Dancer Archive

Honestly, I don't feel it will be so much "busy work" as just a couple flourishes at most,to set the proper buff to be applied.

But, of course, your entitled to your opinion, and I do very much appreciate your feedback, thanks.

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Esharra wrote:

Quoted from Warryyr's post on Musician forum:

The patron listens to Warryyr's music, and Warryyr targets the patron and types /setperform to begin the buffing process.

Warryyr performs Flourish 1. A System Message appears saying, "Use Flourish 8 to confirm application of a Melee enhancement."

Warryyr knows the patron is looking for a Rifleman buff, so he tries again. He performs Flourish 2. A System Message appears saying, "Use Flourish 8 to confirm application of a Crafting enhancement."

Nope, still not what he wants to apply.

He performs Flourish 3. A System Message appears saying, "Use Flourish 8 to confirm application of an Entertainer enhancement."

Fourth time's the charm - he performs Flourish 4. A System Message appears saying, "Use Flourish 8 to confirm application of a Ranged enhancement."

Bingo! Warryyr performs Flourish 8 to confirm this is the buff he'd like to apply. A System Message appears saying, "You begin to enhance the Ranged skills of %TT."

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Looks to me like it tells Warryyr what flourish he needs to perform in order to apply the buff the rifleman wants. Of course this is after having to go through several other choices (hope they're patient). Maybe you can point out to me what we're reading differently here.

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* Has disturbing vision of possible end result of such a sytem when actually implemented by devs ... *

[system message] Player Killz-a-lot has requested a buff from you. To perform a combat buff, please flourish #1. To perform a crafting buff, please flourish #2. To deny this request please flourish #3.

[player performs flourish #1]

[system message] You have selected
[system message] COMBAT BUFF
[system message] If this is correct, please flourish #1, otherwise please flourish #2.

[player performs flourish #1]

[system message] To perform a melee buff, please flourish #1. To perform a ranged buff, please flourish #2. To return to the previous menu, please flourish #3. To abandon the buffing process at any time, please flourish #8 or simply log out.

...

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Warryyr wrote:

Honestly, I don't feel it will be so much "busy work" as just a couple flourishes at most,to set the proper buff to be applied.

But, of course, your entitled to your opinion, and I do very much appreciate your feedback, thanks.

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Well, your buff giving idea would make some kind of "puppet on a string"entertainer out of us (do this .. do that ..) and that is something i do not want to be. Before we had the "mind buffs" in game, we only had BF healing and we did well with it. OK we had AFKs at that time to, but you will always have AFKs as long as it is possible to do entertainment AFK.

If you don't want to do anything but perform then don't. For those of us that DO want to have a tie to the game, a purpose, a usefulness beyond simply performing then for gosh sakes LET US. I'm so tired of every debate coming down to "your game of buffing is stopping my game of entertaining". The fact is it isn't but your game of only entertaining is definitely stopping my preferred game of being a useful addition to my guild and my friends. If you don't want to "mash buttons" or be "a puppet on a string" then simply don't do it but don't whine that my willingness to do it will ruin your game because it won't.

Quit being selfish and let them add some reason for those of us who feel simply being witty isn't enough. Warryr great idea and I hope those oppossed to any game beyond arranging flourishes for entertainment will let the rest of us have our game because it doesn't stop one of them from doing what they want.

Now what is this about battle fatique going away? I'm out of town two weeks and find that my primary character has zero reason to exist beyond hanging out with friends?

The one great thing about the Entertainer/Musician/Dancer professions is that you are free to do with it what you want, at any time, at any place. This is why so many bands pop up -- the entertainers as entertainers.

But functionally, without a reason for other people to come see us perform, we're relegated to only one aspect of the profession, and that's self-made performances.

Adding in buffs, no matter the usefulness overall, will give people a reason to see us aside from the somewhat infrequent special occasions.

