Dancer Archive
Thread: Reactions from the other correspondents?
Oqua
Wed Aug 04, 2004 2:45 am
#53
But see..that is where you aren't seeing the difference. For my availability isn't there when you need it yes? My supply isn't meeting your demand. Right? That is where the possible outrage is coming from.
How am I naive?
Because I see that this has been an ongoing problem for the entertainer community? Because I have searched high and low for buffs, and have seen my husband do so, to no avail? Funny, that doesn't derail our game though...we still manage to play and enjoy it without constantly being tied to this so called "buff teet" that you say SOE has you and many others tethered to.
Again, this wasn't something that was a dev given right to all classes to be able to easily find when and wherever they wish, which is what you are making it seem now. This was something that a class offered as their source of "worth" in the community, yes or no? And now, because its been abused you are wondering why some might think it needs to be changed to help restore functionality to said class? Now who is naive?
You have brought up the medic profession numerous times. Many players have medic skills, so why not get entertainer skills? I have gone around from city to city looking for a doctor to buff me, and many times not been able to find one. Sorry, but I don't have access to the magic buff bot that you might have...so I know what its like to do without.
I for one am glad you are discussing this with me Aud, because you know what...at least I now know why there is such an outcry. Its not what was previously said, that they were primarily concerned about getting rid of macros and the negative impact this would have on other crafters, etc. This is pretty much what I thought it to be from the get go...just people upset that something they got use to getting (a perpetuated abuse) is possibly going away.
At least you are honest about it and not trying to hide behind that macro smokescreen.
Taewyn
Wed Aug 04, 2004 3:00 am
#54
There is a difference between "on demand" and "not available".
I don't expect an entertainer to appear before me instantly in the wilds of Dantooine, but then again, I don't expect to have to spend an hour trying to find one.
I don't expect an entertainer to appear before me instantly in the wilds of Dantooine, but then again, I don't expect to have to spend an hour trying to find one.
Perhaps they are not available because they are useless? As I said above...The buff bots have crushed any tangible usefullness out of "live" entertainers...There is no reason to play "live" if somone AFK can do your job as good.
I will accept the fact that there may not be enough entertainers (and I belive cantinas should have a slow BF heal rate like med centers do for wounds)...*but* will you accept the fact that there may be more of a desire to play an entertainer if the buff bots are not squelching their game play?
Again, how did it make the melee classes feel when they saw creatures taking their jobs? Or when they saw ATST's tanking mobs better then they could? It made them mad...So why should a bot be allowed to do things on the same level as a dancer? it makes no sense...
If you don't want more money, or thanks, or anything but to entertain, no one is stopping you from doing so, and your profession is not "wrecked". You seem to simply want less people playing your profession, and you want to dictate how those that do play participate in it, which has an effect on the vast majority of players of this game who play combat roles.
Can I ask you something? You are a riflemen correct?
What if, for some odd reason, Rifles could kill anything in like 3 or 4 hits.....Andat everyPoI, in every city, in every place where there was any content, you saw an AFK riflemen there killing everything and looting it...
Edit: I know, this sounds ludicrous...But just think if everywhere you turned an AFK bot was doing *everything* you could do...Would that not suck? You are probably rolling your eyes at this analogy and saying "God, that would never happen"...Your right, it wont...Because that would be an idiotic un-balance and would destroy the game for most "combat types" (as there would be no way to counter or be superior to these AFK guys)...So why is it ok for the game to be destroyed like this for entertainers?
How would that make you feel? Would you want that changed?
Step into these dancers shoes for just one moment...Think about how they feel knowing that anything they do in game can be replaced by somone who is not even at the key board.....That is a horrible feeling....
This is but a minor part of the issue, as players across the board will be hurt by this change, and it's a shame that you are so naive to think that this will somehow "fix" your profession and that the far-reaching effects of this are far more detremental than entertainers who don't try to distingush themselves from the AFKers and capitalize on the situation instead of trying to wreck the game for everyone else in the process.
Again....I ask....
How will this affect you? How will this destroy others game play?
Also, this change is being made to stop exploits on many levels, not just with entertainers...However, I really want to know how this hurts you...
Give ATK entertainers HUGE benefits, make them glow and sparkle and maybe float around in the air to be worshiped, make my mind buff soar because there is an ATK player instead of an AFK, make me WANT to spend an hour finding you...bring your profession UP instead of bringing everyone else DOWN.
