Dancer Archive

I haven't piped in on any of this as it seemed like conversation has been going strong with it. Regardless of whether these ideas go to the 'trash bin,' the discussions around them always make clear things about what we want and how we want it. In this case, the opposition to *any* kind of lack of freedom in performance has been strongly voiced, whether it's a full performance or just one or two flourishes. It's also been re-emphasized how strongly we want to avoid another situation of bots, almost no matter what the cost.
So basically I'm saying, keep up the conversations and ideas. Really it's the devs' job to create stuff, and while occasionally players can be the source of what they make, I imagine more often it's them designing something to try to fit what the players needs are and what's good for the game (obviously, they don't always hit home with this, but I have to imagine that's what they strive for).

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Warryyr wrote:

In addition, I'd rather have System Messages than some box that gets in the way of seeingmy character performing, or watching my audience. Even if it's opacity is adjustable.

And I think that choosing to buff someone through Entertainer abilities like flourishes would be a little more immersive than sliding some sliders or dropping down some boxes and selecting option on a box when someone says they want their rifles skills enhanced.

I found the VERY few random flourishes in my process to be easily explainable RP-wise as "tuning your instruments" for Musicians, or "limbering up" for Dancers.

But, it looks like a couple flourishes is too much to ask, so back to the drawing board. Thanks for the feedback, everyone.

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it's a great idea. I have flourishes I don't like. I'm sure tailors have colors they don't like too but if they're offered money to craft something in that color they probably would. Don't alow yourself to be discouraged. Sometimes in any proffession you have to do things you don't want to do or you have to opt out of the reward for it. I wanted a trando pistol. I'd rather not have killed wookiees who escaped from slavery to get it but I'm shallow enough to do it for the weapon cause I realize theywere never actually enslaved and that really there's no such thing as a wookiee.

If theperformer can't find the right buff without doing the flourish they don't like it's easy enough to /changedance and try that flourish with a different dance. The reintroduction of /setperf can't be all that hard can it? 7 buffs is certainly enough to keep us busy (7 buff flourishes 1 confirm flourish)

Might I suggest the following as possible buffs:

1. XP Gain (all proffs)

2. Exprimentation Bonus ( all crafters)

3. Combat Speed (all combat moves to include healing)

4. Piloting Bonus (not sure what would help pilots)

5. Terrain Negotiation

6. Harvesting Bonus

7. Surveying Bonus

I think if we had something like that going on we'd find ourselves in high demand without being absolutely necesary in a way that causes resentment when there are no ents around.

I really like the warmup bar idea as a visual cue for both customer and entertainer, its way less intrusive than popup windows but more noticable than text messaging. I have to echo the sentiments of others in saying I dont want to be forced into any specific flourishes even, because there are dances I like that have flourishes I dont, so it would still hinder my choreography. I was thinking they'd implement this something more along the lines of additional buff commands that go along with any dance/music which you have to be currently performing to activate.

For example, an Armorsmith comes in to cantina, sees you performing and asks if he could have an armor experimentation buff. You keep right on playing your music how you were, but target him and type:

/setbuff armor_experimentation *customer name*

Both of you get the visual bar, yours indicating who you are buffing above it, his saying who is buffing him. There is no way you're going to macro that.


How to set up which skill boxes get which buffs so that younger entertainers have something valuable to provide is another question....Perhaps lesser versions of the buffs for combat, intending younger entertainers to buff younger fighters... For crafting buffs, +assembly or + experience in the lower boxes and +experimentation at the higher entertainer skill levels.


- Ish

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Chessack wrote:


PoetD would say, and rightly so, that if my routine is any good the person probably won't object to letting me finish it before I go into the buffing. And however I may seem on the forums (ahem) I'm actually a nice person in game so I would normally stop and do the buff. My character is a novice doc and I have many times stopped a routine to do wound heals on people.

C

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Well the majority of players on my server wouldn't give two credits how great your routine is (ask us how many times a buff bot was awarded "Best Entertainer"). They are very much a product of the ME!!!! generation. Half the time they can't wait5 seconds for you to train someone let alone finish a song or dance routine. And given some of the changes we've seen in the game I have to believe this isn't isolated to my server. Was a 5 minute wait for a shuttle really that game breaking? Might be time for a few people to lay off the crank if that's the case.

