Dancer Archive
Thread: Sorry to burst your bubble.
Shock-N-Awe wrote:
Holy crap, you have public cantinas on your server in busy cities that DONT have buff botts?!?! Lmao, every major city on my server has one...some as many as 3 during peak hours.
That's odd, Chilastra has none on coronet and Bria has one amazing one in coronet and I have yet to see one anywhere else aside from player towns.
PhoenixStar wrote:
Drygo wrote:
PhoenixStar wrote:
Drygo wrote:
PhoenixStar wrote:
There is NO entertainer economy. Entertainers have always and always will be considered and treated as the bottom of the barrel as far as getting tipped or paid goes. Buff bots didn't cause that, before the rise of the machines there were many MANY cries from all entertainers about not getting any form of payment for anything. This you will just have to get over because it's always been like that. ALWAYS. If you say it hasn't then you seriously have not been paying attention. There has never been a time when it hasn't been this way. These buff bots did not cause that.
Wrong again, sweetie pie. Before the buffbots came en masse into the Cantinas, I made a crapload selling buffs.
I find that hard to believe since you are having so much trouble now and there are hardly any buff bots in public cantinas. If you could do it then, you can do it now, you need to try harder. I did it two hours ago...
Doesn't matter whether you believe it or not, it's true.
Well I did it two hours ago with no advertising, so it's untrue that you can't now because you can waltz right into a cantina and do it too. You choose not to. You run away because you see a few afkers who aren't even buffing anyone. You may see one buff bot, big deal. Try talking and having a conversation, then casually ask if they'd like a free buff, soon your name will get around and people will come to you in large numbers also providing a tip. That's business. You're not going to get it all at once just standing around or begging people to come get a buff from you when they don't even know you.
I already refuted this, no need for me to retype it.
It's your choice to socialize or not. Those of us in the cantina right now ARE socializing so you're wrong.
Ok....You need to come to tarq and see the "social" aspect...At any rate, if people do not have to socialize, they wont. However, if forced too, many people enjoy it. Which is why the presence of "buff" bots gives players the "choice" not too, which in the end hurts the game.
Social interaction is up to each person, all you have to do is type and hit enter. You choose not to just because you see some bots but there are quite a few live players around you talking in group chat. *gasp*
There are many diffrent answers to this...One being that the last 3 times I spoke to a "non afk dancer" I noticed that they were really afk, just without the tag.
Also, the spam is horrible...Many dancers do not put their tag up so they can get by the "afk filter"...So every 3 seconds I see "Dont forget to tip!!" "Invite me to the group if I am not in it!"..."invite me for a mind buff"...."Watch me, I need the exp!!".
Its not only horrible for trying to communicate, but it is also so immersion breaking (this game already has that on so many levels)...So yes, for *me* this is a killer on my social interaction.
There is NO entertainer economy. Entertainers have always and always will be considered and treated as the bottom of the barrel as far as getting tipped or paid goes. Buff bots didn't cause that, before the rise of the machines there were many MANY cries from all entertainers about not getting any form of payment for anything. This you will just have to get over because it's always been like that. ALWAYS. If you say it hasn't then you seriously have not been paying attention. There has never been a time when it hasn't been this way. These buff bots did not cause that.
Alot of points here.....
Entertainers complained *before* buffs were "beefed" up...Buffs, on a whole, were supposed to be the "item" you can sell. Unlike your "healing", which is a passive service so itdoes not have to be tipped for, the "buffs" have to be "actively" given...Meaning they can also be actively charged for...Doctors do it all the time, what makes you think dancers would not be able too?
However, after buffs were itnroduced, the "buff bots" quickly swallowed any profit that could be made from them...The market became saturated with AFK bots that could provide an ample amount of the service the players require....Why would anyone pay for this if they can get it for free?
So, as you can see, the buffs never got a chance to be "sold" like they were supposed too...While I agree an nice ID like interface would be cool, this is the first step before that to give the dancers a nice commodity.
Hello, it's already short always has been, it's just repetative and that's why people use macros. They aren't bypassing anything but tedious grinding which after you've done the same thing 100 times in a row it is definately going to feel like a grind. You didn't work for jack, sorry if you feel like you did something amazing by tapping a few buttons, but you didn't. The only thing looping macros do is let you free up your hands to chat, basically the game forces you to act like a bot hitting buttons in a certain order to gain a new skill. The macro is doing nothing different. No exploit or cheat. It's what you'd be doing without it, but SOE added it and it doesn't hurt anyone. If you feel like a sucker...well you had a system you could use, if you chose not to that's your business. If you had fun then it was a good thing, don't let your jealousy blind you?