Entertainers just want a class that needs to be played..Rather then a class that is more effective running on an old second computerlooping amacro...Its really that simple.
Also, where could they go so far as "up"? Combat is already inbalanced because of mind...Would you want them togive ATK bigger buffs? Should they really change any sub systems now,while they are trying desperatly to fix the already broken HAM?
You see, *every* change has consequences...The devs have constantly tried to "beef" rather then "balance" and in many ways all it does is destroy the game....Again, there is nothing you can do here that *wont* have far reaching consequences into every class but that is the nature of change in MMOs...Balance is often only gotten through thewide-spread changing of everyone, not just one class...
Message Edited by Taewyn on 08-04-2004 05:08 AM
AudioOrgana
Wed Aug 04, 2004 3:16 am
#55
Oqua wrote:I for one am glad you are discussing this with me Aud, because you know what...at least I now know why there is such an outcry. Its not what was previously said, that they were primarily concerned about getting rid of macros and the negative impact this would have on other crafters, etc. This is pretty much what I thought it to be from the get go...just people upset that something they got use to getting (a perpetuated abuse) is possibly going away.At least you are honest about it and not trying to hide behind that macro smokescreen.
Then you haven't read my postings very well, Oqua.
As I have repeated over and over, this is but ONE aspect of the problem that is going to be created. As you ignore, this also will affect doctor buffs (but I don't hear doctors supporting their removal...), crafting macros, travel macros, and combat macros that were used responsibly by ATK players. I have continued discussing this aspect because it is really only entertainers who are fully supporting this change, and we are in the dancer forum. I also happen to play a lot during off-hours, so this one ramification of the change it is of special concern to me.
However, again, as I have said, there are many more far-reaching effects that go way beyond entertainers which have been illustrated in the 101 page thread TH started. My responses in this thread have had to do with the claims that "macros killed cantinas" and the belief among some entertainers that this will not create hardship for other players when they voice their support for this, as we are in the Dancer forum.
I am upset that core functionality is being ripped out of the game, for ALL professions, not just your myopic view of Entertaining (in spite of whatever other professions you have grinded) being the center of all of this. It's just that some of you seem to think this change was centered around you, and are of the misconception that it is going to help your profession so much at the expense of so many others.
KStarfire is right, there were many reasons for this change, but I believe that those individual things need to be addressed (i.e. people being able to use the /loot command to camp dungeon loot spawns, or the fact that people can use macros to combat permanent static spawns - gee, maybe removing the thug who appears day in and day out in front of the Moeina cantina and elsewhere would help...or eliminating the /target cycle commands...afk combat would be gone). One of these issues is Entertainers, and my participation in this thread began because claims were being made specific to the "downfall" of your set of professions that were utterly ignoring every other factor that contributed to the issue, and this one aspect of the issue is important to me personally.
Unlike you, it seems, I can see the complexities of the issues this change will cause for everyone, not simply a false benefit that one set of professions think they are going to recieve besides personal satisfaction of wrecking the game experience of virtually every other profession in the game. Even that satisfaction is false, as again, this change isn't all about you - this isn't an "entertainer fix", but a decision that will change the entire game and I believe (along with many others) that this is a classic case of "throw the baby out with the bathwater" where the cure will be far outweighed by the damage it will cause.
AO
AudioOrgana
Wed Aug 04, 2004 3:19 am
#56
Taewyn wrote:
How will this affect you? How will this destroy others game play?
I have expressed very clearly how this will negatively affect me when it comes to entertainers, and there is a 101 page thread where I and others have expressed how this will negatively impact other professions. I suggest you go read it - and TH's replies, where he admits that he sees these issues as well.
I am not debating that your profession may or may not have issues, just that it is not a justifcation to rip the rest of the game apart, even though, again, as we both agree, entertaining is not the only reason for this change. Again, I just gave some flighty examples above, but many entertainers have come up with very creative solutions to encourage and reward ATK entertainers without having to support gutting the game.
AO
Message Edited by AudioOrgana on 08-04-2004 06:26 AM
AudioOrgana
Wed Aug 04, 2004 3:43 am
#57
Taewyn wrote:
So, do *you* have any specificly? I will do my best to not only answer you, but write you a script to bypass this change
personally.....
This is not only about me, it is about the entire game.
As I have said, ad nauseam, the part of this change that worries ME personally THE MOST is the fact that I play during off-hours and am no longer going to have the option of visiting an AFK doctor or entertainer when there is no other choice available. You cannot solve that with a script.