In my opinion, neither the entertainer nor the patron should be put into a situation where they have to make that choice. It's why I liked that the mind buff, and now the inspiration buff,didn't care what dance or song was performed. There were, and still are, parts of the situation I don't like. I've seen a lot of great ideas coming from my fellow entertainers and I'm hopeful the devs will be able to implement a system that appeals to entertainers of all styles.

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Aleyo wrote:
I haven't piped in on any of this as it seemed like conversation has been going strong with it. Regardless of whether these ideas go to the 'trash bin,' the discussions around them always make clear things about what we want and how we want it. In this case, the opposition to *any* kind of lack of freedom in performance has been strongly voiced, whether it's a full performance or just one or two flourishes. It's also been re-emphasized how strongly we want to avoid another situation of bots, almost no matter what the cost.
So basically I'm saying, keep up the conversations and ideas. Really it's the devs' job to create stuff, and while occasionally players can be the source of what they make, I imagine more often it's them designing something to try to fit what the players needs are and what's good for the game (obviously, they don't always hit home with this, but I have to imagine that's what they strive for).

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Heh, maybe the "trash bin" sounded too harsh. It's not a huge deal, just wanted to get some feedback kickin on people's perspectives on all of this, given that the Devs are likely starting the design process for us or will be soon.

My only concern is the requirement for some that we have nothing interfere with our performances, and I think the only solution to that is more passive buffing...and that can be botted. I don't want to be forced into a /covercharge war, trying to beat some AFK'ers price just for some income as an Entertainer. The cover charge makes me feel like I'm giving the patron a bill to pay, rather than getting any tip they'd like to offer. And it makes me feel like a vendor.

War --

Here is what Eshie means...

If the system let her walk into a hotel, buff, and then uninterrupted do her 5 minute dance routine (since the buff is over), she'd be fine with it. And technically the system lets her do that if either no one else comes in during that 5 minutes and asks for a buff, or she tells them to buzz off while she does her routine.

If in the 2nd minute of her routine someone comes in and asks for "Buff X" that requires her to random-flourish, she now has to /dump her dance, do the flourishes the game makes her do, and start it all over again... with the likely future result being to have to stop AGAIN before it's done... meaning she'll keep doing the same first half of her routine over and over again but never get to finish it.

Maybe that would not bother you, War... Or maybe you'd tell people to "Buzz off, I'm performing here," but for the rest of us, we just would not be happy in a system that required us to /dump half a routine or tell a patron to go take a long walk off a short pier (which is what you're doing when you say, "I'm not going to buff you till I get done with my performance").

See the thing is, we want our performances to be things that give buffs. We don't want it either-or. It's not that we are lazy or that (as you characterize it) we can't stomach doing a few random flourishes here or there. It's that in concept, in principle, we think that performances -- real performances and NOT random flourishes -- should be what works for buffing.

That's why I like Panthu's method. As the performer, you create the PERFORMANCE, which is designed to give whatever buff you want. You may have to put 3 jumps in for a ranged acc buff, but they can be any 3 jumps from any 3 dances you want. And if they make a nice graphical UI -- not out of what you do while dancing, but out of the "composition" phase -- that would mean that no longer do the best dancers have to also be "scripters" -- we could choose flourishes visually and put them into a schematic and that would be a "macro" we could then click to perform. The idea here is to make it so that PERFORMANCE == BUFF, rather than "flourish == buff" or even "time == buff." Panthu's system is the only one I have ever seen that even approximates that.

C

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Warryyr wrote:

My only concern is the requirement for some that we have nothing interfere with our performances, and I think the only solution to that is more passive buffing...and that can be botted. I don't want to be forced into a /covercharge war, trying to beat some AFK'ers price just for some income as an Entertainer. The cover charge makes me feel like I'm giving the patron a bill to pay, rather than getting any tip they'd like to offer. And it makes me feel like a vendor.

