Dancer Archive
Thread: An end to the plague but-
Panthu wrote:
HalasterTheBlack wrote:
Sure fooled me with your rabid support of an otherwise dismally bad idea.
Panthu wrote:
You are 100% wrong. You do not know what you are talking about. This is not what we proposed and I am tired of us being the scapegoats here. The "solutions" for the lack of Ent Healers during off peak times that might happen are absolutely awful for us. This was not an Entertainer Request. Ask the Devs. Ask the Devs why they have decided to do this over one of our Dancer Proposals that would have improved the game for us and made our healing and buffing more accessible for you.
Go ahead, ask them. Since you are so tight with them and all.
No, you must just be a fool. *shrug* I am happy to have this out in the open. I have been worried about it for weeks. I am happy to see so many Dancer Posters that I like happy, but I never supported the end of recursive macros. Never.
Message Edited by HalasterTheBlack on 08-04-2004 01:21 PM
SmedleyLlama wrote:
That still doesn't mean the largest cry that "something" be done by the devs didn't come from the Ents. Because it did. And ultimately, this probably wouldn't have come about had those cries not been heard. So I wouldn't claim complete innocence Panthu.
INNOCENCE?so because we've asked for our profession to be improved we are at fault for something the developers have chose to enact?
The way you word it it's as if we have commited some kind of a crime by wanting to be viable.
Dreamland wrote:
SmedleyLlama wrote:
That still doesn't mean the largest cry that "something" be done by the devs didn't come from the Ents. Because it did. And ultimately, this probably wouldn't have come about had those cries not been heard. So I wouldn't claim complete innocence Panthu.
INNOCENCE?so because we've asked for our profession to be improved we are at fault for something the developers have chose to enact?
The way you word it it's as if we have commited some kind of a crime by wanting to be viable.
SmedleyLlama wrote:
That still doesn't mean the largest cry that "something" be done by the devs didn't come from the Ents. Because it did. And ultimately, this probably wouldn't have come about had those cries not been heard. So I wouldn't claim complete innocence Panthu.
You can't make me feel bad about wanting to see Dancer improved. Yes, a large part of the proposals I've pitched have had something to do with making us more fun, profitable, and playable ATK over AFK... but that only has to do with the way our Profession has been designed, not the game's macro system at large.
Maybe I'll go post some of our proposals in TH's thread and you guys can point out to me wherethey ever called for any change to the game wide macro system. Give me a few minutes.
PoetDancer wrote:
A lot of trust has been lost on both sides of the stage. This is what its really about. The audience does not trust us to give them what they come to the cantina to get. We do not trust them to make sure we are taken care of in the cantina. And neither side is going to concede anything on the forums.
Indeed, it was words that caused this mistrust. Words on the part of the audience on these boards saying"I cannot get a buff unless from an unattended mule." Words like, "I don't even try to give the patrons a show because they'd rather I not be there at all." Both are demonstratably false, but you'd never know it if you take your cues from the forums.
And words soon spilled over into deeds. Players started acting on the attitudes displayed here. The forums informed their gameplay, not their gameplay informing their forum contributions. Both sides of this thing have understandable reasons to be resentful of the other, and both acted in ways that only institutionalized the mistrust.
Dancers and musicians started abandoning the well traveled venues because we were not going to pay homage to a system where our contribution was being not only ignored, but outright insulted by players who systematically hate that they even have to go to the cantina. And the more we tried to make the cantina fun for you while giving you the things you needed, the more you insulted us for trying to play this thing the way the developers wanted us to play it.
By the same token, we abandoned the venues and the players that needed us. Because of the few players who displayed their bitterness at the whole concept of these professions openly and without sanction, we took this as a sign that ALL players hated these professions being played. And this is simply not the case. So we started doing things that really never served your interest, like performing out of venue, or responding to calls for us to serve with "go get bent with Briha."
