Dancer Archive
Thread: Profession-specific Buffing: A Method
psikobunny wrote:
You really think they could come up with more than 16 differentuseful buffs? I don't, and I would much rather have a limited assortment of good buffs than a wide rangeof pointless crap.
Also, just because we have8 flos now, doesnt mean we're limited to that. In theory they couldadd flo #'s as high as they wanted, just recycle the animations.
It's a good concept Warryyr, uses existing code (the warm up bar is nice) and seems to preclude AFK.
Exactly.
The Devs at any time can either:
1) add more flourishes
2) Recategorize/redistribute buffs to assigned flourishes, there is no rule that Melee/Ranged/Entertainer/Crafting are IT. These are just example categories. The Devs could distribute any amount of buffs assigned to any flourishes *but* I'd prefer to keep the general categories as LOW as possible, so we're looking at *most* 5 total Flourishes to get the buff started. Add too many flourish-based categories, and suddenly we're looking at a minute's worth of time just to *start* the buff.
Example:
1 buff group could be Melee/Ranged
1 could be Crafting/Entertainer/Politician
1 could be Pilot/Creature Handler
the last could be for Jedi
Those groupings could be added to, or adjusted as desired. Get more than 4 flourish-specific groupings and just starting the buff would get too time-consuming, though.
And yeah, I like this because it's an attempt to use existing code (but modified a bit), and would make AFK an impossibility (no AFK'er can guage the random flourish assigned to the groups through any macro).
I fully understand that. I'm a DE as well.
psikobunny wrote:
My inner DE cringes at this one, sorry, but carrying extra stuff should be done by a droid or a vehicle, not a song.
Warryyr wrote:
My one suggestion for an enhancement is this - the temporary ability to carry MORE in your inventory. I'm thinking along the lines of +20 to inventory space. There should be *ample* warning to the player that their additional inventory space enhancement will be running out shortly, so they don't end up stuck somewhere and can't move because they are overloaded. This abiilty should be applied to all who visit cantinas and get enhancements - in the idea that they are about to go out adventuring, and likely it would be handy to hold more loot when they do so. In a similar fashion, if a crafter is about to craft, holding more resources/subcomponents in their inventory without worrying about shifting things around for more space would be handy.Not sure if that will fly, but thought I'd throw it out there.
Just an idea I wanted to throw out there lol.
Warryyr wrote:At the MOST, a Dancer or Musician would have to perform 5 flourishes that didn't have to do with their performance (Flourish 1, 2, 3, 4 and 8).
Well I can't speak for anyone else, but I would find this to be an unacceptable implementation format. I might not care quite as much for dances (though I still have "routines" I have worked out for those) but my music consists of SONGS, with verses, choruses, bridges, and lyrics. I am not going to do flourish 5 on the line, "You know when that wrix bites" (from the Ballad of Boba Fett) when it's supposed to be flourish 7. It'll ruin the song.
Plus, what happens when 5 different players all start watching, one after another? Am I going to have to do 5 game-mandated flourishes 5 times in a row? Now it's 25.
I fully appreciate, and applaud, your desire to make this something that cannot be AFKed or macroed, but I don't think forcing flourishes on us is the right way.
If they're going to force something, I'd rather it be the song or dance. I don't mind being told to "dance footloose 2 for a while". But I do mind being told, once dancing it, that I have to do what is someone else's idea of a good (or worse, totally random) flourish order.
If the game wants me to do rock, or if the patron asks for the buff that requires rock -- no problem. I have a song called "Clementine" (based on yet another Bobby Darin song from the 60s) all ready to go in an alias text file. I can just /load clementine.txt and /clementine, and off we go... and the patron gets buffed AND gets a fully rehearsed, properly 'scored' song. THAT, I can live with. Someone telling me, "While you sing Clementine you have to do THESE 5 flourishes to perform the buff," is not where I want to see us heading.