However, as great as the idea is of using flourishes to apply any buffs is, it is ultimately too limited for future expansion (given that ents collectively have squawked since launch for additional songs, and we've gotten 3 so far. Adding flourishes in the future is so unlikely because they'd have to go back and add new flourishes to already existing songs, match them up so they sound the same as the old flourishes, etc. It is much more likely that they will add additional buffs/inspiration types (think outside the box here, people... it might not be limited to professions, but consider what kind of buffs you could give militia in your town, if they ever put usefulness back into them. Faction specific buffs. Buffs to inspire people to earn a little bit more from terminals.)

What concerns me is that this particular method is not imaginative enough, and is not immersive. Getting a system message telling you what flourishes to perform yanks you back out of the role of being a performer, and you become acutely aware of being part of a game design. This "leap of faith" has been ignored in so many aspects of the game, (read the mission descriptions for almost any mission/theme park), and all it is when you get to the mission is a lump in the ground with some mobs standing around.

Granted, you will not be able to completly erase the notion that you are playing a game (pop up windows and general interface for communication), but at some point you have to accept that in order to make the experience more exciting, it's got to be visually appealing, and in some way tied to what the essence of the profession is.

I (and a few others) still advocate the use of a design interface for the application of buffs. The random flourish method Warryr explains would be shown within the interface as to which song/dance to perform and string of flourishes to perform in order to apply the buff, and the buff to perform would be selected from a list. Another suggestion (to allow performers to use whatever song/dance and flourish string they'd choose) has been to eliminate the random flourishand forced song/dance, with simply a randomized list of buffs to attempt to prevent AFK macroing/keypressing of the buff interface.

I'd much rather see an entertaining interface than boring system messages which tell you what to do, regardless of the method used to apply a buff, it's got to be a solid way to make the buff experience FEEL as much like performing an inspiring song or dance that inspires the patron, rather than a system tool for modifying the skills ofa character.

They -could- make this content-based, by making the buffs questable objects or rewards for missions. They -could- create content specifically for entertainers (by which I mean musicians and dancers) to complete. (Think of this: You get a quest to perform for a group of nobles on their luxury cruiser. You have to launch into space and fly out to their cruiser and dock, which would load you into the ship and there are all the nobles to perform for. Proceed from there with the standard theater manager-type performance, or maybe you find out one of the nobles has something a little extra for a good performance. From here maybe you have to do a memory game, i.e. You do flourish 1, then flourish 1, 2... then 1, 2, 1, then 1, 2, 1, 5, then 1, 2, 1, 5, 6... etc. Get them all and you get the reward. Screw up and you complete the mission but don't get the special reward.) Really, any number of things are possible, and as this thread seems to grow larger, we're squabbling over how to apply buffs.

Think of an interface that would also allow you to program songs, and perhaps save them as text files for aliases (so people don't have to mess around with editing text files all the time, but could load it up and have a graphical interface for arranging flourishes and lyrics.)

So much can be done with our professions, and there are people saying "oh well, just lump them into one"... "reduce the skill point cost"... instead of coming up with new ways to take the professions and make them WORTH the skill point cost.

Don't give up hope on our professions! And especially don't get quagmired into an argument over silly things. Sure, I'd like to see a better interface for buffing, but any method is an improvement over what's been happening to us now.

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DanceRulez wrote:
* Has disturbing vision of possible end result of such a sytem when actually implemented by devs ... *

[system message] Player Killz-a-lot has requested a buff from you. To perform a combat buff, please flourish #1. To perform a crafting buff, please flourish #2. To deny this request please flourish #3.

[player performs flourish #1]

[system message] You have selected
[system message] COMBAT BUFF
[system message] If this is correct, please flourish #1, otherwise please flourish #2.

[player performs flourish #1]

[system message] To perform a melee buff, please flourish #1. To perform a ranged buff, please flourish #2. To return to the previous menu, please flourish #3. To abandon the buffing process at any time, please flourish #8 or simply log out.

...

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Mmmm I think the way it wourks is not that the person requests a buff, but that you offer them one.....

Gawd I could see it now.....

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Panthu wrote:

I pitched a bunch of "dance game" ideas, mainly as AFK counters until the In Dev came out with the Flo game and so many Dancers said "I don't want anything telling me how I should dance." Also there's a lot to be said for truly passive buffing (I finally came to realize) for the sake of performance.