Soon we are going to be placed in a circumstance where we will have to trust eachother again. And words are not going to cut it. DEEDS will be more likely to build the trust. And it is going to take a little helping hand from everyone to make this work again like it did before. These are some things you all can do to build the trust:
Entertainers:
Start performing in the big venues again, even with the bots, just for a little bit each day. Start greeting customers. Do NOT get frustrated if they run to the bots. Do NOT get all flustered if they call you names or spew hatred toward you. Just take down their name and tags so you can talk about it with another guild member at a later time, or fill out a harassment /report if its something uncalled for. Do NOT get mad if they do not tip you. Do NOT get mad if they /puke, /spit, or brag to their friends how much of an idiot you are. If you have to vent, vent on your /ent channel or here. Do NOT vent in front of the customers. The purpose here is more to build trust and show the players that the galaxy will not fall apart. Its hard, I know, but we have to do it sooner or later. Remember what I always say, "You catch more kreetles with carbosyrup than sarlacc bile." Like it or not, players are going to do what they will do, and nobody can force them to like you or your contribution. They'll never admit to you why they are wrong, so do not even get into it with them on the cantina floor. Just brush it off and move on to the next customer. After all, "the show must go on."
Patrons:
When you see an entertainer trying to do this thing live, reward it. It doesn't matter if you are /watching or listening to him or her. It doesn't matter if you are mad at the developers that these professions are in the game. The fact is, they are. And its not up to you, or us for that matter, that they remain. If you see an effort made to play this thing live, /tip it. Even 50 credits will be enough to at least show that you noticed and appreciated players who do this thing. Remember, if we are in the cantina, we are not doing other income generating work. And if you cannot or do not want to /tip it, /cheer it. If your guild members are making fun of the live player, tell them to stop. It doesn't do your guild any good to spread ill will to anyone. I'm not saying you have to like what the entertainer is doing. They'll get better if they practice. But you have to give them time to start getting comfortable in the cantinas with players. Right now they aren't. And they are not because too many jerks feel like they can say or do whatever they feel like in the cantina and be called cool for doing it.
Now, can we both at leasttry to do these two simple things to rebuild the trust?
Your words of advice are wise, definitely. And I actually do all those things as both entertainer and audience, every time, all the time.
But what really needs to happen here to mend the fence is for Entertainers to stand up against this change as well. Because it really is a bad change for the game overall. And at the same time, I'm sure the rest of the community will stand up for new features that would enhance Entertainers' ingame experience.
Panthu wrote:
SmedleyLlama wrote:
That still doesn't mean the largest cry that "something" be done by the devs didn't come from the Ents. Because it did. And ultimately, this probably wouldn't have come about had those cries not been heard. So I wouldn't claim complete innocence Panthu.
You can't make me feel bad about wanting to see Dancer improved. Yes, a large part of the proposals I've pitched have had something to do with making us more fun, profitable, and playable ATK over AFK... but that only has to do with the way our Profession has been designed, not the game's macro system at large.
Maybe I'll go post some of our proposals in TH's thread and you guys can point out to me wherethey ever called for any change to the game wide macro system. Give me a few minutes.
That would be great Panthu.
In fact I would be thrilled if the Dancers and Musicians stood up in that thread and said,"Here are better ways to fix things!". Because right now I all I see is the majority of Ents just telling everyone how wonderful this is.
Panthu wrote:
SmedleyLlama wrote:
That still doesn't mean the largest cry that "something" be done by the devs didn't come from the Ents. Because it did. And ultimately, this probably wouldn't have come about had those cries not been heard. So I wouldn't claim complete innocence Panthu.
You can't make me feel bad about wanting to see Dancer improved. Yes, a large part of the proposals I've pitched have had something to do with making us more fun, profitable, and playable ATK over AFK... but that only has to do with the way our Profession has been designed, not the game's macro system at large.
Maybe I'll go post some of our proposals in TH's thread and you guys can point out to me wherethey ever called for any change to the game wide macro system. Give me a few minutes.
What you were or were not personally earning is not at issue here. Entertainers are not stupid. Had it been as lucrative as you suggest, they would have gone there, but for every story like yours, there's about 10 (that you've heard before) that contradict it. Please stop arguing this point, I will no longer respond to it. The people here know the score, and this is an extremely old argument, and you're beating a dead horse for no reason.
"Yes. But whacking looping macros is not the better solution. The better solution is to give ATK entertainers reasonably significant advantages over AFK entertainers."
Whacking the looping macros is not being done just for entertainers. It's being done for the good of the game overall. There are certainly things dancers would like to see added that give us extra value, but that is neither here nor there. Unattended gameplay in an online game is completely unnecessary and detrimental. If you wish to continue this discussion, do it on that point or not at all. I can sit here and list about half a dozen things that I've witnessed in this game alone that are detrimental and caused by unattended gameplay. I can't think of a single thing that people are whining about losing looping macros for that cannot be addressed in a far better way than a looping macro ever could. Can you?