Couple of things here..First off, I am not a dancer...I have a maxed out Jedi, as well as a Bounty hunter...I also have a 65 mage in EQ (and a full time job with a fiance too!)....So, jelousy is a non -issue..I am only conerned with the game....
Macros are extreamly *good*...However, macros that allow *AFK* are extremely bad, there is a large diffrence between the two...
Macros, on a whole, will cut down the tedious repition as well as allow for a higher, more meanigful level of interaction...I agree with you here.
But when those macros "over-take" game play, thenthey destroy that interaction, and bypass any "social" content that might have been gained. Most of the original dancers from launch, that I knew, met all their freinds when they were "grinding"...It was during that social interaction that many foundations for guilds, friends and communities were formed.
Now there are many problems facing that aspect of the game...Everything from rampent soloing, to these AFK bots....Inevitably people leave the game, once those people leave, if new social structures are not formed, then the game starts to die. If people are not forced to interact on some level (grouping, cantinas, whatever) they will not form these social bonds and therefor they will not have the desire to stay in game...
Ask any 65+ EQ toon, "Why do you stay in the game?"....They will say, "I stay for my friends and the people"....
Again, by allowing this, your destroying the fledging foundations of the game...Which has far reaching consequences throughout the rest of the game....
Edit: just some spelling mistakes
Message Edited by Taewyn on 08-02-2004 08:04 PM
Now this was considerably longer then it has taken me both times previously. The only variable in the two times has been...you guessed it...buffbots! *mock gasp* So yes, they do interfere with the aspiring performers time in the cantina that way. ) hopefully this will be the end of the argument. *sweetest of smiles* Thankies, and have a wonderful evening .Does this make logical sense in the real world? Kinda-not-really, because when a person is playing the guitar you can hear them whether they want you to or not. On the other hand, when you go to see a professional musician you pay AT THE DOOR, as everybody knows, before you get in. It also would at least parallel the doctor-patient interaction, because docs can't AFK /diagnose-and-heal-the-correct-attribute.
Removing looping macros will be a decisive stroke against AFK entertaining, but it will not quite be the coup de grace. I am happy to say that AFKers will be gasping like beached whales before long.
PhoenixStar wrote:What I'm seeing right now is a couple of people who agree trying to shut out those who don't agree so it sounds as if everyone here is in agreement. I don't back down from flames and flames are coming from both sides myself included. The more people try to shut out those who do not agree, the louder I'll get until both sides of the argument are heard and something we can all agree on occurs. Quick fixes do not fix anything and since this hasn't even had time to register with many, it's definately a quick fix. If it's such a good idea I'm sure they could wait and hear opinions from many before dumping it on us.
Phoenixstar, you have certainly changed your mind from when you were from what I can gather, fighting against the changes imposed on the Creature Handler profession. What happened between now and back then? You made a specific post about the "nerf whiners"; this was one of your paragraphs:
Pheonixstar wrote
Note: I do not mean that voicing your opinion is wrong at all. Voicing an opinion one time and going back to play the game is fine. Spamming, and rallying support to try and change the game to fit your own wants is wrong. The devs are trying to make the game appealing to the largest amount of people, not a small minority who visit the forums. Voice your opinion(s) and let the devs decide. If your opinions are valid, they shouldn't need the support of others, they should be able to support themselves and the devs will decide if they agree or not.
With that said, I'm going to retire from these forums. They take the fun out of the game for me. I only came to try and stop people from screaming nerf, but it's not going to stop. Hopefully the devs will continue to ignore the immature players, and will keep looking out for mature opinions that may improve gameplay for all. I'm having fun, and I hope everyone who intends to stay for the long haul is having fun too.
CLEARLY, the DEVS have AGREED with the entertainers. The devs have stated AFK play won't be supported! I'm sure SoE knows exactly how many accounts are alt accounts (simple db search, cmon now), and can tell you exactly how many of them run entirely AFK.
If you look, you'll find out how long removing AFK from our profession has been on the wish list, and you find so much written about why.
As you yourself once wrote,
1.You don't understand how the (creature handler) system works...I'm not going to bother explaining it again because you'll just ignore it and keep posting ignorance..
That's how I feel about all the "i won't be able to get buffed, buffbots don't hurt anyone" posts.
I don't post this to be inflammatory; i post this in the hope that you might see some small parallel with your own prior situation, and give entertainers a little benefit of the doubt regarding their views on a profession they do every time they log online.
