Dancer Archive

hm. You are aware that you are necro-posting?

PS: Well ok, there were some new replies. /sigh

Message Edited by Rabenschwinge on 07-13-2005 11:28 PM

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Lifere wrote:

u no longer need to Group to get a buff.

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My 2 cents

It's a moot point. The Macro functions are deeply rooted into much of SWG. There is no way to keep people from doing this. You can make it hard for a time.. but they will figure out ways around it.. and it's the same for all Professions not just entertainer and not just SWG.

As to for or against.. niether, as alot of servers u can hardly find one to get a buff from.. and u no longer need to Group to get a buff. No more BF.. Fewer Entertainers.

I say stop whining about stupid stuff that can be ignored. Getting the Bugs fixed is an issue that should be being addressed. More Focus discussions per profession, less complaining and more people working to make things better instead of just whining about everything.

90% of the Bug threads are total crap messages. Who cares who "First Post." How can anyone wonder the devs have a hard time answering/posting about real issues, and when they do they get blasted with others whining.

well that's more then 2 cents, ah well..

Message Edited by NeillM on 07-14-2005 01:24 PM

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NeillM wrote:

Just a thought but when publish 20 goes live there will no longer be any excuse to be a AFK "Entertainer" in public, since you will be able to grind it without any interaction with the rest of the server populance.

This would in my opinion make anyone who still AFKs in public after this point a greedy, selfish, server resource wasting exploiters (well maybe not explotiers under the current ToS, but they are certainly exploiting the ingame macro system to gain benefits for doing nothing).

Hopefully because they no longer need to be their to grind it will turn people against the spamming AFKers who lag the Cantina's out, they are really no different to the AFK loot campers or the AFK Jedi grinders. If this change in attitude were to take place it would hopefully get rid of the AFKers and leave room for people who actually play the game to have plesant working conditions in the areas that people want to visit.

Maybe we should all start telling people who complain about the lag in Cantina's who they should blame... it might help turn people's opinions against the AFKers/

Message Edited by NeillM on 07-14-2005 01:24 PM

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hmmm. I believe even now the vast majority is just grinding, not buffbotting. As it has always been - with a few rare exceptions. (Simply because three or four buffbots were "enough" to supply everyone with mind buffs even when they still existed.

I don't think this will ever completely change. Grinding is the actual main theme. Somehow success is less who you are, but somehow how fast you grinded it. At least it is often this way. Even though there is no logical reason for it, there will always be some afk entertainers.

I don't believe buffbots will ever completely leave either. But the remanents will only be those who had already a second account and a buffbot during the climax of the "buffbot wars" shortly before this thread started - somewhen in May or April 2004. But looking at the situation even as it is now, I couldn't care less about those few who are there now. Taking BF away will break the spine of professional afk entertainers.

The people who come to the cantinas now either want entertainment - or visit the rebel recruiter in the back room. Inspiration buffs are hardly a reason, because those 10% extra XP, FP or crafting success rate are no more than you would have gotten if you spend your time grinding/crafting instead of walking to the cantina. You just don't have a disadvantage by visiting the cantina now and then.
I just hope the new inspirations will work a similiar way.

As far as I am grinding and professional afk entertainers are sometimes irritating, but hardly a problem; if you do not go to the one wrong cantina on a very populated server.

Thinking back, there had been some strategic mistakes during the time of the greatest problems with buffbots. By making it a "war" we just encouraged "the enemy". But now these times are over... if the new inspirations to come are chosen wisely.

So, if any buffbot owner reads this: Go ahead and set up your "buffbot" if you really think it is worth 15$ a month. You'll find out - at least with patch 20 and a month or two - it ain't. By the benchmark used for us in former times we are indeed worthless then. Time for our own benchmark. The entertainment we offer.

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Rabenschwinge wrote:

Time for our own benchmark. The entertainment we offer.