SmedleyLlama wrote:
Sorry.. Didn't mean to offend you with my choiuce of words.I was simply replying to Panthus choice of the word "scapegoats". I chose innocent as in not having anything to do with the whole situation.
If I am wrong and you are angry about the Devs choice, I invite you to let them know. However, if this is something you approve of because it gives you what you asked for, then yes.. I would say you lack innocence in this matter.
I am not angry with the devs, I am happy that they are finaly taking interest in cleaning up the afk aspect of the game be that in any profession. That includes someone sitting in the middle of a spawn of meatlumps afk all day for combat xp.
We have been making it clear to them all along what we wantand continue to do so. I sent my PM to Thunderheart saying that carving out recursive macros alone wouldn't help because the afkers already have their 8 hour super macros waiting for when the change goes through.Theyhave been madeaware of this. And rest assured the corespondants are making them aware of allother issues as well. What they choose to do with our information is not in our power to decide.
Its frustrating when people come in here pointing fingers and pinning blame when they haven't even taken the time to inform themselves fully on the situation. The devs do not read these threads, they dont have time to wade through the pages and pages of insults and ignorance to try and get to the real issues, Thats why we have corespondants. When an entertainer has a bad day and comes in here to vent about how they hate buffbots it has no bearing on the devs descision at all because it just doesn't get read by them. The relavent issues and proposals from our corespondants do.
picklesSW wrote:
I can't think of a single thing that people are whining about losing looping macros for that cannot be addressed in a far better way than a looping macro ever could. Can you?
It is wonderful. Not just for us, for everyone. The game will be healthier and more vibrant because of it. Less lag, less spam, less exploiting, less resource hogging, less anti-social behavior. I'm sorry you don't see that, but someday you will.
picklesSW wrote:
"Incorrect again, homeslice. I was taking my own advice at the time. I consistently earned 100k or more in the first hour dancing on an adventure world"
What you were or were not personally earning is not at issue here. Entertainers are not stupid. Had it been as lucrative as you suggest, they would have gone there, but for every story like yours, there's about 10 (that you've heard before) that contradict it. Please stop arguing this point, I will no longer respond to it. The people here know the score, and this is an extremely old argument, and you're beating a dead horse for no reason.
"Yes. But whacking looping macros is not the better solution. The better solution is to give ATK entertainers reasonably significant advantages over AFK entertainers."
Whacking the looping macros is not being done just for entertainers. It's being done for the good of the game overall. There are certainly things dancers would like to see added that give us extra value, but that is neither here nor there. Unattended gameplay in an online game is completely unnecessary and detrimental. If you wish to continue this discussion, do it on that point or not at all. I can sit here and list about half a dozen things that I've witnessed in this game alone that are detrimental and caused by unattended gameplay. I can't think of a single thing that people are whining about losing looping macros for that cannot be addressed in a far better way than a looping macro ever could. Can you?
- Leveling the Survey branch of Artisan. I truly wonder how many Artisans sat at the keys with no stand/kneel macro all the way to Survey IV.
- Leveling any crafting branch of Artisan / every crafting profession. Ifcrafters had to click every freaking time that a macro clicks for them, their hands would fall off long before they got halfway to Master.
- Waiting on a Starship. Yeah. 9 minutes, 38 seconds. Of standing. With nothing to do. "Gotta pee, be right back." *later* "**edit**! Missed the shuttle, another 10 minutes".
- There's more, you can see them in the 102+ pages of TH replies, I'm not repeating them all here.
So to your point that it's detrimental and unnecessary, I'll concede that in a decently designed game, it's both. However, we do not have a decently designed game here. We have a tedious one with a few very shiny points.
So yes, I'm fine with removing looping macros. AFTER the devs remove the stupidity of the tedium of playing their game. Once the tedium is gone, I will agree that looping macros are both detrimental and unnecessary.
Now back off what you are trying to call the point for a moment and to the real point... I don't see a whole lot of artisans and combatants supporting this change. I *do* see a lot of Entertainers supporting this change. Judging by the responses, it's good for Entertainers and BAD for the game overall.