Oh, and BTW, i do recognize the potential that player cities have, and would like to see a way for those cantinas to meet some of the need for entertainer services. However, nothing has harmed entertainers more then the ability to macro our whole profession.
Oqua wrote:
*sigh*
Sugar, no one is talking about macros being ebil or the debil.
What people are trying to say is this:
Macro's do affect others in a harmful way. For some reason you don't wish to acknowledge this. I don't know why, but you don't.
I personally don't mind people being afk...I really don't. I mean, it makes the game more fun to talk in group and practice dancing stuffies, but hey, I know some people just want in and out of the cantina (whatever floats your boat).
What I do mind is not being able to get into a group when I am trying to master a craft, and the group leaders are afk all day and all night. If you wish to loop that macro and be afk for hourson end, more power to you...just don't inhibit my gameplay please because of it.
What I do mind is a profession taking considerably longer to master atk because there are throngs of buffbots at the door who are eeking most of the healing xp.
You may wish to try actually putting yourself in someone elses shoes for once. Not all of us are on the galaxy you peruse (thank heavens *sweetest of smiles*). I recently remastered musician/dancer. It took me 2 in a half weeks, atk.
Now, you mentioned "go try harder because you just did it" in making tips as your undeniable, unarguable proof that buffbots haven't hurt the economy. Well, from looking at the numerous posts for the past month or so by many esteemed and seasoned veterens of the cantina, I find it very hard to believe that that is the reason they can't make tips...don't you? In fact, you saying that smites of rudeness and arrogance on your part...which is something I know you weren't trying to convey at all, right?
When I was in the cantina those two in a half weeks do you know how many tips I got? Four...and three by the same man, Prosnow. He would come in every so often and look for an atk performer to chat with for a moment and tip. Do you know how tips were when I first mastered the dance? I use to get about 50-70K per dancing session, and that wasn't playing 24/7 either. So please...don't tell me they haven't interfered or impacted the economy for performers.
Again, maybe you have had a different experience then others have. Hooray for you if thats the case. But lets face it sugar, from my own experience and many others...most buffbots are there for selfserving purposes. That has nothing to do with better content, or any other hoohah you tried to say here. What that does have to do with is the plain and simple fact that they are interfering with many peoples gameplay.
They are impacting the game in a negative way.
Before you try and say thats from a "dancers" stilted perspective...think again. My bebe is a fighter with many of his characters (one crafter) and I have my own little fighter lady. I do know what its like to look for buffs in the middle of the night (where is that darn doctor buffbot when I need it? *sardonic smile*).
I am looking at it from all different viewpoints...just not a selfish one. Perhaps you should do the same?
***side note*** since you have been yawning profusely and announced Taewyn the winnah (he is good at pwning yes?
Again with the "we're all right and you're wrong" bs, buff bots are not doing any of those things to you. I have no trouble getting groups at anything in the game be it combat or entertainer groups. I'm in an entertainer group right now teaching people when they need it, they're not all afk and most of us are talking. How can you tell me what I need to acknowledge if you won't do the same? There are many more advantages to looping macros that goes beyond entertainers(you all keep saying dancers because you're thinking only of yourself and no other professions), maybe you aren't checking other forums but this is effecting many and they're not all in agreement. I obviously am looking at this from ALL viewpoints because the majority of the fighters HATE and I do mean HATE this idea, as do all of the crafters. This won't event effect me all that much aside from making me redo my macros.
PS: Saying things like "pwning" makes you sound like a 12 year old kiddie, so I'd watch it with the insults(especially when I haven't said anything to you)if you're going to make yourself sound immature at the same time. Just because a few of you might be friends or whatever and decide to defend each other, doesn't mean you represent the majority, it just means you are good at ganging up on someone on a forum to try and push for something to meet your own goals. People like you ruin games by ganging up and posting random complaints to further yourselves for personal gain.
This time it's "all macros are bad because buff bots are stealing tips from dancers"... Next it'll be "People that offer buffs for free are making it impossible for dancers to make any money", or "Dancers should be able to kick people from cantinas because they hit on us". If this thread really bothered you, you wouldn't have replied.
Erawia_D wrote:
PhoenixStar wrote:
What I'm seeing right now is a couple of people who agree trying to shut out those who don't agree so it sounds as if everyone here is in agreement. I don't back down from flames and flames are coming from both sides myself included. The more people try to shut out those who do not agree, the louder I'll get until both sides of the argument are heard and something we can all agree on occurs. Quick fixes do not fix anything and since this hasn't even had time to register with many, it's definately a quick fix. If it's such a good idea I'm sure they could wait and hear opinions from many before dumping it on us.