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I'm not sure I see why the only alternativeis a completely passive system, but let me just say that if the situation boils down to a choice between completely passiveor required flourish I'll gladly wave the white flag and accept that I'll have to be much more careful and diligent with my /changedance to avoid a flourish that makes me cringe or to avoid one that doesn't go with my outfit (high leg kicks in a short dress just aren't my style :smileywink. I think no matter what method we implement in order to prevent afktainers, someone will find it disrupts their game play. I personally liked the small, perodic screen I got while surveying and thought having one while dancing or playing music would be a good solution. Others are as opposed to that idea as I am to the required flourish for buffs. I'm fairly certain we'll never have a system that appeals to 100% of the entertainers out there. But as long as it's one that allows me to have have fun, feel like I'm involved in the Galaxy, and can't be afk'd then I'll call it a win.

I continue to fail to see how a couple of flourishes imposing upon a performance is a poorer choice than having a complete system dictate how you MUST perform in order to apply a buff, even if it's just at the level of requiring 3 generic jumps or bounces - what if you don't want to do any, ever? Nevermind, you're right - stopping mid-performance continually to have to perform random flourishes would suck eggs, when people kept showing up for buffs.

Well, hell, let's ditch the flourish idea.

How about 8 new icons we can click on that do NOTHING but establish the buff you're providing - mid-performance, pre-performance, whenever, whatever, you can target the patron and click these new icons, and they will achieve the ability to set your buff application just like how the flourish keys would have worked in my original idea? Clicking these would do nothing to your routine. Does thatdo anything foranyone? Totally unintrusive. Imagine the buff-setting capabilities in my proposed system moved into 8 new icons you could place on your toolbar. This allows you complete freedom in your performance, in thelength of performance, and there's no interruption mid-performance when new patrons show up or ask. I don't know what they'd be called (Method 1...Method 2...Method 3?).

In this way, it's not that your performance doesn't matter for the buff - your performance is solely for it's entertainment value, not dictated by anyone but your own imagination.

I do like the concept that routines could be wrapped up into something for the datapad, and traded...but it'd have to have a clone or copy option or something, or else you'd have to manually build 8 of them - 1 for you, and 7 for your groupmates. I'd prefer to get the routine down once, then copy it for friends in either a "step chart" or "sheet music" format.

Message Edited by Warryyr on 06-24-2005 03:05 PM

Something you need to tread very carefully near.... "Pilot Bonus"

There are only 2 skill mods in Pilot for a reason. JtL is meant to be reflex based. The 2 mods have to do with pilot specials and missile fire. Improving either would be a "useless buff" as Master gets nearly 100% success anyway. Any other buff that creates some form of mod for space, other than our basic Inspiration (much loved by Pilots btw, except when we have one while preparing to master a new squad ), would NOT be well received. I can guarantee that. Many of you are pilots too, and know this already, I'm just stating it clearly for those who may not know, and for any development people who peruse this thread.

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Warryyr wrote:

How about 8 new icons we can click on that do NOTHING but establish the buff you're providing - mid-performance, pre-performance, whenever, whatever, you can target the patron and click these new icons, and they will achieve the ability to set your buff application just like how the flourish keys would have worked in my original idea? Clicking these would do nothing to your routine. Does thatdo anything foranyone? Totally unintrusive.

It does a lot for me. I like it. I'm not worried about it giving me "too many buttons to click" and I don't macro my routines (macros can't compensate for varying lag conditionsas well as I can). Using ctrl and shift, I go all over the toolbar.

In this way, it's not that your performance doesn't matter for the buff - your performance is solely for it's entertainment value, not dictated by anyone but your own imagination.

That's the deal, I think. If we are supposed to be entertainers, then we need a situation where our ability toentertain is paramount. Anything that obstructs that ability toentertain changes our function from entertainers to something else. The new Inspirations will be more than enough to draw an audience when we feel like working the venues where Inspiration can be provided. I want to make sure we have as much freedom as possible to express our virtual artforms, regardless of additional functionality or venue.