Anyway, the one method I really liked when Caylin first dreamed up the Inspiration system was tied to the Dance, but it had a lot of choices and diversity. Animations would be broken down into groups based on the move and the dance style. So, we'd have: turns, leaps, jumps, side steps, etc - and then: club, classical, modern, etc.

So, you'd "build" a buff routine. It would be modular. Like, an AS buff would require two moves from either the jump or the leap group - then the to make it be an experimentation buff you'd need to use something from classical or club.

It would take a crafting like interface (or like the ID UI) to "build" these buffs and you would do it during "studio time", not on the fly out on the floor. The routines would be stored in your datapad like schematics though, and you could share them with other Dancers to do a sync performance while buffing.

We also talked about it being possible to do multiple buffs during one routine, possibly for a percentage decrease (like 80% AS Experimentation 20% Assembly instead of 100% both). Caylin talked about a buff bar that would make sure people didn't have on too many buffs at one, i.e. you'd have to cancel your 20% AS Assembly to pick up a 20% Tailor Experimentation or whatever.

Anyway, I still think this would be the ultimate way to do this.... but it would be a huge undertaking and I'd like to see these buffs sometimes soon, lol. So, however they come to us, I'll still like them.

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I.... LOVE... THIS... IDEA!!!

I particularly like breaking dances up into jumps, turns, leaps, and such, instead of "flourish one". They should re-do the entertainer quests like this too. "I don't like all that jumping and leaping around. I like something elegant, but not overly sexy." (Translation: No to tumble; yes to formal or lyrical -- but not for example flo 3 of lyrical, which is a jump of sorts -- and no exotic).

The problem with the way entertainer quests are now is, it's just number crunching. Grind 10 people, grind flourishes 3 and 5 of dances A and B, grind 20 people.... grind, grind. It requires ZERO knowledge of any dances and ZERO skill. I'd prefer it if the player had to really know the dances. "I like flourishes with lots of turns in them" would mean for instance, on the popular dance, flo 7 but not flo 1. See what I mean? You have to know your dances and their flourishes.

And that is why I like your buffing idea also. I like the idea of "building a routine". And the idea of putting 80% of the dance with say jumps and turns and 20% with side steps and pretty lights (or whatever) to get an 80/20 buff, is just a sweet idea. I like this a lot, because:

1. It allows all sorts of creativity and flexibility on the part of the dancers (and musicians, assuming they get something similar) -- which is what dance, which is an art form, should be about.

2. It encourages and rewards the building of an actual ROUTINE, over random flourishes, which is what a professional dancer should be doing.

3. It'd be damn hard to AFK macro because there are so many varieties that even if you could AFK-select your schematics and do them, the AS wanting that 80/20 buff might have to sit there through 20 routines to get to the one he wants -- and it'd be soooo much easier to just go to a live dancer and get the routine immediately.

4. It connects us to the game world in a real way, without stepping on the chefs' toes, since food is relatively "standard" and known while buffs can be varied from dancer to dancer, and thus may be better in some ways but less "reliable" in others.

I love it. THEY SHOULD DO THIS. Someone get out the lightsabers and go threaten the devs until they make it so.

C

Message Edited by Warryyr on 06-24-2005 10:55 AM

In addition, I'd rather have System Messages than some box that gets in the way of seeingmy character performing, or watching my audience. Even if it's opacity is adjustable.

And I think that choosing to buff someone through Entertainer abilities like flourishes would be a little more immersive than sliding some sliders or dropping down some boxes and selecting option on a box when someone says they want their rifles skills enhanced.

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Ikewe wrote:
I think part of the "inconvenience" is perhaps Dejah has already started the song when the buff request comes in. This means Dejah must choose to complete the performance and "risk" having the patron choose to get the enhancement from someone else and thus potentially lose the income and have future business impacted as well (by getting the reputation of being one of those "difficult entertainers") or choose to disrupt the performance.

