Dancer Archive
Thread: Inspirations and Bots: Time Investment
Esharra
Wed Apr 06, 2005 7:03 am
#66
It's a player idea.
Upia wrote:
I've missed smth...
What is all this talk about an NPC manager? Is it a player idea or smth the devs have come up with?
Ravanne_Esi
Wed Apr 06, 2005 7:08 am
#67
No one should be able to get a buff from an entertainer without paying for it.
I've worked RL as a dancer and if a customer wanted more than to just watch the "base" dance he paid for it. He paid me, I danced for him, a very simple concept. If anyone wants a buff they should come up and ask for, I decide if I want to supply one and if so I targetthem and give it to them. They can pay me either thru a tip before i give the buff or thru a game interface enforcing payment but they do not get a buff unless they pay my asking price even if that price is zero. This is the way things work RL, this is the way things work for any other profession that supplies a product or service in the game, what is so hard about applying this simple concept to us?
Doriana
Wed Apr 06, 2005 8:37 am
#68
For me it's never been an issue of tips. Tips follow from respect -- if people respect you they will naturally want to tip you, that's why I'm pretty much against any form of forced salary or payment. People don't respect AFK macroers and they've learned over the past 2 years that "all" entertainers are either currently AFK or will soon be AFK, and hence deserve no respect.
That's also why I still believe that the ONLY thing we need is AFK removal, because AFKing is the number one reason why we have no respect. There will, of course, still be some people who don't respect us. And there will still be some people who hate us. There always has been. But once you remove the majority the rest becomes tolerable and easy to ignore. Remove AFK and we can rebuild our respect and have a chance of earning it again
Panthu -- please don't stop talking to us
I understand the devs don't know what to do with us. But when are they going to decide??? If they can't come to a consensus why don't they sit down and look at what those of us who actually play (not AFK) the profession have become, left on our own, and go with that?? If they can't decide what they want us to be why can't they help us be what WE want us to be?
I just can't fathom that we haven't suggested enough fixes for this. I've seen things from the very simplistic entertainer window (and you all know that's my favorite -- just a widnow, shows who's watching you, who's watching group, has unmacroable 'heal' and 'buff' button next to their name, they want buff you click, assume everyone wants heals, voila) to extreme complex things that would make us jump through hoops just to heal 1 point of BF, and everything in between. But the devs need to just decide on something. At this point I'm joining the crowd -- as long as it removes AFKers I can deal with just about anything, and can adapt to just about anything. As long as....
That's also why I still believe that the ONLY thing we need is AFK removal, because AFKing is the number one reason why we have no respect. There will, of course, still be some people who don't respect us. And there will still be some people who hate us. There always has been. But once you remove the majority the rest becomes tolerable and easy to ignore. Remove AFK and we can rebuild our respect and have a chance of earning it again
Panthu -- please don't stop talking to us
I understand the devs don't know what to do with us. But when are they going to decide??? If they can't come to a consensus why don't they sit down and look at what those of us who actually play (not AFK) the profession have become, left on our own, and go with that?? If they can't decide what they want us to be why can't they help us be what WE want us to be?
I just can't fathom that we haven't suggested enough fixes for this. I've seen things from the very simplistic entertainer window (and you all know that's my favorite -- just a widnow, shows who's watching you, who's watching group, has unmacroable 'heal' and 'buff' button next to their name, they want buff you click, assume everyone wants heals, voila) to extreme complex things that would make us jump through hoops just to heal 1 point of BF, and everything in between. But the devs need to just decide on something. At this point I'm joining the crowd -- as long as it removes AFKers I can deal with just about anything, and can adapt to just about anything. As long as....
Groovymarlin
Wed Apr 06, 2005 9:00 am
#69
I'd just like to know where the dev who came up with this "Inspiration Buff" proposal got the idea to make the entire process passive. Why do they think that's a good idea? It seems the majority of entertainers who have responded to the In Concept thread call that out as the first thing that's wrong with the idea. The other thing most cited being that novice entertainers with zero skill boxes can give the same buff as a master dancer or musician, albeit taking longer to do so.
What is the reasoning behind either of those wacky concepts?
What is the reasoning behind either of those wacky concepts?