I am a crafter, and I do not use crafting macros. Others do, and I do not judge them nor do I presume that my need (or lack thereof) trumps theirs. As a rifleman, I am severely overpowered and I don't use macros because I don't have time-based moves or switch weapons like other professions do, like BH or Commando. I'm not going to argue about CoB or any other ability I do not posess because I have never used it and am not qualified to discuss the merits of it being part of a macro or not.
Read what correspondents have said, who can speak much better for their individual professions than I can - I am not going to presume to argue their points. Please go back to the first page of this post and read what Smuggler_Caylin, J3ster, and Tanks have had to say about how this impacts them and their professions. The only people I see that are fully, 100% for this change are entertainers.
AO
[Edit:Formatting...]
Message Edited by AudioOrgana on 08-04-2004 06:48 AM
Taewyn
Wed Aug 04, 2004 4:00 am
#58
This is not only about me, it is about the entire game
Yes, but your arguing against this change and one of your reasons was the negative impact on other *classes*, you did make that a point in your argument. So surely you then must have done some research into that right?
I meen you would not just skim throughthose posts then point to that thread saying "See see! Look at all the complaints!". You should know that 90% of the people on this board will complain at the drop of a hat...Most of them do not even think of the effects a change will haveover-all, or in what ways this change will "really" affect them.
What I am saying is, if your going to use something in your argument, then please, know the problem in out and backwards..
As I have said, ad nauseam, the part of this change that worries ME personally THE MOST is the fact that I play during off-hours and am no longer going to have the option of visiting an AFK doctor or entertainer when there is no other choice available. You cannot solve that with a script
I play in off-peak hours as well...I work second shift. I know two entertainers and more then a few docs who play at my time...I am actually friends with them 
. Not because I "know" them, but because we rely on each other...IE we have formed an in-game dependece out of *need*. (This was before buff bots).
. Not because I "know" them, but because we rely on each other...IE we have formed an in-game dependece out of *need*. (This was before buff bots).I still have those ties, therefor I almost always have acess to buffs, when I need them. This is what people need to do....You *need* to make friends and associations with people who play at your time...It is more difficult for us night owls, but its very possible.
Also, as I said before, you *will* find more docs/entertainers actually playing in off peak hours after this goes live. Many who do not buff will start because you will now require their services, instead of using the local night time buff bot. It may not be as easy as it is now, but at least you will be interacting with *people* and not buff bots.
If Ican do it, then you can. I play on tarq, and being one of the "newer" servers the population is rather low, so I know it can be hard, but it is possible. Besides, I did a mage too 65 in EQ, mostly playing a 2am EST (Damn over-time)...And in that game you need 4 or 5 people for *anything*...So, I guess this game seems rather lax in that area to me personally. Though I will admit, sometimes it is a royal pain 
.
.. Please go back to the first page of this post and read what Smuggler_Caylin, J3ster, and Tanks have had to say about how this impacts them and their professions. The only people I see that are fully, 100% for this change are entertainers.
Again, in recent days I have been on the smuggler and BH as well as the GCW forum....I know the faction buying issue with smuggler, but this is an interface problem, which again, can be helped with a long script. Yes, its annoying, but its something that has needed attention for a while.
I know all the BH issues back and front .....I am a BH...
.....I am a BH...As for the GCW, I am an avid poster on there too...
All in all, I try to verse myself well in *anything* I support...If I am going to argue for or against something then I want to make sure that I know it inside and out...I do have a slight advantage being that I am a speed reader . However, in the end, I will not argue a point if I am not pretty positive that I am correct....
. However, in the end, I will not argue a point if I am not pretty positive that I am correct....Message Edited by Taewyn on 08-04-2004 06:09 AM
Oqua
Wed Aug 04, 2004 4:09 am
#59
No, its you who haven't read any of my postings...specifically the first one I made.
No one here wants to "break the game". A point which you are right, you seem to go on and on"ad nauseum" in stating.
No one here wants to do away with macros. In fact, I think I stated most of us use and like macros.
The lone buff bot who is once in a while checked on and monitered on and off (either on another comp and/or by toggling) isn't going to be affected by this "game breaking" change too much...so you will still have your guild bots going more then not...but that isn't at all to what dancers/musicians/entertainers are referring to. We aren't affected by the bots in guildhalls and small "speakeasy" bot houses.
I said yes, lets keep macros. They do make much of the game easier on the hands/wrists.