C
Esharra wrote:
To confirm: A system as you have described would require dancers and musicians to perform flourishes determined by the system, that they may not want to perform, in order for the correct buff to be applied.
Warryyr wrote:
Esharra wrote:
--Qilue-UCW-- wrote:
Esharra wrote:
Interesting idea. I particularly like the client-side stuff for the watcher. I doubt I would use a system that told me what flourishes to perform, however.
Everyone seems to be fixating on this, the systems is NOT telling you what flourished to perform, it is simply suing the flourished to pick the apprpriate buff.. after you have picked and confermed the buff you wish to apply you can do what ever flourishes you like
Quoted from Warryyr's post on Musician forum:
The patron listens to Warryyr's music, and Warryyr targets the patron and types /setperform to begin the buffing process.
Warryyr performs Flourish 1. A System Message appears saying, "Use Flourish 8 to confirm application of a Melee enhancement."
Warryyr knows the patron is looking for a Rifleman buff, so he tries again. He performs Flourish 2. A System Message appears saying, "Use Flourish 8 to confirm application of aCrafting enhancement."
Nope, still not what he wants to apply.
He performs Flourish 3. A System Message appears saying, "Use Flourish 8 to confirm application of anEntertainer enhancement."
Fourth time's the charm - he performs Flourish 4. A System Message appears saying, "Use Flourish 8 to confirm application of aRanged enhancement."
Bingo!Warryyr performs Flourish 8 to confirm this is the buff he'd like to apply. A System Message appears saying, "You begin to enhance the Rangedskills of %TT."
Looks to melike it tells Warryyr whatflourish he needs to perform in order to apply the buff the rifleman wants. Of course this is after having to go through several other choices (hope they're patient). Maybe you can point out to me what we're reading differently here.
I think Qilue had it right, Esharra.
This statement is true:
.. after you have picked and confermed the buff you wish to apply you can do what ever flourishes you like"
At the MOST, a Dancer or Musician would have to perform 5 flourishes that didn't have to do with their performance (Flourish 1, 2, 3, 4 and 8).
After finding the correct random flourish for the desired type of buff, and Flourish 8 confirms the desired buff to apply, the Dancer or Musician is free to perform any flourishes they like, any song/dance they like, so long as they remain performing the buff will continue to be applied.
You do *not* have to keep performing any flourish once you do the Flourish 1, 2, 3, or 4 + Flourish 8 combo.
Yes, the instigation of the buff will require you to quite possibly perform 5 flourishes you might not want to, but the rest is up to you.
Correct, however these slight inconveniences would be kept toaminimum as much as possible. More specific buffs could be added to fewer flourishes, to shorten up the required time/effort to apply the correct buff.
As someone mentioned in the Musician forum thread for this (where I wanted to keep feedback/discussion in, ah well 
) perhaps once you /setperform on someone, the system message instantly appear as:
Perform Flourish 1 for xxxxx buffs
Perform Flourish2 for xxxxx buffs
Perform Flourish3 for xxxxx buffs
Perform Flourish4 for xxxxx buffs
This would then lower the required "involuntary" buff to just ONE flourish, before any routine is started.
Chessack wrote:
Warryyr wrote:
At the MOST, a Dancer or Musician would have to perform 5 flourishes that didn't have to do with their performance (Flourish 1, 2, 3, 4 and 8).
Well I can't speak for anyone else, but I would find this to be an unacceptable implementation format. I might not care quite as much for dances (though I still have "routines" I have worked out for those) but my music consists of SONGS, with verses, choruses, bridges, and lyrics. I am not going to do flourish 5 on the line, "You know when that wrix bites" (from the Ballad of Boba Fett) when it's supposed to be flourish 7. It'll ruin the song.
Your song would NOT be ruined, just don't start your song until the buff has been started. If someone asks for a buff, tell them your song is almost over, then finish the song, start the buff, then start a new song.