Phoenixstar, you have certainly changed your mind from when you were from what I can gather, fighting against the changes imposed on the Creature Handler profession. What happened between now and back then? You made a specific post about the "nerf whiners"; this was one of your paragraphs:
Pheonixstar wrote
Note: I do not mean that voicing your opinion is wrong at all. Voicing an opinion one time and going back to play the game is fine. Spamming, and rallying support to try and change the game to fit your own wants is wrong. The devs are trying to make the game appealing to the largest amount of people, not a small minority who visit the forums. Voice your opinion(s) and let the devs decide. If your opinions are valid, they shouldn't need the support of others, they should be able to support themselves and the devs will decide if they agree or not.
With that said, I'm going to retire from these forums. They take the fun out of the game for me. I only came to try and stop people from screaming nerf, but it's not going to stop. Hopefully the devs will continue to ignore the immature players, and will keep looking out for mature opinions that may improve gameplay for all. I'm having fun, and I hope everyone who intends to stay for the long haul is having fun too.
CLEARLY, the DEVS have AGREED with the entertainers. The devs have stated AFK play won't be supported! I'm sure SoE knows exactly how many accounts are alt accounts (simple db search, cmon now), and can tell you exactly how many of them run entirely AFK.
If you look, you'll find out how long removing AFK from our profession has been on the wish list, and you find so much written about why.
As you yourself once wrote,
1.You don't understand how the (creature handler) system works...I'm not going to bother explaining it again because you'll just ignore it and keep posting ignorance..
That's how I feel about all the "i won't be able to get buffed, buffbots don't hurt anyone" posts.
I don't post this to be inflammatory; i post this in the hope that you might see some small parallel with your own prior situation, and give entertainers a little benefit of the doubt regarding their views on a profession they do every time they log online.
Oh, and BTW, i do recognize the potential that player cities have, and would like to see a way for those cantinas to meet some of the need for entertainer services. However, nothing has harmed entertainers more then the ability to macro our whole profession.
1) I really must ask this, is there something wrong with you? You seriously went back and read my posts from the first month of the game? That's just creepy.
2) Don't ask me how something I posted a year ago relates to a totally different issue today, I'm not even going to read it. The fact that you did that makes me sick to my stomach, I feel like I'm dealing with one of those net stalkers. I know there's a find all posts link, but seriously to take the time and sift through them to try to use a year old post against me. That's just creepy. Next you'll find my name and tell me you're coming to my house right? Ugh. Please don't reply to me again, seriously.
SWG has the "potential" to be the best MMO out there...Simply because it has an element to apeal to *all* gamers....Socials (Entertainers)..Achievers (high end content, such as the DWB or NS's) Killers (PvP) and Explorers (Lots of codes/specials to figure out)...
Each of this points is broken at some level...I will break them down...
- Social (the one we are discussing): This level of interaction is broken on a whole because *no one* is there. Many times people do not have to go to a live entertainer because a buff/heal bot is waiting for them. This, on a whole, destroys the "need" or desire for many social players to take up this profession. AFK buff bots take out the "social" middle man, no speaking, just in and out...
- Achiever: This aspect is broken because most high end content is soloed....This has gotten slightly better with NPCs using specials, however, on many levels its broken. The high end content is so out of whack that either its almost "impossible" or its "extreamly easy"..Either way, no one will group up and waste time to do it...This again, destroys social interaction on another level....The great "combat nerf" should help alot with this. (btw I am a strong advocate of being able to solo-grind.....But the high end content thing is killing the game)
- Killer: Ahh yes, PvP is often thought to be one of the most "anti-social" aspects of gaming...However, "Team PvP" is extreamly social...The GCW is one of the most social aspects of the game. Now however, with combat and the GCW so broken, many people do noteven PvP. Again, another aspect of the game is ruined sadly.
- Explorer:Probably the least social...Nothing is really broken here that hurts them *except* for high end content...With no "guild" or "group" to gain info about a dungeon or weapon for, the explorer fades away into uselessness...This can only be fixed by fixing achiever/killer...
So no, its not "all" about buff bots...there are *alot* of things wrong with this game...But I would say 25% of the problems stem from buff bots...Player cities, guilds and even friends lists are shrinking because the game is a wasteland...Partially because of buff bots and partially because of the other things....