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NeillM wrote:
Maybe we should all start telling people who complain about the lag in Cantina's who they should blame... it might help turn people's opinions against the AFKers

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I checked my server last night, mos eisley had 5-6 entertainers in, a couple afk.. coronet had 100% afk entertainer presence, ok it was deserted apart from the one afk person.. naboo had 3 ents in, all atk.. mining outpost had 8 in, 1 atk.. i used to see far more afk entertainers (groups of up to 20) before the CU and the various ent nerf publishes.. The real problem seems to be the lack of entertainers around, we are a rare breed..

Ihareo in white, me in yellow

The problem is that none of the resons you provide come from an objective standpoint. All your reasons, while put inmature fasion come from a personal issue. You were hurt in some fashion, there for all AFK must be stopped. The reason I don't concider that rational is because you would punish an entire class of players for a problem that you experienced that may or may not have happened anyway if the same characters wereATK. Therefore, your reasons cannot be called in as evidence against AFKers. I draw the parallel to the painter community calling for Pablo Picasso's buisness licence to be removed because the art he sold was surreal and slapdash. They reasoned that he didn't create art, he just slapped the paint on and made a million, which he fully admitted to, however his pieces that were his 'true' art never sold untill after his death.

How is removing AFK a punishment to the class? Notice I did not say to end recursive macros. I just want the ability for AFK to removed by an auto time out...or anything really. I don't want it to happen one way specifically. In such an instance, the entire class isn't being punished, only the people that AFK.

As for the accusation that I am pro AFK, that is the exact responce category that keeps this community from acting as a whole. You have accused me of this based on the fact that I concider punishing an entire group for the actions of a few to be wrong, and that I don't find personal vedettas to be viable evidence. You are wrong. I do NOT approve of an AFK playstyle, or buffbots. But the problem is that I have yet to see a VIABLE, OBJECTIVE reason for them to be removed.

Irrelevant to the subject--but what I don't get is...if you think it's wrong...why do you keep arguing for it?

"Because we don't like them" That's called bigotry. Don't use that one.

"Because they take money away from ATK players" Ever hear of NINA? How about Aparthide? What are you saying here? Are you saying the live entertainers are discriminating against AFK? If so, I don't get the analogy.

"Because they spam" How about freedom of speech? It's annoying but it really doesn't have much to do with AFK, and I try not to use it as an argument. After all, there are a bunch of people who are ATK and put spam in their macros. It's a completely different issue.

"Because it's not fair" Define fair. Equitable to all parties? I dunno. All, I know is that it *is* unfair for people who aren't even playing the game to take away the enjoyment of the people who are. You disagree with this?

"Because they arent at the keyboard" SWG was designed with that in mind. And, they were wrong.

"Because they made us lose respect" We haven't been respected from day one. Maybe you haven't, but I have. And, I'm seeing a return of that respect now that they're gone.

"Because they're annoying" See bigotry. Don't think I used that one either.

The thing is folks, the ony valid reason we have come up with has been countered by the DEVs, and that is 'but they aren't at the keyboard'. But rather than come together and try to actually come up with a well thought out plan that makes everybody happy, we collectively screamed and stamped our feet and refused to budge that AFKers just need to be removed all together.

I believe that they should removed. However, I have made many posts trying to find some sort of compromise, such as with holovideos. And, I'm not sure what you mean by countered by the Devs. Does that mean they decided we were wrong? If so, I haven't yet seen a reasonable explanation why it should be in the game either.

And that's my point. We refused to adapt, and now we have been churned under. Not as retaliation by the DEVs, I'm sure, but churned under none the less.

I don't feel I've been churned under. I am having more fun as a dancer (and getting more respect) since before the holocraze. Why? AFK has been made useless. It kinda sucks that instead of simply making it illegal they decided to remove abilities. However, that was there choice, and they are the ones that decided to take the easy way out and refused to compromise. And, to be honest, I don't want to be able to provide services if they can be AFK'ed because I (and most live dancers) will never actually benefit from them.