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PoetD would say, and rightly so, that if my routine is any good the person probably won't object to letting me finish it before I go into the buffing. And however I may seem on the forums (ahem) I'm actually a nice person in game so I would normally stop and do the buff. My character is a novice doc and I have many times stopped a routine to do wound heals on people.

My concern is that this system of War's, although it is great at encouraging at-the-keys play, is also great at DIS-couraging routine building and creativity, which should be two fundamental elements of being a dancer or a musician.

I've always said my buffs or heals should (somehow, if they could figure out how) work BETTER if I perform a real routine than if I randomly flourish. This proposed system here is effectively saying, "Randomness is the way to go" which is the opposite of where I'd like to see our profession heading.

And now Panthu has shown me the somehow -- see her description a few posts up. THAT is how I would like to see a dancer/musician mini-game work. Not doing random flourishes at the prescribed time.

C

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Chessack wrote:

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Ikewe wrote:
I think part of the "inconvenience" is perhaps Dejah has already started the song when the buff request comes in. This means Dejah must choose to complete the performance and "risk" having the patron choose to get the enhancement from someone else and thus potentially lose the income and have future business impacted as well (by getting the reputation of being one of those "difficult entertainers") or choose to disrupt the performance.

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PoetD would say, and rightly so, that if my routine is any good the person probably won't object to letting me finish it before I go into the buffing. And however I may seem on the forums (ahem) I'm actually a nice person in game so I would normally stop and do the buff. My character is a novice doc and I have many times stopped a routine to do wound heals on people.

My concern is that this system of War's, although it is great at encouraging at-the-keys play, is also great at DIS-couraging routine building and creativity, which should be two fundamental elements of being a dancer or a musician.

I've always said my buffs or heals should (somehow, if they could figure out how) work BETTER if I perform a real routine than if I randomly flourish. This proposed system here is effectively saying, "Randomness is the way to go" which is the opposite of where I'd like to see our profession heading.

And now Panthu has shown me the somehow -- see her description a few posts up. THAT is how I would like to see a dancer/musician mini-game work. Not doing random flourishes at the prescribed time.

C

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However, if your flourishes determine how good your buff is, you've completely sacrificed your creative freedom for the sake of a mechanic that will silently dictate what's "better" or not. Any system that forces you to build a routine for a better buff will tell you how to perform, in order to provide a better buff. For an example, see the theater manager quests and how they "judge" you. Does it feel good? That's a similar method to how any game mechanic (visible or otherwise) will "judge" your buffing skills. In Panthu's example, a crafting buff would require say...a couple "groups" of steps to do. What if you hate those steps? What if you want to just dance something totally different to apply your buffs? What if you only like Footloose, and only certain steps in that dance? What if over 50% of the songs in Musician make you cringe from hearing them for over a year, like me?

My proposed system, I honestly feel, does nothing to discourage routine building and creativity. You have a minimal requirement of a few flourishes to set the proper buff, and the rest is up to you to perform. It seems 1 flourish is even too much for some folks. Whether it be in the idea of "tuning an instrument" or "limbering up before a performance," I think it would hardly make an impact on your performance, and only when you're buffing, and the entire rest of the performance is up to you to work out, to entertain your patron.

Well, back to the drawing board.

I only hope the Devs make something other than fully passive elite profession buffs, because if our Dancer and Musician buffs are handed over to bots (just ilke Inspiration buffs) after all we've seen happen to us, I will never look back. I will be done.

Thanks for the feedback folks, I truly appreciate your thoughts, and I hope someday we end up with something that satisfies everyone. I'm going to back out of this now, but feel free to continue discussing all you like.

Message Edited by Warryyr on 06-24-2005 11:10 AM

If I could walk into a cantina or hotel and be asked to provide a buff, go through the process of providing the buff, begin my routine and be able to complete a 5 minute routine without being interupted by anyone else asking for a buff..then your system would be ok. However, I think it is unlikely that anyone will ever be willing to wait until I finish performing a routine before starting their buff. I am pretty sure the devs have absolutely no intention for the buff application process to take as long as 5 minutes for the higher level buffs which they have planned for us.