Plus, what happens when 5 different players all start watching, one after another? Am I going to have to do 5 game-mandated flourishes 5 times in a row? Now it's 25.
You will NOT have to do 5 each time. The order of flourishes assigned to buffs is random. You may get it right the first time 2 times, then on the 3rd try, then right the next 2 times. In theory you could be required to root through 5 flourishes for 5 players in a row for a total of 25 flourishes, but in theory you could also flip a coin 25 times and get heads every single time. Statistically it can happen, but it's highly unlikely.
I fully appreciate, and applaud, your desire to make this something that cannot be AFKed or macroed, but I don't think forcing flourishes on us is the right way.
One of my focuses is to minimize the impact to performances with this, and I appreciate your feedback.
If they're going to force something, I'd rather it be the song or dance. I don't mind being told to "dance footloose 2 for a while". But I do mind being told, once dancing it, that I have to do what is someone else's idea of a good (or worse, totally random) flourish order.
Understood, and again thanks.
If the game wants me to do rock, or if the patron asks for the buff that requires rock -- no problem. I have a song called "Clementine" (based on yet another Bobby Darin song from the 60s) all ready to go in an alias text file. I can just /load clementine.txt and /clementine, and off we go... and the patron gets buffed AND gets a fully rehearsed, properly 'scored' song. THAT, I can live with. Someone telling me, "While you sing Clementine you have to do THESE 5 flourishes to perform the buff," is not where I want to see us heading.
C
And again, what I'm saying is- don't start singing Clementine until you've already started the buff. One or two or three random flourishes can easily be RP'd as "tuning" your instrument, and THEN you can launch into your song. And again, I appreciate your feedback in this.
Esharra wrote:
There is a psychological factor that comes into play when our gameplay is altered against what we would choose and soley to provide a benefit for others. We felt it when we had to overflo to keep up with the bots. That factor removes us from the role of entertainers and turns us into buff providers.
There is a requirement in any profession who provides to others that SOME fraction of their gameplay is altered or infringed upon, in order to provide their service.
If not, all crafting schematics would instantly appear in my datapad so I wouldn't have to use a tool, I wouldn't have to stop what I'm doing to heal others' wounds as a Doctor while others charge into battle, I wouldn't have to stand over someone for 30 seconds and be a sitting duck just to rez them.
I fully understand that in performance-based professions, anything that *could* infringe upon the performance is resisted. This is why one of my goals was to minimize impact to performances. I, for one, don't feel this would be that intrusive at all, if it were done right.
I honestly feel like the radial menu is already too cluttered - and it requires the use of a mouse which some folks don't like. So I don't know how viable that option is.
Unfortunately, I think it's a fact that any profession that provides benefits to others must make small sacrifices to do so. If we want to be buff providers, then we're going to have to be buff providers. And doing say may require sacrifices.
To anyone up in arms over this, it's just an idea I've had. There is no connection between me and the Devs, but I'd like to get the creative juices flowing on people and foster an attempt to discuss this.
If we're rumored to get profession-specific buffs, how can we do this in a comfortable way, and how can we minimize performance impact?
C
Warryyr wrote:
Now, let's say a patron enters the cantina and sees Warryyr with his Master Musician tag up. After being greeted by Warryyr, the patron goes over and asks Warryyr for a Rifleman buff. Warryyr is happy to oblige.
The patron listens to Warryyr's music, and Warryyr targets the patron and types /setperform to begin the buffing process.
Warryyr performs Flourish 1. A System Message appears saying, "Use Flourish 8 to confirm application of a Melee enhancement."
Warryyr knows the patron is looking for a Rifleman buff, so he tries again. He performs Flourish 2. A System Message appears saying, "Use Flourish 8 to confirm application of aCrafting enhancement."
Nope, still not what he wants to apply.
He performs Flourish 3. A System Message appears saying, "Use Flourish 8 to confirm application of anEntertainer enhancement."