Ravanne_Esi
Wed Apr 06, 2005 11:17 am
#70
Groovymarlin wrote:
I'd just like to know where the dev who came up with this "Inspiration Buff" proposal got the idea to make the entire process passive. Why do they think that's a good idea? It seems the majority of entertainers who have responded to the In Concept thread call that out as the first thing that's wrong with the idea. The other thing most cited being that novice entertainers with zero skill boxes can give the same buff as a master dancer or musician, albeit taking longer to do so.
What is the reasoning behind either of those wacky concepts?
They are doing it this way because it takes the least amount of effort on their part.
They get to say they did something for entertainer, the rest of the professions go "great, we get inspration buffs"and think we were given something of value and they have to do the bare minimum of coding to put it in place. Its pretty obvious that they have put almost no effort into considering the ramifacations of this idea, so why should they put any more effort into the actual implementation?
Anoewyn
Wed Apr 06, 2005 12:33 pm
#71
Chessack wrote:
Hmm... I have been thinking about this a bit.
One thing people seem split on is passive/active.
Another thing is that the difference between a novice entertainer and a full master is time... and nothing else. And the time differential is not all that big, as I understand it -- 5 or 10 minutes vs. 1 minute. That means in terms of skill boxes, you aren't getting much of an increase per box.
I have a solution that may fix this problem AND solve the "empty skill branch" problem in the elite trees.
Have TECHINQUES lines reduce the amount of time it takes. Ents do not get tech, so keep it at 5 minutes through the base prof. Give novice dancers/musicians -30 seconds, then -30 seconds buff time per box you go up. You are getting faster with the techniques, all fine.
Then have the entertainer healing boxes and the formerly mind wound healing boxes give you something else -- buff variety. You'd need 6 buffs for entertainer (1 at novice, 4 for the boxes, and 1 special one at master), and you'd then need maybe 6 for dancer/musician (1 at novice, 1 for each box, and 1 special one at master). So for example:
Novice entertainer -- buffs base artisan experimentation
Ent Heal 1 - buffs medical crafting
Ent Heal 2 - buffs (general) combat xp
Ent Heal 3 - buffs medical healing
Ent Heal 4 - buffs harvesting (or scouting xp perhaps)
Master Ent - buffs survival xp
(Notice, Ents are buffing the base profs because they are a base prof.)
Novice Dancer/Musician - Buffs faction points
Dance/Music Enhancements 1 - buffs melee combat xp types (fencer, unarmed, etc).
Dance/Music Enhancements 2 - buffs ranged combat xp types
Dance/Music Enhancements 3 - buffs medical xp types (BE, Doc, CM)
Dance/Music Enhancements 4 - buffs elite crafting experimentation types (architect, chef, etc)
Master Dance/Music - buffs DNA sampling, crafting XP gain, etc.
Now we have our skill line back, it is useful, and a master is able to give all the possible buffs. A lower character can give a perfectly fine buff in the areas they are trained in, but not in the areas they aren't.
By the end you will have us able to buff and be useful to every profession, and this also fixes the problem of the missing skill line -- it adds content (technique remains as it has been the line concerned with the time of the buff) and this one gives us new things to buff each time we level.
I think this or something like it would work and would alleviate the "a novice is as good as I am, only slower" problem.
C
I have always liked this kind of idea, and is the exact thing I was chatting about ingame with a few other ents, that we would be able to inspire different skills, and that it would requireinteraction from both the entertainer (meaning they cannot be solely AFK unless they want to limit their market, by which - what would that point be?)and their patron to deal out what kind of bonus they are looking for. Nice work
Ikewe
Wed Apr 06, 2005 1:10 pm
#72
I think there are any number of reasons the Design Concept for the Inspiration Buff included making the buff passive. Just off the top of my head:
1) this was an opportunity for them to scrap the buff coding which we were told was a nightmare to delve into
2) they "bought" the whole patrons resent us because we can hold thier buffs hostage argument
3) they wanted to reduce the "invite me for a buff" spam in the cantinas
4) they thought making them completely passive would solve the "I can't find an entertainer willing to buff me" complaint - also ties in with making the buffs possible at novice level
5) further down the road they plan to introduce an actual role for the entertainers
And those are just quickly off the top of my head so the possibilites might include pages more. I think the devs just underestimated how much we valued having an active support/service role. To me it'sseemed fairly obvious more and more that their overall image of the entertainer professions was that the majority of us were happy simply "being there". They didn't realise we wanted to "be there" with an active function. Perhaps I am off the mark but if I were a dev and came here to the forum I could certainly get that impression from certain posts. They can't possibly have the time to read all the posts so if they are skimming the posts it's quite possible for them to get what I would consider the wrong impression (I'll stress here that I know there are entertainers who do fit that description, I'm just pointing out that there aremany who do not).
