:26 AM
Do you really want to keep arguing this? I didn't make that statement until AFTER Oqua began telling me how selfish I was for wating someone to be able to heal me in the off hours, and I said that demonstrated ignorance. It was not in response to you, but as I'll point out below, now I understand why the two of you keep twisting my replies to one of you, taking it out of context, and then taking us further away from the topic at hand.
Nope, and this will be my last post, I have said everything I wanted too...I have to go to bed so I can be up for work at 2 ....
No, it was not quickly, it was after I had several replies to Oqua in which that ignorance was demonstrated.
You see, to us, exactly the opposite happened...You said that we know nothing ot the "other players", while we saw that you pretty much knew nothing of how this affected entertainers...All youseemed concerned withwas how this change was going to effect said combat chars...
Now, after you learned that *both* of us were combat oriented, your tone changed...This can only lead me to assume that, in the begining,you thought our staunch support of this change was because we were "ignorant" dancers.....
Alsooqua hardly said anything displaying ignorance . She wasjust pointing out the *other side* of this argument IE that entertainers are players that need consideration too and, at least from my perspective, you thought that her defending the entertainers was ignorant. Ergo, any entertainer must be ignorant to all other issues...Hence my long winded posts about what I know ...See howthis post got to where it isnow? I dislike it when posts turn into he said she said stuff...Unfortunatly, this is a passionate issue, especially for the entertainers who are pretty much fighting for their class.
AH! It all becomes clear. Tag-team, huh? You two know each other
We did not hide it Oqua even refered to me as her hubby earlier
The point is, I feel this will negatively impact how much fun I have in this game, and my ability to function within it. Other people feel the same way. You do not. Regardless of how you percieve my personality, and your claim that you can solve all of those problems by "writing a script", that does not negate the opinions other people hold, nor make them "selfish" for wanting to play the game.
On your first point...I say fair enough...I could very well be wrong, the devs could blow this and make the change extend to idiotic proportions...I do not personally think that, but yes, it could happen.
As for the "selfish" part...We said that, for one reason, because many people simply do not care if buff bots hurt dancers...As long as they have a place to get buffs and heal. Whether you ment too or not, you did this quite a few times..Saying in verbatim "Combat types need buff bots to play".
So, what I got out of that (and many dancers do) is that you were baisicly saying "I frankly dont care if this is killing your profession, in order to play *my* profession I need yours dead"
Now, I know thats not what you really ment..You just want to play your class with as little interuption as possible...You dont have 12 hours to sit on a game. Thats fine...The only point I was trying to make is that combat people *need* to see the plight that the dancers are going through. They need to see that this role they fill is their one true in-game function.
Entertainers need a little space to fill as well, they can not be destroyed simply for quick and easy combat. Now, I agree, there has to be a middle ground for healing at least...Off hour players need some way to heal...However, entertainers need a real role in the game as well, they can't be this non-play profession anymore, its killing the class...
Well, good night and thank you for the discussion
Message Edited by Taewyn on 08-04-2004 09:08 AM