So how is that game breaking if we keep that...which I think most entertainers will agree isn't the "evil" that you see us brandishing pitchforks atand chasing around with torches.
Just get rid of buffbots in the cantinas and the afk zombies cluttering up the floor. How is that dictating me not wanting someone in my class? No, I want entertainers to dance and play their music. I want to see synchronized routines and what not. I want the cantina filled with people. How is that saying I don't want people playing entertainers? I think a live entertainer is alot different then what you and many others are use to seeing...bots and zombies. So please, don't tell me I don't want people to play...in fact...I want them to do just that...PLAY.
Keep macros.
Do away with what you say is only a "minor" thing in the big picture then....do away with the bots and zombies.
I think that is what I said in the first post I said...before all this you went on ad nauseum...or did you not read my postings very well? *tiny smile*
P.S. "Unlike you", I am trying to see this from "all" angles...not just me, myself, and I. I read what everyone says, again...dont' get rid of macros...just get rid of the bots/zombies. Other then purely selfish "I can't get what I want when I want" what other else does this do to the "community" at large? And what in heavens name did you do before buffs? If I remember correctly, I didn't have the ability to buff for quite a while.
Taewyn
Wed Aug 04, 2004 4:16 am
#60
Also, Audio.....
I am not against the looping macros personally...I am against AFK game play, which is what the devs are going after...
If they could find a way to consitently kick AFK people, then that *would* be preferential to this...However, this change is needed 10 months ago...We can not wait another 6 months for a less invasive solution to this...
If another can be found, I will support it 100%...Tiagra offered some good ones involving key-board monitering, hopefully they will get looked at.
In the end, I want to see game play enhanced...Right now this game is hurting pretty bad, and I really want to see it get better...If there is another idea out there that is superior and can be done speedily, then I will get behind that....Until the devs say otherwise though, this solution seems to solve at least a large portion of the problem at hand (AFKIng will never be solved fully, but this will help)
Oqua
Wed Aug 04, 2004 4:19 am
#61
Oh, and before I go to bed...
You are right..doctors dont' complain about bots.
I think I know of one...thats right ONE...doctor bot that is on from server up to server down. That bot is on dantooine, in a private little house which you have to pay a fee to enter.
Now, should there be afk bots in the middle of coronet...say in front of the starport perhaps, cutting into doctors buffing long lines of people...I bet you would probably have a few complain about how everyone leaves their line once the bots set up shop. No waiting in line, no having to listen to their preprogrammed "witty" sayings.
Please don't compare the two...the situations are quite different.
AudioOrgana
Wed Aug 04, 2004 4:23 am
#62
Taewyn wrote:
This is not only about me, it is about the entire game
Yes, but your arguing against this change and one of your reasons was the negative impact on other *classes*, you did make that a point in your argument. So surely you then must have done some research into that right?
I meen you would not just skim throughthose posts then point to that thread saying "See see! Look at all the complaints!". You should know that 90% of the people on this board will complain at the drop of a hat...Most of them do not even think of the effects a change will haveover-all, or in what ways this change will "really" affect them.
What I am saying is, if your going to use something in you argument, then please, know the problem in out and backwards..
Yes, because I have read what other classes have said about this and while I do not feel qualified to argue things like CoB, I can point to the postings people who DO have a problem have made. Unlike you, I do not profess to be an expert - I can simply tell you how this is going to affect me, and tell you my impressions of what others have said will be their issues.
As I have said, ad nauseam, the part of this change that worries ME personally THE MOST is the fact that I play during off-hours and am no longer going to have the option of visiting an AFK doctor or entertainer when there is no other choice available. You cannot solve that with a script
I play in off-peak hours as well...I work second shift. I know two entertainers and more then a few docs who play at my time...I am actually friends with them
I still have those ties, therefor I almost always have acess to buffs, when I need them. This is what people need to do....You *need* to make friends and associations with people who play at your time...It is more difficult for us night owls, but its very possible.
Also, as I said before, you *will* find more docs/entertainers actually playing in off peak hours after this goes live. Many who do not buff will start because you will now require their services, instead of using the local night time buff bot. It may not be as easy as it is now, but at least you will be interacting with *people* and not buff bots.
If Ican do it, then you can. I play on tarq, and being one of the "newer" servers the population is rather low, so I know it can be hard, but it is possible. Besides, I did a mage too 65 in EQ, mostly playing a 2am EST (Damn over-time)...And in that game you need 4 or 5 people for *anything*...So, I guess this game seems rather lax in that area..