So while it's easy to think or say "what the hell were they thinking?" I certainly don't think they thought "Let's stick it to the entertainers by introducing this great idea and then really borking the implementation".
Mystyrys
Wed Apr 06, 2005 1:26 pm
#73
/whisper I have a bad feeling about this...
Rumors, whispers, clues, foreseeing the future...?
Superstar
|
Master Image Designer-- Master Musician -- Master Dancer -- Master Performance Artist
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ID 1-4 -- Musician 1-4 -- Dancer 1-4 -- Performance Artist 1-4
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Master Entertainer
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ID 1-4 -- Musician 1-4 -- Dancer 1-4 -- Performance Artist 1-4
|
Novice ID -- Novice Musician -- Novice Dancer -- Novice Performance Artist
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Novice Performer
|
(Techniques/Instrument Crafting/Other?)
Esharra
Wed Apr 06, 2005 1:37 pm
#74
Probably best to put the crystal ball away. Our feedback to the devs is getting a response. I regret that I have no additional information to offer at this time.
Mystyrys wrote:
/whisper I have a bad feeling about this...
Rumors, whispers, clues, foreseeing the future...?
Mystyrys
Wed Apr 06, 2005 1:40 pm
#75
Esharra wrote:
Probably best to put the crystal ball away. Our feedback to the devs is getting a response. I regret that I have no additional information to offer at this time.
Mystyrys wrote:
/whisper I have a bad feeling about this...
Rumors, whispers, clues, foreseeing the future...?
*gets in Happy Dance ready mode*
Doriana
Wed Apr 06, 2005 1:47 pm
#76
hugs for esh for taking to heart "tell us anything, even if it's 'I can't really tell you specifics'" 
Groovymarlin
Wed Apr 06, 2005 2:58 pm
#77
Esharra wrote:Perhaps because the process for healing mind wounds and BF has been passive.
Groovymarlin wrote:
I'd just like to know where the dev who came up with this "Inspiration Buff" proposal got the idea to make the entire process passive.
Ah...so the "inspiration buff" is meant not to take the place of mind buffs, but to take the place of mind wound healing? We get inspiration "increase" instead of healing mind wounds, and nothing to replace the mind buff.
An interesting way to think of it. To be sure, some players DO tip entertainers for healing their battle fatigue and mind wounds, they're just less common than the players who tip for a buff.
If this is the case I don't think they should call it a buff because that just gets everyone wrapped around the axle. I think what would reassure many of us is to know that battle fatigue will still accrue and have a significant impact on combat, versus what's happening in the CU test now - BF is amazingly slow to accrue and negligible in effect.
Kareann
Wed Apr 06, 2005 5:36 pm
#78
Groovymarlin wrote:
Esharra wrote:Perhaps because the process for healing mind wounds and BF has been passive.
Groovymarlin wrote:
I'd just like to know where the dev who came up with this "Inspiration Buff" proposal got the idea to make the entire process passive.
Ah...so the "inspiration buff" is meant not to take the place of mind buffs, but to take the place of mind wound healing? We get inspiration "increase" instead of healing mind wounds, and nothing to replace the mind buff.
An interesting way to think of it. To be sure, some players DO tip entertainers for healing their battle fatigue and mind wounds, they're just less common than the players who tip for a buff.
If this is the case I don't think they should call it a buff because that just gets everyone wrapped around the axle. I think what would reassure many of us is to know that battle fatigue will still accrue and have a significant impact on combat, versus what's happening in the CU test now - BF is amazingly slow to accrue and negligible in effect.
Exactly, don't eveyone be relieved that we still have BF. I've played a few times on TC and am up to pistols 3, I have no BF and no wounds of any kind.