Now, again, I'm not going to repeat everything I've said over the last two years regarding AFK and botting. However, I will say that I believe your first assumption is still wrong. And, I have given many objective reasons, some from other professions, some from other games...regardless, I've given many logical, tangible, unemotional reasons why AFK is harmful to ANY game. Not just us. Not just our profession. Not just this game.

If you don't believe it's harmful and don't feel my arguments are valid, there's nothing I can do about that. Either way, I will never fathom why you, as someone who by your own admission dislikes AFK, continues to go on this rampage to protect the ability to AFK, rather than trying to protect the integrity of the game.

And, it's all because you personally haven't heard a valid reason for it. Is it true that you believe that there is no difference in the game, your profession, your fun, your whatever enjoyment you get from the game, when there are afk'ers and when there aren't? Really?

cast my vote for ANTI afk/bots. I love my macros, I'm always atk, but there are some things that are just redundant that macros make very nice. So it's a hard thing, how do you get rid of afk/bots and still keep macros for the people atk that use them as they should be?

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TheLoneWolf wrote:

For sometime now I have read both sides of the arugments.

ATK's don't like AFK's. Plain and simple.

AFK's don't care because they KNOW they are not AFFECTING the ATK's gameplay.

That is the plain and simple truth of it.

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Pre-CU yes there were a buttload of AFK Entertainers. I used them. You used them (Don't deny it no one will believe you anyways if you do /grin).

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TheLoneWolf wrote:

AFK's don't care

Well, duh. We know that one. Why should you care about a profession you're not a part of? I don't really care too much about jedi after all.

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TheLoneWolf wrote:

There has not been a single valid arguement that I have found to date regarding WHY the ATK people dislike the AFK people.

You haven't read this thread then. Everything from creating disaffection with the people who followed the rules but weren't rewarded as well as the people who didn't, to cheapning the profession into nothing but AFK spammers, to undermining the "cost vs. reward" system for the entire game balance, to making it impossible for the people actually playing to have a purpose, to making the profession "about" buffs instead of about interacting with people.. It's all been discussed. If you are too mismatched for entertaining to understand that, you don't belong in a cantina because you don't understand what the point of entertaining is.
The point of entertaining is to create a social foundation in the game world to facilitate and encourage interaction between groups of players that otherwise would never meet as well as to give a purpose to social playstyle players. It is not to buff and it is not to heal. By focusing on "buff services" or "healing services" or really any of the artifical services added to drive the system, this removes the entire point of any social player actually wanting to play. Replacing the real person with an NPC gives a social player no game to play.

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TheLoneWolf wrote:

AFK Buffers are a unique thing to the game.

No they're not. DAOC was almost completely destroyed by them, just like SWG has been. Your macro is not special.

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TheLoneWolf wrote:
Those AFK Doctors receive emails DAILY from ATK Players saying one thing and one thing only. "Thank you for being here. It really helps me out."

When I was 3 years old, I wanted to have cake for breakfast. Every day. Lunch, too. But my parents knew better. They knew that if I ate nothing but cake, I would be unhealthy. So they told me no. It's the same principle here. Of course people WANT buffs that require no effort or cost and are always on. But the game wasn't designed that way, nor is it the "healthiest" choice for a character or for a guild. Sometimes you do someone a bigger favor by saying "No" than by giving in to every whim and whine. It's called responsibility.

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TheLoneWolf wrote:
They say that if you are at the keys then your an ATK Buffer.

That's BS. "They" also tell me that no one ever enjoys entertaining because ti's stupid. If you ever AFK buff (or as an ent, now, if you ever AFK publicly) you're a buffbot until you stop it permanantly. You can't say "I'm going to respect the profession on Teusdays but not on Wednesdays!" Goes back to the responsibility thing and taking responsibility for your actions (or inactions as the case may be).
It's a lifestyle choice, not a "what will I be today?" choice.