I do like the concept that routines could be wrapped up into something for the datapad, and traded...but it'd have to have a clone or copy option or something, or else you'd have to manually build 8 of them - 1 for you, and 7 for your groupmates. I'd prefer to get the routine down once, then copy it for friends in either a "step chart" or "sheet music" format.

Heh..we need "virtual bar napkins".

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The only reason I'm personally against text messages (a la the system messages) is because it's just too... blah. I mean consider the difference a game of jubilee or lugjack would be if it were a graphical interface as opposed to the current text-based interface. Sure, it's functional now, but it's the extra bit of flair that would make it more enjoyable.

If a system like this could be designed where a flourish icon flashed on the screen in place of a system message to indicate which one to hit next, maybe it would be worthwhile. Or something along the lines of a (I shudder to even say this, but here goes) dance dance revolution, where you have to hit a flourish at the right time (any flourish would do, just as long as you keep the beat, maybe.)

I just so hate the reliance on text in places where text can just as easily have been graphical and much more enjoyable. Since a system message seems only to be text, that's why I naturally suggest a user interface, since they can be graphical in nature.

Besides which, the interface could be more like a "songbook" or "dance choreography" where flourishes are placed and songs/dances selected, the buff selected and applied, special effects/holoemotes entered, and lyrics entered as needed. The button to click on the bottom could be "perform", and once entered, the interface disappears and you begin the performace with or without the buff. If you could save these and recall them at will (maybe from the datapad... which would make the datapad limits worth something, as well as data-module enabled droids!), it would make for a better system for musicians and dancers overall, while still encompassing the other systems we should still be a part of.

This isn't metagaming, since the interface and system are used as if the musician were actually storing these things. Maybe make a craftable device (the songbook or choreography book) that use the droid engineer chips (the ones used for astromech/flight computers).

The one thing that we want to make sure of is that AFKing is somehow limited, which is another large concern of all ATK play-style musicians.

Nobody has to throw their ideas away, but they have to at least be open to new ideas (even if it means accepting an idea that has them play something that they don't like). (And certainly not getting angry and tossing ideas out the window outright.) If we want GOOD changes to happen, we have to present a solid front to the devs and be strong and support our unique and great professions, and to diversify the things we can do in the game. Sometimes that means making personal concessions for the betterment of the profession (or saving the profession outright), or else suffer the death and manglement of arguably one of the most imaginative sets of professions to date in a MMOG.

Message Edited by Steve_12_08 on 06-24-2005 05:55 PM

Message Edited by Steve_12_08 on 06-24-2005 05:56 PM

Message Edited by Steve_12_08 on 06-24-2005 06:00 PM

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Warryyr wrote:

My only concern is the requirement for some that we have nothing interfere with our performances, and I think the only solution to that is more passive buffing...and that can be botted. I don't want to be forced into a /covercharge war, trying to beat some AFK'ers price just for some income as an Entertainer. The cover charge makes me feel like I'm giving the patron a bill to pay, rather than getting any tip they'd like to offer. And it makes me feel like a vendor.

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Inever really liked the argument about tipping and "poor" musicians... especially since piloting is a free SP profession, and can be very lucrative (in fact, I'm 4333 privateer and was able to earn nearly 100k in short amount of time), but it would be nice to be tipped for the performances we create, since it is time that could be spent doing something else more lucrative. Covercharge is a way to make your time worth something, although it's not the best solution, it's a workable one.

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Warryyr wrote:Well, hell, let's ditch the flourish idea.

How about 8 new icons we can click on that do NOTHING but establish the buff you're providing - mid-performance, pre-performance, whenever, whatever, you can target the patron and click these new icons, and they will achieve the ability to set your buff application just like how the flourish keys would have worked in my original idea? Clicking these would do nothing to your routine. Does that do anything for anyone? Totally unintrusive. Imagine the buff-setting capabilities in my proposed system moved into 8 new icons you could place on your toolbar. This allows you complete freedom in your performance, in the length of performance, and there's no interruption mid-performance when new patrons show up or ask. I don't know what they'd be called (Method 1...Method 2...Method 3?).

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Pending working out the actual details, this would be highly preferable to me than the flourish method.

C