My experience has been very different, as it will be between both individuals and servers. There are some times where it is NOT possible, in spite of having entertainers on your friend list.
. Please go back to the first page of this post and read what Smuggler_Caylin, J3ster, and Tanks have had to say about how this impacts them and their professions. The only people I see that are fully, 100% for this change are entertainers.
Again, in recent days I have been on the smuggler and BH as well as the GCW forum....I know the faction buying issue with smuggler, but this is an interface problem, which again, can be helped with a long script. Yes, its annoying, but its something that has needed attention for a while.
I know all the BH issues back and front
As for the GCW, I am an avid poster on there too...
All in all, I try to verse myself well in *anything* I support...If I am going to argue for or against something then I want to make sure that I know it inside and out...I do have a slight advantage being that I am a speed reader
Your backhanded attempts at insults are really lost on me. This isn't about being "correct", it's about sharing our opinons on how WE play the game, and how other people are expressing their opinions. Unlike you, I do not think I know everything, nor would I be pompous enough to assume that I could. I simply can tell you how I feel about the situation, what my prior experience of playing this game for going on 18 months now is, and what I am reading on these boards and hearing about in-game fromother players. I'm not trying to "win" an argument, I am trying to get you to understand that "your mileage may vary", and finally that, like many other people I don't see this solving the problems that it is meant to.
The reason I reference other peoples postings is because, again, unlike you, I do not know it all, and when I see correspondents I respectsaying that they also agree that this isn't the cure-all that some of you believe, that it's not going to reduce the exploiting it's only going to reduce the responsible uses of macros, I have to believe that I can't be entirely naive about the issues as you'd like to postulate.
So, I'm glad you think this is best for the game and it will make Entertainers happy. More power to you. I don't think it will, and all it will do is reduce what time I spend combatting, and hopefully I will find some other part of the game to play. I am worried about other players, but I am not here to fight their battles for them; I have clearly expressed my reasons for thinking this change is wrong, one voice of many. I do not presume to have the absoulte answer, but I can say that I have a very bad feeling about this...
AO
Message Edited by Taewyn on 08-04-2004 06:04 AM
Oqua
Wed Aug 04, 2004 4:25 am
#63
Also, to add to that point...
Doctors have limitations in stopping saturation of said market...they have to craft buff packs, where as dancer/musician bots have an "unlimited" supply (hence leading to possible saturation by bots).
A doctor would have to stop/limit in some way shape or form, due to them having a "cost" to their buffs...where as entertainers don't.
*** Would have edited it in to the last post, but where as I only post when I feel extremely necessary, I don't have an edit button *mock pout*
Oqua
Wed Aug 04, 2004 4:35 am
#64
Your backhanded attempts at insults are really lost on me. This isn't about being "correct", it's about sharing our opinons on how WE play the game, and how other people are expressing their opinions. Unlike you, I do not think I know everything, nor would I be pompous enough to assume that I could.
I know this was you responding to Tae's post, but I have to point out the irony and hypocrisy in you saying this to him.
I merely said help us fix our class (in my initial post in this thread). Keep macros and get rid of the bots....
This caused both you and Hawk to tell me I was "wrong" in surmising that this was the "downfall" of my class.
I countered by saying "okies, then maybe that was your experience, but you will see that many entertainers have had negative ones (with bots). What did you proceed to do at that point?
Tell me again that I was, um, what was the word...oh yes, wrong.
Not only that, but you proceeded to insult me (no "attempting") and call me ignorant to other classes, seeing only the inside of a cantina, and naive.
Take your own advice oh, proverbial pot.
AudioOrgana
Wed Aug 04, 2004 4:35 am
#65
Oqua wrote:
"Unlike you", I am trying to see this from "all" angles...not just me, myself, and I. I read what everyone says, again...dont' get rid of macros...just get rid of the bots/zombies. Other then purely selfish "I can't get what I want when I want" what other else does this do to the "community" at large? And what in heavens name did you do before buffs? If I remember correctly, I didn't have the ability to buff for quite a while.
This is NOT just about buffs, it's also about mind-healing in general.
What you say above completely contradicts everything else you say. You say you see it from all angles, and I am seeing it from my own profession and from what I understand is the experience of many others. You are only looking at the impact to ONE set of three professions, a tiny portion of the game.
It's all about how horrible you believe your profession is, and I believe this change will spread the misery. As I said above, I'd campaign to bring you guys up, not bring everyone else down, but that's just me.
This is not the right time for this change.
AO