Now, many combat changes (nerf) are on the way tofix this....This is just another *part* of that problem...They *all* need to be fixed
Message Edited by Taewyn on 08-02-2004 09:56 PM
PhoenixStar wrote:
Erawia_D wrote:
PhoenixStar wrote:
What I'm seeing right now is a couple of people who agree trying to shut out those who don't agree so it sounds as if everyone here is in agreement. I don't back down from flames and flames are coming from both sides myself included. The more people try to shut out those who do not agree, the louder I'll get until both sides of the argument are heard and something we can all agree on occurs. Quick fixes do not fix anything and since this hasn't even had time to register with many, it's definately a quick fix. If it's such a good idea I'm sure they could wait and hear opinions from many before dumping it on us.
Phoenixstar, you have certainly changed your mind from when you were from what I can gather, fighting against the changes imposed on the Creature Handler profession. What happened between now and back then? You made a specific post about the "nerf whiners"; this was one of your paragraphs:
Pheonixstar wrote
Note: I do not mean that voicing your opinion is wrong at all. Voicing an opinion one time and going back to play the game is fine. Spamming, and rallying support to try and change the game to fit your own wants is wrong. The devs are trying to make the game appealing to the largest amount of people, not a small minority who visit the forums. Voice your opinion(s) and let the devs decide. If your opinions are valid, they shouldn't need the support of others, they should be able to support themselves and the devs will decide if they agree or not.
With that said, I'm going to retire from these forums. They take the fun out of the game for me. I only came to try and stop people from screaming nerf, but it's not going to stop. Hopefully the devs will continue to ignore the immature players, and will keep looking out for mature opinions that may improve gameplay for all. I'm having fun, and I hope everyone who intends to stay for the long haul is having fun too.
CLEARLY, the DEVS have AGREED with the entertainers. The devs have stated AFK play won't be supported! I'm sure SoE knows exactly how many accounts are alt accounts (simple db search, cmon now), and can tell you exactly how many of them run entirely AFK.
If you look, you'll find out how long removing AFK from our profession has been on the wish list, and you find so much written about why.
As you yourself once wrote,
1.You don't understand how the (creature handler) system works...I'm not going to bother explaining it again because you'll just ignore it and keep posting ignorance..
That's how I feel about all the "i won't be able to get buffed, buffbots don't hurt anyone" posts.
I don't post this to be inflammatory; i post this in the hope that you might see some small parallel with your own prior situation, and give entertainers a little benefit of the doubt regarding their views on a profession they do every time they log online.
Oh, and BTW, i do recognize the potential that player cities have, and would like to see a way for those cantinas to meet some of the need for entertainer services. However, nothing has harmed entertainers more then the ability to macro our whole profession.
1) I really must ask this, is there something wrong with you? You seriously went back and read my posts from the first month of the game? That's just creepy.
2) Don't ask me how something I posted a year ago relates to a totally different issue today, I'm not even going to read it. The fact that you did that makes me sick to my stomach, I feel like I'm dealing with one of those net stalkers. I know there's a find all posts link, but seriously to take the time and sift through them to try to use a year old post against me. That's just creepy. Next you'll find my name and tell me you're coming to my house right? Ugh. Please don't reply to me again, seriously.
I'm not joking, you've seriously disgusted me. I don't know if you did that to knowingly disturb me but that is seriously just wrong.
Nice deflection board tactic. Obvious ... but a good one. The 'sick to my stomach' part was a little overly dramatic though.
Just because the person clearly uncovered you for being a hypocrite, doesn't make the person 'creepy'. You should read what you wrote and take your own advice.
::::: waits for more back peddle denials and pulls out the popcorn :::::::
Please - continue. This is fascinating lol.
Its the exact same thing I do as an entertainer. I read peoples bios in /examine, and talk to them about what they've been doing in the galaxy. Making connections, being social, its what entertainers all about... "hey, I see you've been to the queen's lake? what's it like? Haven't been there yet myself.. can't get an audience with the queen to ask her..."
I *do* look at other professions and learn about them. As I've said in another of my posts, i think entertainers can fill an 'infomation' repository function, go to them for questions... I think about the overall playability all the time. In recent days I've found its been useful to get beyond the gut reaction people post to see where they're coming from, more then just the 'wah, i want my free buffs' that gets posted on these forums. Quite honestly, I actually read all of 4 (count them, four) of your posts. Just look for the 1-stared or 5-stared ones, the ones that really set people off. Its just another tool to collaborate, nothing more, nothing less.
And if you can't see the parallel of one profession trying to defend itself against a vast majority of the other professions, then I really can't help you anymore then I've tried. Many players have written long and tirelessly about how buffbots damage the profession. If you're going to make the case that it's really player cities that has killed entertainers, perhaps you might look through some old posts yourself and address the problems attributed to the existance of buffbots that have already been raised many times within the entertainer communities?