Fourth time's the charm - he performs Flourish 4. A System Message appears saying, "Use Flourish 8 to confirm application of aRanged enhancement."
Bingo!Warryyr performs Flourish 8 to confirm this is the buff he'd like to apply. A System Message appears saying, "You begin to enhance the Rangedskills of %TT."
The patron sees what looks like a "warm-up timer bar" on his UI, a yellow bar slowly moving from left to right as the buff is being applied, until the meter is full and the bar turns green, with the words "Use /stoplisten or /stopwatch to accept the enhancement" appearing near the meter.
Upon typing /stoplisten or /stopwatch (or using the radial menu option on Warryyr), a system message appears to both parties of the interaction - to the patron, they see "Ranged enhancement has been applied by Warryyr." To the Entertainer, they see, "You enhance the Ranged skills of %TT."
After, of course, tipping Warryyr for his services, the patron now leaves the cantina in search of adventure.
Let's now say that an identical situation occurs - new patron, once again wanting a Ranged enhancement. Warryyr targets them and types /setperform.
Warryyr performs Flourish 1. A System Message appears saying, "Use Flourish 8 to confirm application of an Entertainerenhancement."
Note that in the previous application of buffs, Flourish 1 applied a Melee enhancement, now Flourish 1's enhancement has been randomly assigned to Entertainer enhancements.
Warryyr is looking for Ranged Enhancements, so he performs Flourish 2. A System Message appears saying, "Use Flourish 8 to confirm application of aRanged enhancement."
Bingo! He hits Flourish 8 to confirm the enhancement, and the buff proceeds as in the previous encounter.
That would work well.
Esharra wrote:
I'd prefer it be where only one request could be active at a time. And that the Cancel button be the default so one could run an auto-decline macro if they wish.
NeillM wrote:
hmm, I could see that working... I could also imagine getting a lot of these requests being rather annoying... my guess is some players could end up just trying to click through lots of boxes.
Maybe we wouldwant an auto decline option. I did initially think an auto accept option, but that would make the system very AFKable.
I pitched a bunch of "dance game" ideas, mainly as AFK counters until the In Dev came out with the Flo game and so many Dancers said "I don't want anything telling me how I should dance." Also there's a lot to be said for truly passive buffing (I finally came to realize) for the sake of performance.
Anyway, the one method I really liked when Caylin first dreamed up the Inspiration system was tied to the Dance, but it had a lot of choices and diversity. Animations would be broken down into groups based on the move and the dance style. So, we'd have: turns, leaps, jumps, side steps, etc - and then: club, classical, modern, etc.
So, you'd "build" a buff routine. It would be modular. Like, an AS buff would require two moves from either the jump or the leap group - then the to make it be an experimentation buff you'd need to use something from classical or club.
It would take a crafting like interface (or like the ID UI)to "build" these buffs and you would do it during "studio time", not on the fly out on the floor. The routines would be stored in your datapad like schematics though, and you could share them with other Dancers to do a sync performance while buffing.
We also talked about it being possible to do multiple buffs during one routine, possibly for a percentage decrease (like 80% AS Experimentation 20% Assembly instead of 100% both). Caylin talked about a buff bar that would make sure people didn't have on too many buffs at one, i.e. you'd have to cancel your 20% AS Assembly to pick up a 20% Tailor Experimentation or whatever.
Anyway, I still think this would be the ultimate way to do this.... but it would be a huge undertaking and I'd like to see these buffs sometimes soon, lol. So, however they come to us, I'll still like them.
The problem is that it is too hard to concentrate on all of this while at the same time actually doing anything else (like talking to the patron.) It is overly complicated busy work to avoid AFK use. That's the bottom line here... you're randomizing flourishes to stop the AFKers. So, we punish the ATK people in order to stop AFK.There has to be a better way... like, oh, I don't know, getting rid of AFK entertaining like they promised so long ago?
/shrug